Still Think Maroney, Pees have to go?

[SoCalPatsfan90]

Corey Dillon is a career 4.29 ypc guy. He fumbled once every 93 carries and averaged 12 yards receiving per game on 1.6 receptions per game.

Lawrence Maroney is a career 4.31 ypc guy. He has fumbled once in 450 carries. He averages 10 yards receiving per game on .9 receptions per game.


Again, the issue isn't him being good, its him being healthy. He is good.

Should preface that with the fact that Maroney's only in his 4th year, and should maybe average against Dillons first 4 years for a real look.

Secondly, Dillon only had 1 season with NE above 1000yd...

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Corey Dillon is a career 4.29 ypc guy. He fumbled once every 93 carries and averaged 12 yards receiving per game on 1.6 receptions per game.

Lawrence Maroney is a career 4.31 ypc guy. He has fumbled once in 450 carries. He averages 10 yards receiving per game on .9 receptions per game.


Again, the issue isn't him being good, its him being healthy. He is good.

Please don't compare Maroney to Dillon. You are embarrassing yourself.

Your little canned stats are not enough to equate a Probowl RB with a long and successfull career to Lawrence Maroney, a dissapointing high round draft pick with a short injury riddled and subpar career thus far.

Not to mention that most of us watched Dillon carry the load even at the end of his career... something Maroney has never been able to do for even half a season.

I am not a Maroney hater and I am still on the fence as to whether or not he is going to pan out and be our #1 back. I just think comparing him to Dillon is laughable.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: (Title Change) Still Think Maroney, Pees have to go?

I hope he proves me wrong but 3 seasons of disappointing or injured play doesn't fill me with a lot of hope.

quote]
God forbid you let facts get in the way of a good argument.
In 2006 you could not find a critic. He had an excellent rookie season teamed with Dillon.
In 2007 he averaged 4.5 a carry, was our leading rusher, and we were 18-1.
In 2008 he was injured.
When were the 3 seasons of disappointing or injured play?

 

[Deus Irae]

Please don't compare Maroney to Dillon. You are embarrassing yourself.

Your little canned stats are not enough to equate a Probowl RB with a long and successfull career to Lawrence Maroney, a dissapointing high round draft pick with a short injury riddled and subpar career thus far.

Not to mention that most of us watched Dillon carry the load even at the end of his career... something Maroney has never been able to do for even half a season.

I am not a Maroney hater and I am still on the fence as to whether or not he is going to pan out and be our #1 back. I just think comparing him to Dillon is laughable.

In 2006, Dillon had 199 carries. Maroney had 175.

Dillon "carried the load" with 209 carries in 2005 while Maroney apparently didn't "carry the load" with 185 carries in 2007.

So, doing the math.... "carry the load" kicks in somewhere between 186 and 199 carries?

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Maroney, Pees have to go

I think this is the underlying problem with this fanbase as presently constituted. Too many armchair fans of wanting to be right and not enough actual fans of wanting to see this team win.

What's even more risible is that it conflicts with Bruschi's analysis of the game. He said that inclement weather makes it even more difficult for a back like Maroney because, with the slippery field, you can't reset your feet; you just have to make a cut and go. And yet we have the geniuses on this forum claiming that the winter weather made Maroney look better than he actually is.

 

[Ring 6]

Corey Dillon is a career 4.29 ypc guy. He fumbled once every 93 carries and averaged 12 yards receiving per game on 1.6 receptions per game.

Lawrence Maroney is a career 4.31 ypc guy. He has fumbled once in 450 carries. He averages 10 yards receiving per game on .9 receptions per game.


Again, the issue isn't him being good, its him being healthy. He is good.

There is another issue.
Everyone wants Maroney to run for 1500 yards or be declared a bust.
BB simply isnt going to do that. Before 2006 when he saw the value of having 2 RBs (and saw both injured at playoff time) he has decided that the most important characteristic at RB is depth. It looks like he will never hand the ball to anyone 25 times a game. No matter who is on the active roster, no RB typically plays more than 2-3 consecutive drives, and at least 2 split the time roughly in half. When all were healthy it was Maroney and Taylor, and even Morris got a carry or 2. Then it was Maroney and Morris now its Maroney and BJGE. Whichever 2 are healthy are going to basically split the job, apparently so none wear down.
People want to use that as a criticism of Maroney, but it just isnt.

 

[Ring 6]

In 2006, Dillon had 199 carries. Maroney had 175.

Dillon "carried the load" with 209 carries in 2005 while Maroney apparently didn't "carry the load" with 185 carries in 2007.

So, doing the math.... "carry the load" kicks in somewhere between 186 and 199 carries?

There you go bringing facts into the argument. Come on, everyone knows Joe Agenda knows football and numbers lie,

 

[Deus Irae]

There is another issue.
Everyone wants Maroney to run for 1500 yards or be declared a bust.
BB simply isnt going to do that. Before 2006 when he saw the value of having 2 RBs (and saw both injured at playoff time) he has decided that the most important characteristic at RB is depth. It looks like he will never hand the ball to anyone 25 times a game. No matter who is on the active roster, no RB typically plays more than 2-3 consecutive drives, and at least 2 split the time roughly in half. When all were healthy it was Maroney and Taylor, and even Morris got a carry or 2. Then it was Maroney and Morris now its Maroney and BJGE. Whichever 2 are healthy are going to basically split the job, apparently so none wear down.
People want to use that as a criticism of Maroney, but it just isnt.

People ignore the data when it runs up against their pre-formed opinions. Dillon carried the ball 345 times in 2004. That was pretty clearly a 'workhorse' type of season for a running back. However, since then, no Patriots running back has carried the ball more than 209 times, and that includes Dillon in his last two seasons. Hell, last season, Maroney was lost for the year early on, and had only 28 carries all season, and Morris ended up leading the team with 156 carries even though the team had its highest carry total since 2004.

It's much easier to just call Maroney out, though, because it doesn't require the effort of looking anything up.

 

[JMarr]

He has fumbled once in 450 carries. He averages 10 yards receiving per game on .9 receptions per game.

These are Maroney's best attributes by far IMO. He does NOT turn the ball over. I think Belichick is still running Maroney out there mainly because of injuries, plus the fact he can trust him not to fumble while he's trying, mostly in vain, to keep defenses honest by running the ball.

Maroney was absolutely horrible on Sunday. One decent run and a 1 yard run untouched into the endzone. Wow, you would think we have found a future HOF'er by reading some of the inane posts in this thread. He was great against Tennessee, in the snow, against a team that had truly quit playing after the first 10 minutes. In the Tampa game, his dancing was literally painful to watch. If he is getting better at hitting holes, you sure didn't see it on Sunday and I have only seen it rarely this season.

Statistics can lie as much as they tell the truth. 99% of the posts defending Maroney just throw YPC stats out there as an argument. 50% of these posts use comparisons to BJGE to make their point (!!!) Absolute fail. BJGE is a bottom tier RB who is only on an NFL active roster because of injuries to his team. C'mon people, at least BJGE carries defenders for an extra yard or two when he's tackled. Maroney is servicable--nothing more. Perhaps comparisons to the way the ancient Fred Taylor runs the ball are more apt than those to BJGE.

 

[Deus Irae]

These are Maroney's best attributes by far IMO. He does NOT turn the ball over. I think Belichick is still running Maroney out there mainly because of injuries, plus the fact he can trust him not to fumble while he's trying, mostly in vain, to keep defenses honest by running the ball.

Maroney was absolutely horrible on Sunday. One decent run and a 1 yard run untouched into the endzone. Wow, you would think we have found a future HOF'er by reading some of the inane posts in this thread. He was great against Tennessee, in the snow, against a team that had truly quit playing after the first 10 minutes. In the Tampa game, his dancing was literally painful to watch. If he is getting better at hitting holes, you sure didn't see it on Sunday and I have only seen it rarely this season.

Statistics can lie as much as they tell the truth. 99% of the posts defending Maroney just throw YPC stats out there as an argument. 50% of these posts use comparisons to BJGE to make their point (!!!) Absolute fail. BJGE is a bottom tier RB who is only on an NFL active roster because of injuries to his team. C'mon people, at least BJGE carries defenders for an extra yard or two when he's tackled. Maroney is servicable--nothing more. Perhaps comparisons to the way the ancient Fred Taylor runs the ball are more apt than those to BJGE.

Actually, people used the comparisons to BJGE for 2 reasons:

1.) BJGE was the other running back being used by the Patriots during the game

2.) People here were howling earlier because they wanted Maroney benched and BJGE to get the carries in his place.

As for how Maroney was on Sunday, given the way the line was playing and the complete lack of success for the non 'dancing' running back, any non-Patriots player or coach who is complaining about the 'dancing' should probably be barred from ever commenting on running backs. It's one thing to complain about 'dancing' when others are running differently with more success. That, at least, leaves room for a discussion. It's another entirely, though, when the "hit the hole even if it's not there" style is yielding less than a 1 yard per carry average.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Maroney was absolutely horrible on Sunday. One decent run and a 1 yard run untouched into the endzone.

For starters, why don't you go and watch the previous play- the one that got them down to the 1 yard line in the first place...

 

[CheerforTom]

I respect that so many of you use pages of stats to try and defend Maroney, but no stat is going to make up for the fact that when we bring him in on 3rd and short I have no confidence that we will convert if we give him the ball.

Blame whatever you want, but you might want to rewatch Taylor this year or back to Dillon running the ball. They ran guys over, they went hard into tackles. They didn't need to blame the line for not opening huge holes.

 

[Deus Irae]

I respect that so many of you use pages of stats to try and defend Maroney, but no stat is going to make up for the fact that when we bring him in on 3rd and short I have no confidence that we will convert.

Blame whatever you want, but you might want to rewatch Taylor this year or back to Dillon running the ball. They ran guys over, they went hard into tackles. They didn't need to blame the line for not opening huge holes.

You are correct. No stat, no matter how telling, can change your emotional response to something. Maroney could have a 100% success rate on 3rd and short, and you could still have no confidence that he would convert. Emotional responses are not the product of rational thought.

However, BradyFTW! has some compelling success rate data on this sort of thing from earlier threads. You might try doing a search. Perhaps that will help with your emotional state, even though it cannot, of itself, change your emotional response.

 

[CheerforTom]

In 2006, Dillon had 199 carries. Maroney had 175.

Dillon "carried the load" with 209 carries in 2005 while Maroney apparently didn't "carry the load" with 185 carries in 2007.

So, doing the math.... "carry the load" kicks in somewhere between 186 and 199 carries?

This is a pretty good example of how stats can be misleading if presented without context.

Do you really think there was no difference in the dynamic of our offense between 2005 and 2007? With that passing offense, that made such prolific use of play-action? Maroney had almost as many carries as Dillon, but do you REALLY think they were the same kind of carries that Dillon was seeing?

By the way, being a football fan isn't the product of rational thought, either.

 

[Ring 6]

I respect that so many of you use pages of stats to try and defend Maroney, but no stat is going to make up for the fact that when we bring him in on 3rd and short I have no confidence that we will convert if we give him the ball.

Blame whatever you want, but you might want to rewatch Taylor this year or back to Dillon running the ball. They ran guys over, they went hard into tackles. They didn't need to blame the line for not opening huge holes.

The fact that you like someone elses running style better is irrelevant to the results that they achieve.
This is the anti-Maroney mantra, he dances.
The fact is that Maroney's running style is to hesitate when the hle is not there, in order to allow it to open. You would rather he put his head down and bull into blockers and tacklers and gain nothing.
Why is that? Do you feel more secure in your criticism if you can make it about his manhood? Because that certainly is not the issue, yet the anti-Maroneys consistently want to make it that. Just to clarify: If Maroney were afraid of tacklers he would have a different profession.
When Maroney rips off the 50 yard TD run vs Tenn, it happened BECAUSE he read the blocking and let the hole develop. A bull runner would have gained 4. On many of Maroney's runs his style creates more yards, on many it does not. The end result is that Maroney, on average, rushes for a very good yards per carry. Now others have tried to call that a boom or bust phenomenon but that has been proven wrong.

I think the entire Maroney argument comes down to some fans being demonstrative and overly vocal because they can question Maroney manhood. He must be a ****y if he wont bang his head into the line and gain nothing. If you do that its the blocking, if you try to make something out of nothing and still get nothing, its the running.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is a pretty good example of how stats can be misleading if presented without context.

Do you really think there was no difference in the dynamic of our offense between 2005 and 2007? With that passing offense, that made such prolific use of play-action? Maroney had almost as many carries as Dillon, but do you REALLY think they were the same kind of carries that Dillon was seeing?

By the way, being a football fan isn't the product of rational thought, either.

Because the raw numbers eviscerate an argument, they are "misleading"? Unfortunately for that sort of assertion:

1.) There's no supporting evidence being offered

2.) I wasn't the one who made the "carries the load" claim.

3.) In 2006, Dillon and Maroney were on the team at the same time and got just about the same number of rushes, receptions and overall touches (Dillon: 199 carries, 15 receptions, 214 total touches compared to Maroney's 175 carries, 22 receptions, 197 total touches, with Maroney having a higher YPG in both rushing and receiving), which clearly destroys the "carries the load" argument.

Your claim does back up what I mean about emotional response versus rational thought, though, so thanks for the example.

Also, as for the notion that being a football fan is not the product of rational thought, I disagree, at least in my case. I know precisely how and why I became a fan of every sport and team that I happen to be a fan of, and there is only 1 instance of that happening as a result of anything one could consider not being rational.

 

[eagle eye]

The fact that you like someone elses running style better is irrelevant to the results that they achieve.
This is the anti-Maroney mantra, he dances.
The fact is that Maroney's running style is to hesitate when the hle is not there, in order to allow it to open. You would rather he put his head down and bull into blockers and tacklers and gain nothing.
Why is that? Do you feel more secure in your criticism if you can make it about his manhood? Because that certainly is not the issue, yet the anti-Maroneys consistently want to make it that. Just to clarify: If Maroney were afraid of tacklers he would have a different profession.
When Maroney rips off the 50 yard TD run vs Tenn, it happened BECAUSE he read the blocking and let the hole develop. A bull runner would have gained 4. On many of Maroney's runs his style creates more yards, on many it does not. The end result is that Maroney, on average, rushes for a very good yards per carry. Now others have tried to call that a boom or bust phenomenon but that has been proven wrong.

I think the entire Maroney argument comes down to some fans being demonstrative and overly vocal because they can question Maroney manhood. He must be a ****y if he wont bang his head into the line and gain nothing. If you do that its the blocking, if you try to make something out of nothing and still get nothing, its the running.

Very well put Andy.

Deus you are doing a good job too, but this is better imo.

 

[Synovia]

I respect that so many of you use pages of stats to try and defend Maroney, but no stat is going to make up for the fact that when we bring him in on 3rd and short I have no confidence that we will convert if we give him the ball.

So, despite the fact that Maroney is the best running back in power situations on the team (he is, look it up), you don't believe.

Basically, you don't care what the facts say.

Blame whatever you want, but you might want to rewatch Taylor this year or back to Dillon running the ball.

Taylor? Taylor? Twinkle-toes Taylor? For real? Do you even watch football?

 

[Ring 6]

This is a pretty good example of how stats can be misleading if presented without context.

Do you really think there was no difference in the dynamic of our offense between 2005 and 2007? With that passing offense, that made such prolific use of play-action? Maroney had almost as many carries as Dillon, but do you REALLY think they were the same kind of carries that Dillon was seeing?

By the way, being a football fan isn't the product of rational thought, either.

Wait a minute. So now Dillons carrys were more important than Maroneys?
You like Dillon better so therefore his carries were a different 'kind' than Maroneys? They WERE the kind that went for fewer yards on average, but I think you were trying to say something like:
Dillons carries were the key to the offense, they set Brady up for all the success he had. If it weren't for Dillon, we couldn't have passed.
Oh and Maroney ran the ball too, but those didnt matter.

Nice.

 

[Kontradiction]

You guys that are defending Maroney still haven't figured it out yet? Here, let me break it down for you...

1. Lawfirm runs into a pile of defensive linemen for a loss, and it's all the O-Line's fault.

2. Maroney runs into a pile of defensive linemen for a loss, and he is a bust.

The formula is that simple. Now we get to hear about how Maroney is a first rounder and Lawfirm wasn't, which is supposed to somehow mean that Maroney is supposed to barrell through 300+ pounders while Lawfirm isn't.