Still Think Maroney, Pees have to go?

[Deus Irae]

You guys that are defending Maroney still haven't figured it out yet? Here, let me break it down for you...

1. Lawfirm runs into a pile of defensive linemen for a loss, and it's all the O-Line's fault.

2. Maroney runs into a pile of defensive linemen for a loss, and he is a bust.

The formula is that simple. Now we get to hear about how Maroney is a first rounder and Lawfirm wasn't, which is supposed to somehow mean that Maroney is supposed to barrell through 300+ pounders while Lawfirm isn't.

But this time, I'm enjoying the "carries the load" argument. It's a different approach to take in attacking Maroney, even if it's also wrong when applied to the context. At least it's got a valid point in comparing the way the Patriots (and many other teams in the league today) are using their running backs to the way teams traditionally handled the running back position.

 

[mcsully]

Wow.. Just Wow.. I am awestruck on peoples opinions about Maroney.. Freaking blown away..

Maroney is an average RB at BEST.. He dances like Vanilla Ice and hits the hole like a 70 year old woman.. Yes he's had a couple of good weeks against WINLESS TEAMS.. Whats even better is he just had his 1st TD in almost 2 years.. 2 YEARS! Comparing him to the LAW FIRM is a joke.. ONe was an undrafted rookie and the other was a 1st round pick.. Law Firm does one thing AVERAGE (not great, not good.. just average) and that's running str8 ahead..

Maroney is a 1st round pick that will NEVER live up to his drafting status.. NEVER.. We missed out on drafting DeAngelo Williams, Addai, White, Jones-Drew, Leon Washington.. All better players.. Of course hindsight is 20/20.. So I won't go any further but the fact is Maroney will never be better than the guys i just mentioned..


Listen I know I'm going to get picked apart for having a different opinion.. So be it.. But you can throw numbers at us all day.. Remember this.. He has the advantage of Tom Brady, Wes Welker and Randy moss.. They stretch the field.. Its a pass 1st offense, which should loosen up the line for him to hit the hole..

Two things I want to State here..

1. Our offense is built around the pass and Maroney has little effect on it..

2. You all want to point out "are we watching the same game", "go back and watch the tape"... Well GO BACK and watch his ONE yard TD run against Tampa.. Watch how he hesitates and skips then hits the hole.. THAT IS HORRIBLE RUNNING!! You never Hesitate on the 1, you hit the hole and put your shoulders down..


BTW we can debate all we want but the fact is we wonj't know until the Pats either extend him or dump him.. I'm in the camp where they will dump him..

 

[Synovia]

Whats even better is just had his 1st TD in almost 2 years.. 2 YEARS!

You mean, just like Tom Brady? Tom Brady threw no touchdown passes between Feb 2008 and September 2009. Thats like 18 months.

Maroney had no TDs between Feb 2008 and Oct 2009. Thats such a huge difference.

 

[Deus Irae]

BTW we can debate all we want but the fact is we wonj't know until the Pats either extend him or dump him.. I'm in the camp where they will dump him..

That won't resolve the issue one way or the other.

 

[Synovia]

Law Firm does one thing AVERAGE (not great, not good.. just average) and that's running str8 ahead..

The only thing Law Firm does average is take up a roster slot.

 

[JMarr]

For starters, why don't you go and watch the previous play- the one that got them down to the 1 yard line in the first place...

That was the one good run that I was referring to....in the entire game. (The TD was nice and all, but my 6 year-old son could have scored on that play.)

Look, I like Maroney and still think he's a very important part of the overall equation. This may sound too "emotional" for some and pardon my choice of words, but it was just beyond frustrating to watch him l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y dancing against Tampa just when it appeared like he was beginning to get it--indecisive, hesitant; just waiting to get swallowed up. Some times his hesitation pays off and the holes open up. More often than not, they don't, he doesn't see them, or the hesitation kills his momentum too much for him to burst, and you have a negative play. My .02 but I really think we need Taylor or Morris back for the next part of the schedule.

ok, enough on Maroney for me, god help us all.

 

[mcsully]

You mean, just like Tom Brady? Tom Brady threw no touchdown passes between Feb 2008 and September 2009. Thats like 18 months.

Maroney had no TDs between Feb 2008 and Oct 2009. Thats such a huge difference.

I don't need to tell you Brady has been injured once in his 9 year career.. Maroney.. Every Year..

 

[mcsully]

That won't resolve the issue one way or the other.

It should.. If the Pats dump himi prior to his contract running out.. Its safe to say they didn't think much of him..

 

[Synovia]

More often than not, they don't, he doesn't see them, or the hesitation kills his momentum too much for him to burst, and you have a negative play

Except thats not factually correct. Maroney has one of the lowest rates in the NFL of runs for a loss. Lower than Adrian Peterson. He has one of the highest rates in the NFL of "successful runs" (runs of over 40% of yards on 1st down, 60% on 2nd, 100% on third) in the NFL.


You wanna see a guy who loses yards more often than not, look at.... Benjarvus Green Ellis. Or, Chris Johnson.

 

[Synovia]

I don't need to tell you Brady has been injured once in his 9 year career.. Maroney.. Every Year..

Maroney has been injured once. He broke his shoulder, and it caused him to miss big chunks of 2007, and all of 2008.

 

[emoney_33]

Why is it that the Maroney detractors say things like "my 6 year-old son could have..." or "like a 70 year old woman" and then expect to be taken seriously?

I've gotten really sick of the old and tired "forget the facts, this is how I want it to be!" arguments. We get it, we get it, positive yardage from Maroney means there was a hole the size of texas and the defenders all just fell down while any subpar running play is because Maroney was fixing his nails and practicing for dancing with the stars in the backfield. Yadda yadda yadda, either bring some legit facts to the table or get over it.

BTW, BB doesn't hesitate to drop players that do not help the team (see: CJ, KOC).

 

[Synovia]

Courtesy of Football Outsiders:
NFL Runnings Backs by Success rate: 55+ Carries

R.Williams 66%
M.Bell 60%
R.Brown 57%
R.Mendenhall 56%
P.Thomas 54%
K.Moreno 54%
M.Barber 53%
J.Stewart 53%
R.Grant 53%
A.Bradshaw 53%
R.Rice 52%
M.Jones-Drew 51%
L.Maroney 51%
J.Addai 50%
D.Williams 50%
A.Peterson 48%
F.Jackson 47%
M.Bush 46%
M.Turner 46%
C.Benson 46%
B.Jacobs 44%
S.Jackson 44%
J.Harrison 44%
T.Jones 43%
W.Parker 42%
C.Portis 41%
L.McCoy 41%
J.Jones 41%
K.Smith 40%
C.Johnson 38%
M.Forte 35%
L.Washington 35%
L.Tomlinson 34%
M.Lynch 34%
J.Lewis 34%
C.Williams 33%
L.Johnson 33%
G.Coffee 32%
S.Slaton 30%


NFL Runnings Backs By DVOA:

R.Rice 37%
R.Williams 33%
R.Brown 27%
P.Thomas 24%
A.Bradshaw 21%
M.Barber 18%
L.Maroney 16%
R.Mendenhall 14%
M.Bell 11%
R.Grant 11%
A.Peterson 11%
M.Jones-Drew 9%
C.Benson 7%
D.Williams 7%
C.Johnson 6%
T.Jones 5%
J.Stewart 3%
C.Williams 1%
S.Jackson 0%
J.Addai -2%
M.Bush -2%
K.Moreno -5%
L.Washington -8%
C.Portis -8%
B.Jacobs -9%
M.Turner -11%
J.Jones -11%
J.Harrison -12%
F.Jackson -12%
J.Lewis -17%
M.Lynch -19%
K.Smith -21%
L.McCoy -22%
L.Tomlinson -22%
W.Parker -34%
L.Johnson -34%
M.Forte -35%
G.Coffee -41%
S.Slaton -48%




Ben Jarvus Green Ellis has a 2.9% DVOA.

 

[Deus Irae]

It should.. If the Pats dump himi prior to his contract running out.. Its safe to say they didn't think much of him..

He could have been "dumped" already, the way O'Connell was, which is the problem with that argument. Furthermore, not all players that this team decides to "dump" fail in the league. They "dumped" Greg Spires, for example, and he went on to have a pretty nice career for himself.

On the other side of the ledger, Sanders got a new contract, as have players like Light, Kaczur, Seymour, etc... Have those contracts stopped the bashers of those players from griping?

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

In 2006, Dillon had 199 carries. Maroney had 175.

Dillon "carried the load" with 209 carries in 2005 while Maroney apparently didn't "carry the load" with 185 carries in 2007.

So, doing the math.... "carry the load" kicks in somewhere between 186 and 199 carries?

I'm sorry, did I miss Maroney's season where he racked up 1635 yards rushing and 12 TDs? Did I miss Maroney rushing for over 1000 yds 5 seasons IN A ROW and going to the probowl 3 of those years? That is carrying the load, not having your best season be 833 rushing yards... coinciding with a passing attack that was one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Dillon acheived in one season (2004) almost as much as Maroney has in his entire career (1938 Rushing yards and 14 rushing TDs).

Let me know when Maroney has even ONE season with over 1000 rushing yards or over 10 rushing TDs, let alone making a career of it.

The attempt by Synovia to equate the two are pathetic and your cherry picked stats are insufficient to support the claim.

As I stated, this is not an attack on Maroney, but on the feeble attempt to compare him favorably to Corey Dillon.

I hope Maroney pans out... he has shown flashes and I have not given up on him yet. With so many injuries this year at RB, he has the opportunity to prove himself.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Maroney has been injured once. He broke his shoulder, and it caused him to miss big chunks of 2007, and all of 2008.

Maroney injured his shoulder September 14th, 2008 against the Jets. He was placed on IR October 20th. It did not cause him to miss "big chunks of 2007". He had a groin injury that caused him to miss 3 games in october of 2007... perhaps that is what you are thinking of.

So for the record, that is at least 2 injuries.... not that it means anything.

 

[Synovia]

Did I miss Maroney rushing for over 1000 yds 5 seasons IN A ROW and going to the probowl 3 of those years?

I missed how thats relevant to Dillon's time with the Patriots.

That is carrying the load, not having your best season be 833 rushing yards... coinciding with a passing attack that was one of the best in the history of the NFL.

I missed how "carrying the load" is important, but, in that light, why did Dillon Lose his "carrying the load"-edness immediately when Maroney showed up?

Dillon acheived in one season (2004) almost as much as Maroney has in his entire career (1938 Rushing yards and 14 rushing TDs).

So? Maroney has been part of a comittee. Dillon wasn't (until Maroney showed up), and thats partly because we didn't have anyone else.

Let me know when Maroney has even ONE season with over 1000 rushing yards or over 10 rushing TDs, let alone making a career of it.

Let me know when getting 250 carries has anything to do with winning.

Your attempts to equate the two are pathetic and your cherry picked stats are insufficient to support the claim.

As are yours.

As I stated, this is not an attack on Maroney, but on the feeble attempt to compare him favorably to Corey Dillon.

Like I showed earlier: Maroney's rate stats are better than Dillon's. He compares favorably in every single way except that he hasn't been in the NFL for 10 years.

 

[Synovia]

Maroney injured his shoulder September 14th, 2008 against the Jets. He was placed on IR October 20th. It did not cause him to miss "big chunks of 2007". He had a groin injury that caused him to miss 3 games in october of 2007... perhaps that is what you are thinking of.

So for the record, that is at least 2 injuries.... not that it means anything.

And it was later released that Maroney played most of 2007 with a shoulder injury that they kept quiet.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm sorry, did I miss Maroney's season where he racked up 1635 yards rushing and 12 TDs. Did I miss Maroney rushing for over 1000 yds 5 seasons IN A ROW and going to the probowl 3 of those years? That is carrying the load, not having your best season be 833 rushing yards... coinciding with a passing attack that was one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Dillon acheived in one season (2004) almost as much as Maroney has in his entire career (1938 Rushing yards and 14 rushing TDs).

Let me know when Maroney has even ONE season with over 1000 rushing yards or over 10 rushing TDs, let alone making a career of it.

Your attempts to equate the two are pathetic and your cherry picked stats are insufficient to support the claim.

As I stated, this is not an attack on Maroney, but on the feeble attempt to compare him favorably to Corey Dillon.

I hope Maroney pans out... he has shown flashes and I have not given up on him yet. With so many injuries this year at RB, he has the opportunity to prove himself.

I don't care whether or not you claim it was an attack on Maroney. I care that your assertion was wrong:

Not to mention that most of us watched Dillon carry the load even at the end of his career... something Maroney has never been able to do for even half a season.

Dillon did not "Carry the load" in his last two seasons as a Patriot (2005 and 2006) any more than Maroney "Carried the load" in 2006 and 2007, unless "carry the load" kicks in somewhere between 186 and 199 carries. That's just the reality of the situation.

As for the "cherry picked stats", you are the one who defined the parameters, not me:

even at the end of his career... something Maroney has never been able to do for even half a season.

I didn't cherry pick anything.

 

[Boots Electric]

The common talking points that people use to discredit Maroney (in bold and italics):


He always hesitates and never goes through the hole which always leads to negative yards!

As other posters have pointed out, not true. Maroney has one of the lowest rates in the NFL for runs for a loss.

He can't carry a full workload!

As another poster pointed out, he was not that far off of Dillon in 2006 in sharing carries and had more receiving yards then Dillon.

Also, I seem to remember Maroney being the featured back in 2007. When he carried the workload for the team. Before some people make the "Sammy Morris shared the workload" claim, Maroney had 185 carries, 835 yards to Morris' 85 carries, 384 and 42 carries and 219 of those yards by Morris came against Cleveland and Cincinnati when Maroney was injured. Also add 116 yards receiving for Maroney. He carried the workload at the RB position that year.

He has been a bust and a disappointment!

2006: 1815 all purpose yards, 7 TDs in 17 games played.

2007: 1292 rushing and receiving yards combined in 16 games played. 9 TDs that season.

He can only do it against winless and bad teams. He can't deal with the pressure!

This is my favorite one. In the 2007 Playoffs, Maroney in 3 games ran the ball 61 times for 280 yards and 3 TDs. 4.6 yards per carry. He also had 5 receptions for 61 yards. 12.2 yards per catch.

How can you defend Maroney? He sucks!

Those who don't see why some defend Maroney is because we have seen what this guy can do. Numbers don't lie. People tend to forget that.

 

[JMarr]

Except thats not factually correct. Maroney has one of the lowest rates in the NFL of runs for a loss. Lower than Adrian Peterson. He has one of the highest rates in the NFL of "successful runs" (runs of over 40% of yards on 1st down, 60% on 2nd, 100% on third) in the NFL.

Sorry I wasn't clear or used the wrong word--to me a negative running play is one that kills a drive in a short yardage situation, or puts the offense in a hole on first or second down, or where the back fails to see a seam that good RBs rip through 9 times out of 10.

As to the poster who thinks that saying "kids and old women could have walked through that hole" is a bad argument, all I can say is....did you see that play? That's about as easy as they come--he was untouched. But I was happy that LM got to join in on the party.