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Rolling assets to the next season

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Fencer, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    For many years, the Patriots rolled draft assets -- including a first-round pick -- to the following season. They also got "paid" very well in draft picks for doing so.

    That stopped in the 2012 draft, when they used both first-rounders.

    Now it looks as if they'll roll an unusually large amount of cap room to next season. That choice does NOT come with the equivalent of "interest" payments, so it's more dubious. On the other hand, cap room is a valuable resource, not to be squandered; every year there are players the Pats don't sign because they feel they can't afford them.
  2. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    One problem with the draft picks/cap space comparison is the uniqueness of draft picks. That is, there are only 32 1st round picks each year. Therefore, having more than the average team is advantageous. Cap space is not unique. The Patriots will not be the only team to roll over cap space into 2014 so the advantage they may gain will be limited. Two division rivals, the Bills and the Dolphins, are going to roll over much more money than the Pats.
  3. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Patriots do have a relatively large amount of unused cap space right now. I am thinking that there is a good chance that one or two players will be extended between now and the end of the season.

    A few months ago I figured that the most likely candidates to be extended early were Devin McCourty, Ryan Wendell and Rob Ninkovich.

    I also felt at that time that there was no way that Aqib Talib would be re-signed; if he played very well then he would be too expensive, and if he did not then the Patriots would move on.

    Now that the Pats have this surplus I am reconsidering my opinion on Talib. Perhaps he may be a player that the club targets to re-sign over the next several weeks. The defense (3rd down defense in particular) was much better after he joined the team, and the D became noticeably worse when he was sidelined in the second half of the AFCCG.
  4. Sciz

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    It is advantageous if you think it is more useful in a year. For example, we know the Pats like Emmanuel Sanders and it was reported that they like Michael Johnson. There wasn't really a good substitute for either in this past free agent class, but they should have a shot at both of them this coming offseason.
  5. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I would think that one could say the practice was continued in 2013, as they traded out of the first round again and took advantage of a deeper draft in the middle rounds.

    Belichick has always done a great job of making the team as competitive as possible while also keeping an eye towards the future. Rolling money over is especially important during the past couple/few yrs in a relatively flat cap era.

    If the talent is there and he feels that the value is right, he'll go after a player available, but he won't overpay at any position. An argument could be made that he didn't properly take advantage of the buyer's market this offseason with lower salaries for guys that may have been needed, so that's really my only gripe lately.
  6. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    You may be right regarding Talib, but I would personally wait to see how he plays and acts throughout this upcoming season before throwing too much money at him on a multi year deal.

    They've reportedly already offered him a multi year deal in the offseason that wasn't sufficient enough for him to agree to, so I'd have a hard time imagining them suddenly upping their offer before they are able to see continued progress. Just my opinion.
  7. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    I know we haven't seen any of our new guys play, but its hard to imagine us targeting any new receivers. Maybe if Edelman leaves, cause nobody else is gonna get cut.
  8. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    Relatively large amount of unused cap space right now? Define relative.

    Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2013 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

    According to Miguel, the New England Patriots currently are $6.6 million (approximate) under the adjusted salary cap.

    Another factor posters fail to realize is the amount of salary cap space required for preseason injured reserve, roster players 52 & 53, and practice squad. This year the New England Patriots have incurred approximately $6 million in salary cap space due to players placed on injured reserve. Nearly $13 million in dead salary cap space is counting towards the salary cap this season.

    » Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2014 Salary Cap and Contracts

    For the 2014-15 NFL season, Aaron Hernandez's contract accounts for $7.5 million in dead cap space alone. In addition, the New England Patriots salary cap figure is already at $119.5 million based only on the top 51 contracts (actually 48 based upon the link above).
  9. supafly

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    #24 Jersey

    And even all of that is prior to any raise in the salary cap prior to next season, which will almost certainly take place for a couple million.

    We also have the situations where monies may be recovered from both Fanane and/or Hernandez.

    On top of that Wilfork will likely be extended for another few yrs, and Mankins may be restructured. There will also be some other players like Connelly, Gregory etc who are costing a lot who won't be kept.

    There are plenty of ways to increase our figure in the salary cap, and I think that most of us expect to be sitting pretty nicely around 15 million or so under by the time free agency rolls around.
  10. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    The $119.5 million is based upon the Top 51 accounting rules not the Top 53 which also includes the injured reserve list, physically unable to perform list, practice squad, et cetera.

    It's been over a year since the New England Patriots cut Jonathan Fanene and the New England Patriots have yet to recover a single penny of Fanene's signing bonus. As for Aaron Hernandez's signing bonus, that will probably be tied up in the courts for years especially when all the appeals have been exhausted.

    I doubt the New England Patriot would cut Dan Connolly since the New England Patriots currently don't have a dedicated backup center worth a damn.
  11. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think that people look at decisions and moves and consider them evident of a philosophy, while i think they are the by products of a philosophy.

    For example, I do not believe BB philosophically feels it is good to trade for future picks. He certainly does that, but I believe it is because his philosophy is to consistent make moves that give the best overall value.
    Since many teams are willing to overpay to get the shiny new toy today, trading the pick for more in the future is the value move.

    Time and again, we see 'BB never does that' (ie drafting a LB in round 1, etc) and he eventually does.
    My perception is that BB has core philosophies that are big picture 'macro' concepts and weighs each decision based upon that. While this leads to consistency in some areas of decision making, the decisions change when the landscape changes (for example having 2 very wanted players in round 1, and no teams willing to overpay to get the pick).
  12. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was under the impression the Patriots had close to $10 million available in cap space from what I have seen written over the last few days.

    Over the Cap - NFL Salary Cap Space 2013

    If indeed it is only $6.6 million, then that's a whole different story. Typically the team holds on to about $5 million for use throughout the rest of the year after the season begins - in which case there indeed is not much extra to spend.
  13. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2013 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

  14. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    That might be a good argument if the main use of cap space were to win bidding wars for street FAs. But if the real issue is paying your OWN guys, then it can just be a way of accommodating the ups and downs of paying guys who have earned raises.

    The Pats have had some good recent drafts. But when you have good drafts, then a few years later you have expensive re-signings (or else your good drafted players walk away).
  15. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This isn't much at all going into the season. We need money for signings in the next couple of weeks. We need money to replace any future player placed on IR. We will also carry over dead money and earned bonuses.

    We can quibble over a couple of million, but Belichick seems to be where he wants to be.

  16. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    I was relying on larger figures that are being thrown around. I didn't check Miguel's page before starting this thread.
  17. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    #93 Jersey

    Mike Reiss brushed on this topic in his weekly chat:

    Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

    Nick (Woburn, MA)

    How can this Patriots team justify to it's fan base being $10 million under the cap? It is frustrating to me that they wouldn't spend and try and make the team better, especially when there are obvious holes that could have been filled with just a little more money (cough, cough, Wes Welker)
    Mike (12:13 PM)

    Nick, I think the under-the-cap stuff is some of the most misunderstood chatter is all of football. I am guessing this is talk-radio driven, and it's often misleading. Here is my take on the whole under-the-cap stuff with the Patriots: 1) They will use all their cap space this year when all is said and done; 2) You always want to leave some cap room for emergencies during the season; 3) With a big dead charge on the cap next year with Aaron Hernandez (assuming the Patriots don't get relief), strategic planning takes on added importance; 4) Some of that cap space will go to players already on the roster (Wendell, McCourty, Ninkovich, Spikes etc.). ...
    Mike (12:14 PM)

    ... The last point I'd make is that spending money alone isn't the issue. It's spending it smartly. That's where I'd focus the criticism. This isn't the amount what they're spending, it's HOW they're spending it. Swings and misses on Adrian Wilson ($1m plus this year) and Leon Washington ($360k signing bonus), among others.
    Mike (12:15 PM)

    So I feel pretty strongly about this one. This perception that the Patriots are somehow cheap is way off in my view.
  18. Brady6

    Brady6 On the Roster

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    #12 Jersey

    I really hope the NFL removes Hernandez cap hit from our books, leaving it on their books adds insult to injury. Does anyone know what the precedent is on this type of matter, Ray Carruth or another similar situation?
  19. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    Roger Goodell did not provide temporary cap relief for the New England Patriots with regard to Jonathan Fanene's signing bonus.
  20. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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