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Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team....


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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

And Manning, the lowest rated one of the bunch, has a losing record. Again....


Hugs, not drugs.






lmao so true :rofl::rofl::rofl:

they are ignorant to this truth.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

This thread is fast becoming a classic. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. :D
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

So, do the Patriots win because of Tom Brady, or because of Bill Bellichick? What percentage is each responsible for? How about the defense? What percentage did our defense account for?

Or, is Tom Brady the only player on the field?

I think you have some disposition against Tom Brady, perhaps slight, but it's there. I'm not questioning your fanhood or trying to knock you (b/c I generally find any post you make not mentioning Tom Brady a good one), but merely saying it appears you don't share the mancrush on him that most Pats fans have and should have. It's worth reminding that you were pretty adamant we should trade Brady and keep Cassel last year...
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

It's paying his bills.....isn't that what life is all about?

You're either very young or very delusional. Either way you must have one very boring life.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

You will always think Brady is superior, and I'll alway think Manning is superior. There will be no changing that.

The only opinion that is relevant is the rest of America.

No. The only opinions that are relevant are the opinions of people who know football and the NFL really well.

My guess is that those folks are split pretty much down the middle, with a slight edge to Brady, depending on how they weight regular season stats vs. championships.

Remember, too, that each of these guys has four to six good years left, so in many ways the jury is still out. Certainly, the neutral players that have sounded off on the topic generally say they'd take TB in a game where the chips were all on the table. If either Tommy or Peyton win another ring, it will definitely swing the discussion one way or the other.
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

I think you have some disposition against Tom Brady, perhaps slight, but it's there.
No, I don't. I just try to evaluate things based on what happens on the field, not the scoreboard. I'm not saying Manning is better than Brady. I'm saying that judging QBs by wins alone, when theres 22 starters on a team, is silly.

I'm not questioning your fanhood or trying to knock you (b/c I generally fi
nd any post you make not mentioning Tom Brady a good one), but merely saying it appears you don't share the mancrush on him that most Pats fans have and should have.

Should have? So its wrong to be a fan of the game before being a fan of the team? I'm sorry, but homerism affecting your analysis is not a good thing.

It's worth reminding that you were pretty adamant we should trade Brady and keep Cassel last year...
No, I was not. I was adamant that BB would consider the options both ways, and make the decision he thought was best.

Keep accusing me of things I didn't say.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

One thing that's very, very rarely mentioned in these arguments (I only scanned about 8 pages of this thread but didn't see anything mentioned) is that Manning plays in the comforts of a dome stadium, plus a few divisional games every year in domes as well. He typically plays 2/3 - 3/4 of the year in a dome. Meanwhile Brady plays in a dome once or twice a year, period.

The difference in stats across the two is stark, and it isn't just Brady and Manning. Hell, look at Favre this year. To prove how under-reported the dome effect is, I searched a number of sites (pro football reference, ESPN, CNNSI, NFL.com) and couldn't find splits by dome/outdoor. Field conditions tend to be better and you never have to play in 'weather'. It's a HUGE effect, especially late in the year when Brady is typically playing in freezing temperatures and often times in snow or rain. Cold, Hard, Football Facts had an article a few years ago (couldn't dig that up either...my search skills are eroding) that broke Manning's and Brady's stats down, dome vs. outdoor. And guess what? While Manning had the better cumulative numbers, Brady beat him in every measurable way (TD/INT ratio, passer rating and completion percentage) in both domes and outdoor stadiums.

Note: this was done before Brady's remarkable 2007, so these numbers were from a period when Brady was seen as more of a great game manager but not one who put up gaudy stats.

Manning is a fantastic quarterback, one of the best of all time. However, he has spent over half of his NFL career in the comfy confines of a dome, and that just has to be taken into consideration.
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

One thing that's very, very rarely mentioned in these arguments (I only scanned about 8 pages of this thread but didn't see anything mentioned) is that Manning plays in the comforts of a dome stadium, plus a few divisional games every year in domes as well. He typically plays 2/3 - 3/4 of the year in a dome. Meanwhile Brady plays in a dome once or twice a year, period.

The difference in stats across the two is stark, and it isn't just Brady and Manning. Hell, look at Favre this year. To prove how under-reported the dome effect is, I searched a number of sites (pro football reference, ESPN, CNNSI, NFL.com) and couldn't find splits by dome/outdoor. Field conditions tend to be better and you never have to play in 'weather'. It's a HUGE effect, especially late in the year when Brady is typically playing in freezing temperatures and often times in snow or rain. Cold, Hard, Football Facts had an article a few years ago (couldn't dig that up either...my search skills are eroding) that broke Manning's and Brady's stats down, dome vs. outdoor. And guess what? While Manning had the better overall numbers Brady beat him in TD/INT ratio, passer rating and completion percentage in both domes and in outdoor stadiums.

Note: this was done before Brady's remarkable 2007, so these numbers were from a period when Brady was seen as more of a great game manager but not one who put up gaudy stats.

Manning is a fantastic quarterback, one of the best of all time. However, he has spent over half of his NFL career in the comfy confines of a dome, and that just has to be taken into consideration.

ESPN has them under "splits" as indoor/outdoor. Peyton has significantly better indoor numbers in all but one (if I remember correctly) season.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

ESPN has them under "splits" as indoor/outdoor. Peyton has significantly better indoor numbers in all but one (if I remember correctly) season.

That's what I originally thought as well but look at the numbers: 244 outdoor attempts, just 69 indoor attempts. My guess is that with Lucas' retractable roof ESPN scores all games with the roof open as 'outdoors'. So no, those numbers don't really tell you anything about dome vs. outdoor in a true sense (i.e. the roof would certainly be closed with inclement weather).

That said, you are correct: his numbers are consistently better indoors, as are Brady's. The difference is that Manning has many, MANY more indoor/dome games to his credit than Brady.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

That's what I originally thought as well but look at the numbers: 244 outdoor attempts, just 69 indoor attempts. My guess is that with Lucas' retractable roof ESPN scores all games with the roof open as 'outdoors'. So no, those numbers don't really tell you anything about dome vs. outdoor in a true sense (i.e. the roof would certainly be closed with inclement weather).

That said, you are correct: his numbers are consistently better indoors, as are Brady's. The difference is that Manning has many, MANY more indoor/dome games to his credit than Brady.


FWIW.

Indoor stats:

Manning: 2121 of 3227 (65% comp), 25803 yards, 208 TDs, 93 INTs, 99.65 passer rating

Brady: 200 of 296 (67% comp), 2477 yards, 22 TDs, 9 INTs, 105.363 passer rating


Outdoor stats:

Manning: 1939 of 3045 (63% comp), 22370 yards, 141 TDs, 87 INTS, 89.289 passer rating

Brady: 2305 of 3667 (62% comp), 25333 yards, 181 TDs, 82 INTs, 90.385 passer rating.


Edited to include this year's numbers.
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

Well done, I didn't have the patience this morning to compile the numbers.

And there it is: even against arguably the best statistical QB of all time Brady aligns himself quite nicely despite a number of years when he was considered a good field general but not a big 'numbers' guy.

Barstool Sports recently had a quick blog on Moss, and how fans might not fully appreciate the greatness we're watching. Brady, to me, is far and away the bigger 'oversight'. Moss has freak catches (like the one-hander last week) that simply can't be overlooked. But Brady, week in and week out, just does his thing, and I think people take him for granted at times.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

Oh no. Coltsnirish, The Hyundai parts counter boy has now taken his goat crusade to this board. You've been beaten about the head and face enough on fuge and espn. Leave it there please. You've already overstayed your welcome.

Ray-ray, why do you follow me around all over the internets??
blush.gif
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

Brady's a vastly superior quarterback. Also, 26-12 vs. 22-17 for TD-INT comparison really isn't "nearly on par", particularly since Brady gets further into the playoffs and is playing the better/hotter teams as a result.

Finally, take out the Wild Card round, or at least find a way to weight it fairly, and you should start to see the difference even more starkly:

Tom Brady Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Peyton Manning Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

And let's not forget, from 2001-2006, Brady's best receiver was Troy Brown. He never had a Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, or a Dallas Clark to throw to, and only had an elite running back like Edgerrin James for one of those playoff (Corey Dillon 2004) seasons.

Not taking away from Manning, no doubt he is a first ballot Hall Of Famer. Great QB, great stats, SB Champion (though the SB was not his shining moment). Anyone saying he's not a great QB doesn't know football. That being said, Brady has done more with less talent in the playoffs. Brady was not a main reason for most of those 3 playoff losses (probably only the Denver game in 2005). Manning can be looked upon as a main reason for the losses to New England as well as other playoff losses.

Brady is the epitome of clutch when it comes to current era QB's when it comes to the playoffs, can't say that really for Manning. Yeah he has a SB MVP, but anyone who thought he deserved it over Rhodes is too much of a Indy Homer.

The two best QB's of the last 10 years, and the best football rivalry of the last 10 years. Can't wait until Sunday night, should be exciting.
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

And let's not forget, from 2001-2006, Brady's best receiver was Troy Brown. He never had a Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, or a Dallas Clark to throw to, and only had an elite running back like Edgerrin James for one of those playoff (Corey Dillon 2004) seasons.

Not taking away from Manning, no doubt he is a first ballot Hall Of Famer. Great QB, great stats, SB Champion (though the SB was not his shining moment). Anyone saying he's not a great QB doesn't know football. That being said, Brady has done more with less talent in the playoffs. Brady was not a main reason for most of those 3 playoff losses (probably only the Denver game in 2005). Manning can be looked upon as a main reason for the losses to New England as well as other playoff losses.

Brady is the epitome of clutch when it comes to current era QB's when it comes to the playoffs, can't say that really for Manning. Yeah he has a SB MVP, but anyone who thought he deserved it over Rhodes is too much of a Indy Homer.

The two best QB's of the last 10 years, and the best football rivalry of the last 10 years. Can't wait until Sunday night, should be exciting.


I think we've all come to the conclusion that Manning makes his WR's better. I'm not saying his WR's didn't have any talent, all I'm saying is it's pretty naive on your part to assume that Manning is the product of his weapons, when in fact, it's the other way around.

Also, didn't Troy Brown have 100 catches 3-straight years? Stop selling your players short.
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

I think we've all come to the conclusion that Manning makes his WR's better. I'm not saying his WR's didn't have any talent, all I'm saying is it's pretty naive on your part to assume that Manning is the product of his weapons, when in fact, it's the other way around.

Also, didn't Troy Brown have 100 catches 3-straight years? Stop selling your players short.

No, we haven't all come to the conclusion that Manning makes his WR's better.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

No, we haven't all come to the conclusion that Manning makes his WR's better.

It's fairly simple to see that his command of the offense has his WR in all the right places at all the right times.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

It's fairly simple to see that his command of the offense has his WR in all the right places at all the right times.

It's fairly simple to see that he's had receivers who were excellent receivers with or without Manning. This was your initial argument:

I think we've all come to the conclusion that Manning makes his WR's better. I'm not saying his WR's didn't have any talent, all I'm saying is it's pretty naive on your part to assume that Manning is the product of his weapons, when in fact, it's the other way around.

Stop trying to move the goalposts. Marvin Harrison was not a product of Peyton Manning, as he was proving with Harbaugh before Manning even arrived on the scene. Brandon Stokley was not a product of Peyton Manning, as he's proven with Denver. Reggie Wayne was a 1st round talent, regardless of Peyton Manning.
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

It's fairly simple to see that he's had receivers who were excellent receivers with or without Manning. This was your initial argument:



Stop trying to move the goalposts. Marvin Harrison was not a product of Peyton Manning, as he was proving with Harbaugh before Manning even arrived on the scene. Brandon Stokley was not a product of Peyton Manning, as he's proven with Denver. Reggie Wayne was a 1st round talent, regardless of Peyton Manning.


15 WR's were taken ahead of Harrison, Wayne, and Gonzalez in their respective drafts. The only ones who's career can remotely stack up to these three is Meshawn Johnson and potentially Calvin Johnson. Coincidence?
 
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Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

15 WR's were taken ahead of Harrison, Wayne, and Gonzalez in their respective drafts. The only ones who's career can remotely stack up to these three is Meshawn Johnson and potentially Calvin Johnson. Coincidence?

Yes, obviously. This sort of thing happens all the time. It's why teams try to get good player personnel men in place. You're essentially belittling the job done by Polian. That's just idiotic, considering his success prior to the arrival of Peyton Manning, and in Buffalo and Carolina.

Look, I know that you're a Colts troll, but can't you do better than this sort of ridiculous argument?
 
Re: Peter King's mid-season All-Pro team.....

Yes, obviously. This sort of thing happens all the time. It's why teams try to get good player personnel men in place. You're essentially belittling the job done by Polian. That's just idiotic, considering his success prior to the arrival of Peyton Manning, and in Buffalo and Carolina.

Look, I know that you're a Colts troll, but can't you do better than this sort of ridiculous argument?

Funny, in the couple of months I've been here I've heard this reference from about 13 different Patriots fans in regards to Bill Bellicheat: "The players play the game".

Look, if you can't admit that if Calvin Johnson and Reggie Wayne switched teams, Calvin Johnson would be on this All Pro list, then that's a you problem.

I can't imagine what Peyton Manning would do with a WR with the athletic ability of Calvin Johnson.
 
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