Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated list

[jmt57]

Pete Prisco :juggle: of CBSSports.com unveils an annual list of the most overrated and underrated player on each of the 32 NFL teams; today this year's edition was unveiled.


Overrated-underrated: Broncos' nickel DB Harris worth every penny - NFL - CBSSports.com



For the New England Patriots, Logan Mankins was named the club's most over rated player.

Overrated: G Logan Mankins.
He has battled injury issues the past two seasons, but that doesn't mean he can't be overrated. He is a good player at guard now, but not one of the league's best.​

Center Ryan Wendell was named the team's most underrated player.

Underrated: C Ryan Wendell.
He stepped in for veteran Dan Koppen and did a heck of a job in the middle of the Patriots' line. Playing center in New England's up-tempo offense takes a lot of smarts.​

Nick Underhill has his analysis of the two Pats in this ranking.

CBS Sports calls Logan Mankins the New England Patriots' most overrated player | masslive.com

People certainly aren’t going to like Mankins inclusion on the list, but it’s hard to argue otherwise. Mankins wasn’t healthy last season and struggled until late in the year. Yet, he still made the Pro Bowl and was second-team All-Pro last season. So, it’s easy to see where Prisco is coming from on this one.

As far as Koppen goes, he’s quietly become a great run blocker and doesn’t get the credit he deserves. For more on him, read this.​

From the "read this" link above:

In selecting Wendell as New England’s “Secret Superstar,” Pro Football Focus pointed out his run blocking ability and durability as the determining factors. According to the site’s grading system, Wendell was not only the best run-blocking center; he ranked third among all interior offensive linemen.

As far as durability goes, Wendell played 1,379 total snaps last season, the most among all New England players.

The one weakness in Wendell’s game, however, is his pass blocking ability. The former undrafted player allowed 18 pressures and six sacks last season, the most among all centers. Those figures are troubling alone, but become more alarming when considering that quarterback Tom Brady struggles against interior pressure.

If Wendell can clear up that area of his game, he could be due for a Ninkovich-esque breakout season.​

Back to Prisco and his list; other players garnering their team's most overrated designation include Osi Umenyiora, Michael Oher, Paul Kruger, Ed Reed, Dwayne Bowe, DeSean Jackson, LaMarr Woodley, Vernon Davis, Dashon Goldson, Antonio Gates, Justin Tuck - and Wes Welker.

Overrated: WR Wes Welker.
I like his game a lot. He is a good player. But I see lists that have him ranked in the top 50 players in the league. He's not that. And where does he rank in terms of receivers on his own team?​

 

[JPPT1974]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Well Welker on the overrated list? I mean he is awesome but IMHO, he is underrated as he does not get the recognition like a Calvin Johnson or a Larry Fitzgerald does.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

It's probably safe to assume Molewisrocks is not writing player evaluation articles for CBS Sports.

 

[QB12]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Can't say I didn't tell you so regarding Mankins. He is just above 'serviceable.'

 

[Sciz]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Mankins is a copout, and Prisco even admits it. Of course a guy playing on one good knee is going to be worse at pushing huge men around than he was when he had two good knees. It just seems that Mankins' unique situation in which the knee has affected him for two seasons of play (the one after fixing it that everybody has, the one before fixing it that nobody else has) has led to nobody giving him the benefit of the doubt that every other player that tears an ACL gets.

 

[supafly]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Interesting analysis regarding Brady's struggles under pressure, particularly from the interior :

Were Tom Brady's struggles against pressure last season a sign of things to come? | masslive.com

We've known for a long time that interior pressure was the way to rattle Brady, but I didn't realize it was quite this bad, ranking him 25/27 QB's in the study.

There are many who feel that Connelly would be the better way to go at center, but I'm probably not one of them. That said, I would be interested to know whether Connelly would be able to hold up a little better vs interior pressure, even though I think he's the obvious weak link on the line.

 

[DocHoliday]

Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrate

Ask Justin Smith's bicep and the 49ers' 6th Lombardi if Mankins is overrated.

 

[Froob]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

He might be a bit overrated but he has been hurt last two years or so. I'll tell you one thing, dude's one mean son of a ***** and he inspires those around him to play better.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Can't say I didn't tell you so regarding Mankins.

Can't say you were right, either.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Interesting analysis regarding Brady's struggles under pressure, particularly from the interior :

Were Tom Brady's struggles against pressure last season a sign of things to come? | masslive.com

We've known for a long time that interior pressure was the way to rattle Brady, but I didn't realize it was quite this bad, ranking him 25/27 QB's in the study.

There are many who feel that Connelly would be the better way to go at center, but I'm probably not one of them. That said, I would be interested to know whether Connelly would be able to hold up a little better vs interior pressure, even though I think he's the obvious weak link on the line.

The study was by PFF so, basically, it's a waste of time to read, much less worry about.

 

[supafly]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

The study was by PFF so, basically, it's a waste of time to read, much less worry about.

Sure, I understand the concern with PFF statistics, but I also think we all know that Brady's weakness is pressure up the middle simply judging from the eye test and our experience following the team.

Whether it's PFF or not, the fact remains that as well as I feel that Wendell played, he still gave up 6 sacks during the season up the middle.

I don't personally see Connelly as being that much different however, so I suppose Wendell is the clear cut choice at center.

 

[xlcjw72]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

I said it once and ill say it again i want mankins next to brady 24/7 the dude is always there to kick someones ***** if they get to touchy with Tom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zmLUTgCvWfo#t=90s

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Sure, I understand the concern with PFF statistics, but I also think we all know that Brady's weakness is pressure up the middle simply judging from the eye test and our experience following the team.

Whether it's PFF or not, the fact remains that as well as I feel that Wendell played, he still gave up 6 sacks during the season up the middle.

I don't personally see Connelly as being that much different however, so I suppose Wendell is the clear cut choice at center.

Even if Cannon doesn't win a starting spot this season, this team is one injury away from

Solder
Mankins
Connelly
Cannon
Vollmer

As for Brady, all non-scrambling QBs have a 'weakness' against inside pressure, because they can't step up.

As for Brady, even if you buy into the PFF stuff, it's pretty much what you'd have expected:

Plays under pressure:

2012: 191 drop-backs, 38 comp. percentage, 4 TDs, 3 INTs, 55.8 passer rating
2011: 205 drop-backs, 50 comp. percentage, 9 TDs, 3 INTs, 84.7 passer rating
2010: 171 drop-backs, 53.2 comp. percentage, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 84.5 passer rating
2009: 161 drop-backs, 46.1 comp. percentage, 8 TDs, 9 INTs, 59.8 passer rating

In 2009, Brady was coming back from injury, Moss was almost strictly a 10 yard + threat, the team had no WR3, Watson had fallen out of favor and Baker was a stiff, so TB's numbers would be expected to be down.

In 2010, Gronkandez arrived, giving better outlets at TE and taking pressure of WWW. The numbers would be expected to be much better than 2009's.

In 2011, Gronkandez ruled again, along with Welker, so the numbers should have been up there again, and they were.

In 2012, Gronkandez was a comparative bust, and Welker was all Brady had, so it's not surprising that the numbers dipped (There's more to it, like some trainwreck moments for Thomas etc..., but that's where I'd start).

 

[supafly]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Even if Cannon doesn't win a starting spot this season, this team is one injury away from

Solder
Mankins
Connelly
Cannon
Vollmer

As for Brady, all non-scrambling QBs have a 'weakness' against inside pressure, because they can't step up.

As for Brady, even if you buy into the PFF stuff, it's pretty much what you'd have expected:



In 2009, Brady was coming back from injury, Moss was almost strictly a 10 yard + threat, the team had no WR3, Watson had fallen out of favor and Baker was a stiff, so TB's numbers would be expected to be down.

In 2010, Gronkandez arrived, giving better outlets at TE and taking pressure of WWW. The numbers would be expected to be much better than 2009's.

In 2011, Gronkandez ruled again, along with Welker, so the numbers should have been up there again, and they were.

In 2012, Gronkandez was a comparative bust, and Welker was all Brady had, so it's not surprising that the numbers dipped (There's more to it, like some trainwreck moments for Thomas etc..., but that's where I'd start).

So you attribute better receiving threats to much less of a problem for Brady under interior pressure then. That would certainly make sense.

I was looking at it more in a "who's better at center vs pressure" way, but couldn't see much difference no matter who plays there. The fact that Koppen also tended to struggle vs interior pressure makes it seem like no matter what, anyone is going to have somewhere around the same kind of success/failure.

 

[primetime]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Brady struggles when there's pressure up the middle... like literally every single other quarterback in NFL history. Please, show me the mythical quarterback who puts up superstar numbers when there's a 300 pounder blasting him within a few seconds of the snap. I guess if you can scramble you're better off, but even superior passers and runners like RG3 are much better whne they can step up.

But look at him! He's on the decline!!!

 

[pdangle]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

The study was by PFF so, basically, it's a waste of time to read, much less worry about.

Yes, yes, PFF wrote it, it must NOT be true!

I think this type of analysis is ok from PFF. Big sample size, and easy to categorize result. It's some of their more early -ahem- subjective statistical analysis that gave them a bad name, as it should have. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water, no one else is spending the time do this. They looked at 1300 snaps for one player, that's a huge sample. As long as they stayed relatively consistent across the players and results, any bumps should even out, and the results should be good enough to at least discuss. Better than an i-saw-this, he-did-that-one-game type of analysis.

Moving on, I'm surprised Wendell was that good run blocking, because like most here, I remember most of those middle pressures more than anything else.

I've always assumed run blocking was more difficult of the two, and if you could run block, especially at an above average level, you could easily pass block. But not vice versa. So maybe he can quickly improve in that area with Scar help.

But given that the report is even close to true, would you rather a great run blocking center / weaker pass blocking, or the other way around for Brady this year. Especially if the middle is a weakness of his, and most QB's also. Personally, I'd kick Wendell to the curb (bench) and get an average run blocker, beast of a pass blocker in there. That's just me.

Also I mean like, WTF on Mankins, overrated? I guess he should of whined and complained more, sat out games instead of playing, and flexed his leg in pain over and over on TV when he did, so he had built up a nice tidy media acceptable excuse. Just shows how ABOVE average a player and person he his. Hope he stays healthly this year, his dumps are more valuable than this overrated article!

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Yes, yes, PFF wrote it, it must NOT be true!

I think this type of analysis is ok from PFF. Big sample size, and easy to categorize result. It's some of their more early -ahem- subjective statistical analysis that gave them a bad name, as it should have. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water, no one else is spending the time do this. They looked at 1300 snaps for one player, that's a huge sample. As long as they stayed relatively consistent across the players and results, any bumps should even out, and the results should be good enough to at least discuss. Better than an i-saw-this, he-did-that-one-game type of analysis.

Moving on, I'm surprised Wendell was that good run blocking, because like most here, I remember most of those middle pressures more than anything else.

I've always assumed run blocking was more difficult of the two, and if you could run block, especially at an above average level, you could easily pass block. But not vice versa. So maybe he can quickly improve in that area with Scar help.

But given that the report is even close to true, would you rather a great run blocking center / weaker pass blocking, or the other way around for Brady this year. Especially if the middle is a weakness of his, and most QB's also. Personally, I'd kick Wendell to the curb (bench) and get an average run blocker, beast of a pass blocker in there. That's just me.

Also I mean like, WTF on Mankins, overrated? I guess he should of whined and complained more, sat out games instead of playing, and flexed his leg in pain over and over on TV when he did, so he had built up a nice tidy media acceptable excuse. Just shows how ABOVE average a player and person he his. Hope he stays healthly this year, his dumps are more valuable than this overrated article!

PFF is garbage. It's like giving 50% of your financial data to the maid and putting confidence in her analysis and advice on your finances.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Well Welker on the overrated list? I mean he is awesome but IMHO, he is underrated as he does not get the recognition like a Calvin Johnson or a Larry Fitzgerald does.

I love Welker, but he is overrated. I don't think he deserves to be in the same category as Johnson and Fitzgerald. Those two have proven that they can raise an average QB's game and be a threat that people have to dedicate extra attention even with guys like Shaun Hill, John Skelton, and Kevin Kolb throwing to them. Those two are the elite of the elite at WR and Welker is on the next tier down.

The fact that anyone talks about Welker in the same breath as Megatron or Fitzgerald makes him overrated. Welker has been in the top 10 and mostly in the top 5 while in New England, but he isn't the elite of the elite.

Personally, I expect his numbers to drop quite a bit this year. Welker was Brady's binkie and his numbers reflected that. I don't know if Manning will feel the same way when he has other options. Don't be shocked if he has a sub 100 catch and 1,000 yard season this year. Until we see if Manning adopts Welker as his binkie like Brady did, we don't know what to expect of him production-wise.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Sure, I understand the concern with PFF statistics, but I also think we all know that Brady's weakness is pressure up the middle simply judging from the eye test and our experience following the team.

Whether it's PFF or not, the fact remains that as well as I feel that Wendell played, he still gave up 6 sacks during the season up the middle.

I don't personally see Connelly as being that much different however, so I suppose Wendell is the clear cut choice at center.

I personally think Connolly may be the better center. The o-line, as a whole, was much more stable as a whole last year than it was the year before when Connolly was manning the center (Vollmer missed a large chunk of the season with a rookie Solder replacing him for 10 games, Light missed a few games and was banged up, and Mankins was playing with a torn ACL). Connolly did a yeoman job manning center in 2011 under those conditions.

I think that if Cannon does win the RG job, I think Connolly will ultimately end up winning the center position. I actually think he is the better center. I know I am in the minority on this, but really do think he is better. I think Wendell is very good too though.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

For any one of you who are foolish enough to listen to or believe anything that comes out of this man's mouth I'll quickly lose respect for you. Logan Mankins has been one of the top 10 guards of the last decade easily. He is one of the reasons that greatly contributed to Tom Brady being able to plant his feet and dissect. And I love his versatility in being able to both pass protect and run block. Ryan Wendell on the other hand, I thought is a solid player, and even underrated at times. He is no star, nor is he a rising star but more ofter then not, he gets the job done. As for Welker, great player but on the decline slightly, definitely not underrated. But thank God we have a great player in Danny Amendola and an all around quality wide receiver if he can stay healthy. This guy is obviously an idiot, I've been watching football for 20 something years now.