Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated list

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

I will respond to you how everyone should respond to you on this board:

Yes Andy, you are right. You are always right. Once again you proved you are far superior to all others on this board. Thank you for pointing out what an ignorant fool I and the rest of this board are for disagreeing with you. I can say that I and everyone else on this board are better human beings just being exposed to you.

I am done dealing with your arrogance and condensation.

Got it. We disagree so that means I think I have to be right.
What does it mean that you disagreed with my comments?
I chose to explain my side you appear to want to whine that my opinion is different.

Your post is 1000 times more arrogant than mine.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Got it. We disagree so that means I think I have to be right.
What does it mean that you disagreed with my comments?
I chose to explain my side you appear to want to whine that my opinion is different.

Your post is 1000 times more arrogant than mine.

If you ever wanted to debate anyone, I would debate you. You want to call people's thoughts and ideas "ignorant", lies etc. If you ever wanted to have a real debate rather than ram your opinions down other's throats by insulting their opinions and ideas, I would respond.

And I meant my response to be arrogant.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

If you ever wanted to debate anyone, I would debate you. You want to call people's thoughts and ideas "ignorant", lies etc. If you ever wanted to have a real debate rather than ram your opinions down other's throats by insulting their opinions and ideas, I would respond.

And I meant my response to be arrogant.

What word would you prefer I use?
You stated that Brady throws to welker triple teamed and won't throw to someone wide open.
That is just wrong and indicates an ignorance of what you are talking about

Would uninformed or inconsistent with what actually happened or misunderstood be more politically correct?

Lets not pretend that you don't post your opinions with any less certainty than mine. Semantics doesn't change that

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

He is one of the best WRs of all time, so yes to label him a 'slot receiver' is a slight. It implies he is not a real WR.

First of all, Wes Welker is a slot receiver. He lines up almost exclusively in the slot. That is not a slight, and if you think it "implies that he is not a real WR" that is strange. I don't think it implies anything other than he lines up in the slot. Many great receivers have done exceptional work in the slot.

Secondly, I find it a real reach to say he is one of the best receivers of all time. Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Steve Largent all come to mind as more dominant players in their primes than Welker, in no particular order. And that's just basically 1980s and up, not counting guys like Don Hutson, Lance Alworth and others who played before the passing game became as pronounced as it is today. I suppose it depends on how you want to quantify "best receivers of all time." Welker is not sneaking into anybody's top 10 list if they are being objective.

I love Wes Welker, and have not been one of the posters to come on here and tell him to not let the door hit him in the azz on the way out. I was certainly saddened to see him go, especially to play with the 5head. He is a slot receiver, no slight intended or implied, and he is only one of the best receivers of all time if you are not making a short list.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

First of all, Wes Welker is a slot receiver. He lines up almost exclusively in the slot. That is not a slight, and if you think it "implies that he is not a real WR" that is strange. I don't think it implies anything other than he lines up in the slot. Many great receivers have done exceptional work in the slot.

Secondly, I find it a real reach to say he is one of the best receivers of all time. Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Steve Largent all come to mind as more dominant players in their primes than Welker, in no particular order. And that's just basically 1980s and up, not counting guys like Don Hutson, Lance Alworth and others who played before the passing game became as pronounced as it is today. I suppose it depends on how you want to quantify "best receivers of all time." Welker is not sneaking into anybody's top 10 list if they are being objective.

I love Wes Welker, and have not been one of the posters to come on here and tell him to not let the door hit him in the azz on the way out. I was certainly saddened to see him go, especially to play with the 5head. He is a slot receiver, no slight intended or implied, and he is only one of the best receivers of all time if you are not making a short list.

Welker is pretty much the exception to the rule that slot receivers are lesser receivers than outside receivers, but I certainly wouldn't put him in the class of best of all time. In fact, his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame are still slim unless he has a few more awesome seasons.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

...Secondly, I find it a real reach to say he is one of the best receivers of all time. Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Steve Largent all come to mind as more dominant players in their primes than Welker, in no particular order. And that's just basically 1980s and up, not counting guys like Don Hutson, Lance Alworth and others who played before the passing game became as pronounced as it is today. I suppose it depends on how you want to quantify "best receivers of all time." Welker is not sneaking into anybody's top 10 list if they are being objective...

Welker has done what no receiver had done before him, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. You're basically diminishing him for being in the slot while insisting loudly that you aren't, which is a weak argument, to put it mildly.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Welker is pretty much the exception to the rule that slot receivers are lesser receivers than outside receivers, but I certainly wouldn't put him in the class of best of all time. In fact, his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame are still slim unless he has a few more awesome seasons.

I think he certainly has the numbers and the reputation, and people will be pulling for him because he works so damn hard. The problem is that there is such a logjam at wide receiver for the Hall of Fame. I'd also like to see the Hall start to correct their massive bias towards offensive players---it's something like 3 to 1 right now with offensive players getting in over defensive players, and that's ridiculous.

So while I think Wes belongs in the museum, and that he'll deservedly make it some day, I think he should wait for a while until Andre Reed and Tim Brown get in, let alone all of the overlooked defensive players---Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, Jim Marshall, Randy Gradishar, Alex Karras, Aeneas Williams, Steve Atwater, Steve Tasker.....it's absolutely absurd that some of these guys are not in! Wes won't have to worry about that for a while, and hopefully he keeps plugging along (although not too well now that he's a Bronco)....but it'll eventually happen. Again, hopefully after more deserving defensive players make it first.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Welker has done what no receiver had done before him, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. You're basically diminishing him for being in the slot while insisting loudly that you aren't, which is a weak argument, to put it mildly.

I'm not diminishing what he has done for being in the slot. You may have interpreted it that way, but I am not. I believe Wes Welker deserves enshrinement in the Hall of Fame. I simply think all of the receivers I listed were more dominant. My argument was that he is only one of the best receivers of all time if we are making a longer list.

I spent the bulk of my life living in Minnesota, and Cris Carter played a lot out of the slot, especially when Randy Moss arrived. He is a deserving Hall of Famer (though I never cared for him). Hines Ward spent a lot of time in the slot and was on my list as well.

Not sure how I was misinterpreted. Were I diminishing him for being in the slot I could see how my argument was weak. As I was not, do not, and never would (others in the thread have, not me), I don't see how my opinion that there are at least 10 more receivers I have watched play a lot in my lifetime that were better than Wes puts him down at all.

Your asserted was that my argument was weak, based on things I did not write. That is not a very strong argument in itself, especially when you did not refute any point I actually made.

I mean no ill will toward anyone or their opinions, I just don't think Wes Welker is one of the greatest receivers of all time, unless we're talking about a longer list than usually is made. He would not be in my top ten.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

I'm not diminishing what he has done for being in the slot. You may have interpreted it that way, but I am not.

You are, because of the way you were defining the need of the position. Calling Hines Ward more dominant, for example, makes no sense. Here are some numbers:

Calvin Johnson v. Wes Welker, since 2007 when CJ arrived in the league...

Johnson

Games - 92
Starts - 86
Receptions - 488
Yards - 7836
1st downs - 362
TDs - 54
Yards from Scrimmage - 8003

Welker
Games - 93
Starts - 78
Receptions - 672
Yards - 7459
1st downs - 389
TDs - 37
Yards from Scrimmage - 7605

Welker holds up quite well against the best outside receiver of his era.

As for being a top 10 all-time, I didn't see anyone make that claim.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

You are, because of the way you were defining the need of the position. Calling Hines Ward more dominant, for example, makes no sense. Here are some numbers:

Calvin Johnson v. Wes Welker, since 2007 when CJ arrived in the league...

Johnson

Games - 92
Starts - 86
Receptions - 488
Yards - 7836
1st downs - 362
TDs - 54
Yards from Scrimmage - 8003

Welker
Games - 93
Starts - 78
Receptions - 672
Yards - 7459
1st downs - 389
TDs - 37
Yards from Scrimmage - 7605

Welker holds up quite well against the best outside receiver of his era.

As for being a top 10 all-time, I didn't see anyone make that claim.

If you feel that Wes Welker is equal to Calvin Johnson, I have bridges I'd love to sell you. Statistically Wes is a stud, no doubt. He is among the best receivers of his era.

Again, I have said he is in the Hall of Fame if I have a vote.

I like Hines Ward because I feel he is almost as good a receiver, especially out of the slot, and was the most devastating blocker I have ever seen at the position. He also was a valuable special teamer in his youth. I will grant you that this was the one person on my list I was hesitant to add, and as he is the only player you refuted, I feel you are ostensibly in agreement about the others (especially since I have never seen you not make a point you thought was there).

Nobody said he was top 10. Andy, who I was replying to originally, stated he was one of the best receivers of all time. My point was that I would only agree if the list of best receivers of all time is a longer one than people normally associate with "best --- of all time." I may have made a leap in judgment, but generally when people say something is one of the best of all time they aren't expecting to list more than a handful of bests that are more bester.

Really nothing to see here, Deus. I was not disparaging Wes or anyone's opinion. I never slighted the slot receiver position, nor his productivity, nor his acumen. He is a Hall of Famer and one of the best Patriots of all time.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

First of all, Wes Welker is a slot receiver. He lines up almost exclusively in the slot.

First of that is actually not correct. For the last 3 years we ran primarily a 2WR 2TE 1RB offense, so there is not a slot WR.

That is not a slight, and if you think it "implies that he is not a real WR" that is strange. I don't think it implies anything other than he lines up in the slot. Many great receivers have done exceptional work in the slot.

Of course qualifying him as a slot receiver is a slight. It implies he is not a real receiver, but a very limited one with limits in his ability. Historically a 'slot receiver' is a guy who comes in on 3rd down. Of that adjective is demeaning to a guy who outproduces almost every reciever you don't put that limiting adjective on.

Secondly, I find it a real reach to say he is one of the best receivers of all time. Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Steve Largent all come to mind as more dominant players in their primes than Welker, in no particular order. And that's just basically 1980s and up, not counting guys like Don Hutson, Lance Alworth and others who played before the passing game became as pronounced as it is today. I suppose it depends on how you want to quantify "best receivers of all time." Welker is not sneaking into anybody's top 10 list if they are being objective.

There is no arbitrary number on 'one of the best ever'.
Some of the players on your list are very, very debatable such as Moore, Monk, Reed, Ward, and Sharpe whos career was cut short.

I love Wes Welker, and have not been one of the posters to come on here and tell him to not let the door hit him in the azz on the way out. I was certainly saddened to see him go, especially to play with the 5head. He is a slot receiver, no slight intended or implied, and he is only one of the best receivers of all time if you are not making a short list.

He is a wide receiver. He is compared to wide recievers and he is one of the best of alltime. My comments that you responded to were directed at a post the demeaned him as a 'slot' receiver who was Bradys 'binkie' and apparently only produced because Tom Brady is such a poor QB he ignores wide open recievers to throw to a triple teamed Welker.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

If you feel that Wes Welker is equal to Calvin Johnson, I have bridges I'd love to sell you. Statistically Wes is a stud, no doubt. He is among the best receivers of his era.

Again, I have said he is in the Hall of Fame if I have a vote.

I like Hines Ward because I feel he is almost as good a receiver, especially out of the slot, and was the most devastating blocker I have ever seen at the position. He also was a valuable special teamer in his youth. I will grant you that this was the one person on my list I was hesitant to add, and as he is the only player you refuted, I feel you are ostensibly in agreement about the others (especially since I have never seen you not make a point you thought was there).

Nobody said he was top 10. Andy, who I was replying to originally, stated he was one of the best receivers of all time. My point was that I would only agree if the list of best receivers of all time is a longer one than people normally associate with "best --- of all time." I may have made a leap in judgment, but generally when people say something is one of the best of all time they aren't expecting to list more than a handful of bests that are more bester.

Really nothing to see here, Deus. I was not disparaging Wes or anyone's opinion. I never slighted the slot receiver position, nor his productivity, nor his acumen. He is a Hall of Famer and one of the best Patriots of all time.

If you consider him a HOFer then he is one of the best of alltime.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Nobody said he was top 10. Andy, who I was replying to originally, stated he was one of the best receivers of all time. My point was that I would only agree if the list of best receivers of all time is a longer one than people normally associate with "best --- of all time." I may have made a leap in judgment, but generally when people say something is one of the best of all time they aren't expecting to list more than a handful of bests that are more bester.

1.) I don't think Welker's better than Johnson. I think Johnson is the best WR of his era, and the best since Moss in his prime.

2.) You're just not going to sell me on Ward.

3.) I agree that Welker is not top 10 all time, although I don't think you're having some hard cutoff regarding 'best ever' is really something to hang your hat on. Marino's one of the best ever, and he's not in my top 10, just for example. As for Wes, I do think he's top 10 of his era. Where in that top 10 is something I'd have to really look into and think about, and it's still a fluid thing, since another couple of top shelf years would likely move him up the list.

4.) If you're putting him in the HOF, you're putting him with the best.

 

[primetime]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Herman Moore?! He had maybe a 3 year stretch where he was great. Same for Sterling Sharpe, though more because of injury. Andre Rison was arguably as good as those guys for longer, and no one's calling him one of the all-time greats.

 

[supafly]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

I'd have been more than happy to see Welker stay here for another 2-3 yrs.

Unfortunately, Bill Belichick did not agree with me.

 

[Sciz]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

First of that is actually not correct. For the last 3 years we ran primarily a 2WR 2TE 1RB offense, so there is not a slot WR.

If a receiver receives over 70% of both his catches and targets from the slot, does that not make him a slot receiver?

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

If a receiver receives over 70% of both his catches and targets from the slot, does that not make him a slot receiver?

A receiver is a receiver.
Not sure what your point is.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

Herman Moore?! He had maybe a 3 year stretch where he was great. Same for Sterling Sharpe, though more because of injury. Andre Rison was arguably as good as those guys for longer, and no one's calling him one of the all-time greats.

Best of all time is not measured in a 3 year stretch.

 

[Sciz]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

A receiver is a receiver.
Not sure what your point is.

By that logic, I can't wait to see how many sacks Mayo has next season as a 3-4 edge rusher. He's a really good linebacker.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Mankins, Wendell, Welker land on CBS Sports' annual most overrated or underrated

By that logic, I can't wait to see how many sacks Mayo has next season as a 3-4 edge rusher. He's a really good linebacker.

Of course your response is silly.