ESPN: Jets in better Super Bowl shape than Pats

[Metaphors]

1.) I've never stated that Sanchez will take a big leap forward.

If Sanchez has the same type of season in 2010, I'm not sure how you can predict that they will win the division...much less do it easily.

2.) I never stated anything about Sheppard/Jones/Washington/Rhodes being replaced

That's the point. You don't say anything about them. You state emphatically that the Pats have 10 or so complete holes in their roster. Jets holes? CB? S? NT? 3rd down RB? WR? Depth and age on the lines? Nothing.

3.) Welker blew out his ACL.

What if Welker is back at full strength in 9 months, just after a PUP stint? That is a pretty reasonable estimation based on recent history. That means the Pats would have Welker for 9-10 regular season games and the playoffs. You never state your Welker expectations for 2010, yet constantly say his absence is a huge factor in your evaluation. Do you base it on him missing 6 games? Missing the year? Playing but not being effective?

4.) If a player was not of starter caliber in 2009 for reasons other than health, why would you assume he'll be of starter caliber in 2010?

Not assuming anything, but definitely acknowledging the possibility. Either Butler will be a starting CB or Belichick will find a better one. Either Tate will be a starting WR or Belichick will find a better one. Regardless, the Pats will be fielding players at your "hole" positions that will either be the rookies they drafted last year or someone better. You take the perspective that is the worst of all worlds for the Pats. The rookies weren't able to displace experienced veterans last year, why would you expect them to be able to start now that they have a year of experience and full participation in the offseason program where they know what they are doing? Because it happens all the time. It is just as likely that UFAs will compete to fill these "holes", but since FA hasn't started yet, they can't be considered either. Even though there has been a cap for 15+ years, one uncapped year means that the next CBA won't have a cap. Any other ways of dumping on the Pats situation that I've missed?

It would be supremely stupid to evaluate the team as of 5 months from now when I don't know what that team will look like 5 months from now.

The thread is about evaluating the teams ability to compete for an event that won't happen for another 11+ months. You've concluded that the Jets are better positioned to compete for the SB than the Pats. You do that by dismissing where the Pats are better positioned than the Jets (ability to sign UFAs, boatload of picks in a deep draft). Anyone who doesn't align with your way of thinking is "supremely stupid" or "deluding themselves". Have fun ruling the universe you've built around yourself.

 

[okterrific]

DeOssie didn't actually say that on WEEI, right? I thought he liked his job there.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

RIP New England.

 

[chevss454]

This kind of argument makes no sense for teams as the Pats' caliber so far from FA, the draft, training camp and preseason. The Pat's have a good team with a reasonable expectation of being something special through FA and the draft.

Ok, we all agree there is work to be done by the FO. But with all the high draft picks and with the prospect of an uncapped year (ceiling and floor) as well as the ****pot full of players expected to be released because of owners' cashing in on no floor and FA's, I choose to look at this as a huge opportunity to improve this team.

Now, who wants to drink to this! ( Sam Adams Noble Pils, btw)

:eat3: :eat3: :eat3:

 

[BionicPatriot]

Hard to say they ARE in better shape, all depends. But if Sanchez develops into an all-pro, they're as set as you can be.

 

[Deus Irae]

If Sanchez has the same type of season in 2010, I'm not sure how you can predict that they will win the division...much less do it easily.

They (Jets) finished ahead of the Dolphins, and, even being generous with the linebacker positions, the Patriots are currently without viable starters at:

WR3
TE1
RG
RDE
OLB
CB1

And that's keeping Wilfork with the franchise tag, Considering Springs a starter, and keeping Thomas at one OLB position. I'm not sure what part of "as of now" you keep tripping over.

That's the point. You don't say anything about them. You state emphatically that the Pats have 10 or so complete holes in their roster. Jets holes? CB? S? NT? 3rd down RB? WR? Depth and age on the lines? Nothing.

The Jets don't currently have any running back issues, regardless of Washington. Perhaps you missed watching them in the playoffs? The CB you're talking about is still on the team. Jenkins is expected back but, even without him, the team had a fill in do the job. I'm not sure what claim you're trying to make about WR, since Edwards is RFA and will be back, and the Depth/Age issue makes no sense for the next couple of years. And, given the parameters of the question, that means that it makes no sense. The reality is that you're scrambling for non-existent issues over something that will be meaningless in a month.

What if Welker is back at full strength in 9 months, just after a PUP stint? That is a pretty reasonable estimation based on recent history. That means the Pats would have Welker for 9-10 regular season games and the playoffs. You never state your Welker expectations for 2010, yet constantly say his absence is a huge factor in your evaluation. Do you base it on him missing 6 games? Missing the year? Playing but not being effective?

Welker is gone and no timetable of "back by training camp" has been given, unlike in the Sanchez case. Until I get a time table, I'm not speculating on it, because that would be ridiculous. If he comes back and is at or near 100%, that would be IN THE FUTURE, and not 'right now'.

Not assuming anything, but definitely acknowledging the possibility. Either Butler will be a starting CB or Belichick will find a better one. Either Tate will be a starting WR or Belichick will find a better one. Regardless, the Pats will be fielding players at your "hole" positions that will either be the rookies they drafted last year or someone better. You take the perspective that is the worst of all worlds for the Pats. The rookies weren't able to displace experienced veterans last year, why would you expect them to be able to start now that they have a year of experience and full participation in the offseason program where they know what they are doing? Because it happens all the time. It is just as likely that UFAs will compete to fill these "holes", but since FA hasn't started yet, they can't be considered either. Even though there has been a cap for 15+ years, one uncapped year means that the next CBA won't have a cap. Any other ways of dumping on the Pats situation that I've missed?

I took no "worst of all worlds" perspective at all. Take off the homer goggles, for crying out loud. This is a time killing exercise based upon the state of the teams right now, because it's about being "In better Super Bowl shape".

And the "experienced veterans" argument doesn't hold water. The backup linebackers couldn't beat out a player that the coach benched. The backup corners were put in over Springs but couldn't hold onto the jobs. McGowan (not a rookie, but a new addition) took the starting spot from Sanders and then lost it again. Aikens sucked. Tate got injured, again, after the door was opened for him precisely BECAUSE an experienced veteran (Galloway) got the ax and Aiken sucked. Ohrnberger wasn't even the #1 backup on the interior line.

The thread is about evaluating the teams ability to compete for an event that won't happen for another 11+ months. You've concluded that the Jets are better positioned to compete for the SB than the Pats. You do that by dismissing where the Pats are better positioned than the Jets (ability to sign UFAs, boatload of picks in a deep draft). Anyone who doesn't align with your way of thinking is "supremely stupid" or "deluding themselves". Have fun ruling the universe you've built around yourself.

Actually, if you'd actually read what I posted, you'd see just how wrong your points here are. I clearly wasn't ignoring the UFAs, for example, since I was noting that Watson is the #1 rated UFA TE and Neal is the #1 rated UFA G.

UFA: half the usual UFAs will be on the market, with the majority of them being of the 'aged' type. Here.... feel free to peruse the list and try figuring out how the team is going to the make massive improvements you seem to be anticipating, given the market:

WalterFootball.com: 2010 NFL Free Agents


Here, in case you missed this post:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/323386-espn-jets-better-super-bowl-shape-than-pats-page3.html#post1732765

Note the use of free agents.

 

[emoney_33]

Why are you spending so much time trying to argue a point that is meaningless to be begin with? I know the answer already, but it's getting a little ridiculous.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Brady to Moss with no-one else.
Sanchez to Edwards with no-one else.

Ha ha.

Cotchery is not a bad receiver and Keller is a pretty good TE... Our TEs blow

IF Sanchez improves his interception to TD rate and the Jets get a top flight receiver the Jets are not only a force in the East...but in the league

To say the Jets don't have a better running game than the Pats is downright laughable - Give me Shonn Greene,Leon Washington and an old but still productive Thomas Jones over ANY of our backs...anytime.

I would say we are on an overall even keel with the Jets and it depends on the offseason whether we are considered best,second or even third in the division next season - DO NOT count out Parcell's Dolphins from rebounding.

 

[Kontradiction]

DO NOT count out Parcell's Dolphins from rebounding.

With the way they've been drafting, I wouldn't discount them. They have a lot of holes to fill, but they can still be competitive.

 

[Metaphors]

They (Jets) finished ahead of the Dolphins, and, even being generous with the linebacker positions, the Patriots are currently without viable starters at:

WR3
TE1
RG
RDE
OLB
CB1

And that's keeping Wilfork with the franchise tag, Considering Springs a starter, and keeping Thomas at one OLB position. I'm not sure what part of "as of now" you keep tripping over.

I wouldn't be that generous. Thomas is likely gone and Springs is a niche guy at this point in his career (if he sticks on the roster at all). I think we all have the same concerns about the same positions. We just part ways when considering anything but the guys under contract before the league year begins. Expiring contracts are not a weakness if you have the assets and plan to make those areas better. I consider those "unrealized" assets in evaluating the state of the Pats. You chose not to. I'll get back to you at the beginning of May when they are realized.

The Jets don't currently have any running back issues, regardless of Washington. Perhaps you missed watching them in the playoffs?

The Jets have a solid running game, primarily because they stick with it. The Pats could learn from them in that respect. I just wouldn't use the playoffs as Exhibit A in your argument. The Jets averaged under 4 YPA. If you take out Greene's 53 yd run (any idea what SD was defending against at that point in the game?), they averaged under 3.5 YPA...less than the Pats had against the Ravens. And its not like they faced stud run defenses. Cincy #7, SD #20, Indy #24.

The CB you're talking about is still on the team.

While I would love for the Jets to pick up Sheppard's option, it ain't happening. Even his mom wouldn't pay out a $10M bonus for him.

Jenkins is expected back but, even without him, the team had a fill in do the job.

There you go again.

Sione Pouha = Fill-in = No Problem
Mike Wright = Fill-in = Hole

I actually don't mind either assessment. Just apply the same criteria around "viability" to both teams.

I'm not sure what claim you're trying to make about WR, since Edwards is RFA and will be back,

Not talking about Clang. You have WR3 as a hole for the Pats but you are perfectly satisfied with Aundrae Allison as the Jets WR3. If Aiken sucks as a WR, Allison is a supermassive black hole.

and the Depth/Age issue makes no sense for the next couple of years. And, given the parameters of the question, that means that it makes no sense.

Depth makes no sense? Not sure how to respond to that.

As for age, older player tend to be more injury prone and their performance trends negatively from year to year. The Jets will have 6 of 8 starting linemen on the wrong side of 30 before week #1. All 6 of them could stay completely healthy and suffer no degradation in performance. I just wouldn't count on it.

The reality is that you're scrambling for non-existent issues over something that will be meaningless in a month.

We can bump this thread after the draft and try to find some meaning.

Actually, if you'd actually read what I posted, you'd see just how wrong your points here are. I clearly wasn't ignoring the UFAs, for example, since I was noting that Watson is the #1 rated UFA TE and Neal is the #1 rated UFA G.

And the Pats could re-sign both of them. If they choose not to, it will be because they believe they have better options. Those options are assets the Pats will use to improve the team. I choose to consider them. Again, see you in May.

UFA: half the usual UFAs will be on the market, with the majority of them being of the 'aged' type.

So the only UFAs on the market will be those with expiring contracts? Nobody will use the uncapped year to rid themselves of undesirable contracts? I don't know who the Pats will like in this UFA market. I do know they have the resources available to get any player that they really want. I guess we will just have to see.

So basically we can agree to disagree...at least until "right now" provides you with all the information you need.

 

[Coach42]

For me the Jets cannot be favored over the Patriots till Sanchez actually shows some promise. The guy never threw for 300 yards, only threw for 200 5 times, and threw 3 or more picks in a game 4 times. His rating was under 65 for the season, he only had 2400 yards all year and he managed to throw 20 fricking interceptions! 20! With only 12 TD's. Why is everyone excited about Sanchez???? If he was playing in any city other than NY, say Buffalo, are we even talking about him??

 

[Deus Irae]

I wouldn't be that generous. Thomas is likely gone and Springs is a niche guy at this point in his career (if he sticks on the roster at all). I think we all have the same concerns about the same positions. We just part ways when considering anything but the guys under contract before the league year begins. Expiring contracts are not a weakness if you have the assets and plan to make those areas better. I consider those "unrealized" assets in evaluating the state of the Pats. You chose not to. I'll get back to you at the beginning of May when they are realized.

Name the UFA upgrades to:

Neal
Watson
Faulk
Bodden

The Jets have a solid running game, primarily because they stick with it. The Pats could learn from them in that respect. I just wouldn't use the playoffs as Exhibit A in your argument. The Jets averaged under 4 YPA. If you take out Greene's 53 yd run (any idea what SD was defending against at that point in the game?), they averaged under 3.5 YPA...less than the Pats had against the Ravens. And its not like they faced stud run defenses. Cincy #7, SD #20, Indy #24.

They got to the AFCCG on the strength of their defense and running game. New England got waxed.

While I would love for the Jets to pick up Sheppard's option, it ain't happening. Even his mom wouldn't pay out a $10M bonus for him.

Again, I'm not sure what you're missing here.... He's currently on the team.

There you go again.

Sione Pouha = Fill-in = No Problem
Mike Wright = Fill-in = Hole

I actually don't mind either assessment. Just apply the same criteria around "viability" to both teams.

Pouha was the anchor for the #1 defense in the NFL. Green, not Wright, was the starter at RDE, and he had enough problems against the run that Wilfork had to be moved to DE to stop the bleeding.

Not talking about Clang. You have WR3 as a hole for the Pats but you are perfectly satisfied with Aundrae Allison as the Jets WR3. If Aiken sucks as a WR, Allison is a supermassive black hole.

Both teams suck past WR2. I'm not sure how that makes any point for you.

Depth makes no sense? Not sure how to respond to that.

When 'depth' is Sam Aiken, depth is a mirage.

As for age, older player tend to be more injury prone and their performance trends negatively from year to year. The Jets will have 6 of 8 starting linemen on the wrong side of 30 before week #1. All 6 of them could stay completely healthy and suffer no degradation in performance. I just wouldn't count on it.

Light, Brady, Warren, Wilfork, Springs, Mayo, Moss, Taylor, Morris... all significant players that are either older or dealing with injury seasons. The most important player for either team, Brady, is both getting up in years AND still trying to recover from major surgery. All of them could stay completely healthy and suffer no degradation in performance. I wouldn't count on that either. If the team were to re-sign Neal and Faulk, you could add them to this group, as well.

We can bump this thread after the draft and try to find some meaning.

Why? This thread will be irrelevant long before the draft even arrives, unless neither team makes any moves prior to that time. I don't think either of us expect that to be the case.

And the Pats could re-sign both of them. If they choose not to, it will be because they believe they have better options. Those options are assets the Pats will use to improve the team. I choose to consider them. Again, see you in May.

Until they re-sign them or find upgrades, they are unsigned and have no upgrades. This is basic stuff that you keep ignoring.

So the only UFAs on the market will be those with expiring contracts? Nobody will use the uncapped year to rid themselves of undesirable contracts? I don't know who the Pats will like in this UFA market. I do know they have the resources available to get any player that they really want. I guess we will just have to see.

Cut players can be signed by the Jets:

B. The Jets can sign any free agent who received that status as a result of the NFL Waiver system. What this means is that players who are cut from their current teams are fair game for the Jets. For example a player like QB Chad Pennington, who will be a free agent due to his contract running out, can not be signed by the Jets. However, if a player like Adalius Thomas is cut by the Patriots he can be signed by the team.

Jets 2010 Free Agency Limitations

New England has no advantage here.

So basically we can agree to disagree...at least until "right now" provides you with all the information you need.

"Right now" has already done so. The "in better Super Bowl shape" will begin changing along with the new NFL season. Hell, if the Patriots re-sign some of their free agents in the next couple of weeks, it can begin changing even sooner.

 

[emoney_33]

My goodness are you a Jets fan?

 

[Tunescribe]

My goodness are you a Jets fan?

No, he just doesn't like the Patriots all that much.

 

[Kontradiction]

No, he just doesn't like the Patriots all that much.

"If you are not with me... then you are my enemy".

 

[Metaphors]

Name the UFA upgrades to:

Neal
Watson
Faulk
Bodden

Neal => Already have guys in the pipeline
Watson => Options available in the draft to team with Baker (no true TE1)
Faulk => Options available in the draft like McCluster
Bodden => Bodden (I hear he knows the system)

Neal is injury-prone, Faulk is less effective, Watson is an underachiever (though he appeared to be playing hurt). These are prime areas to inject youth and energy.

They got to the AFCCG on the strength of their defense and running game. New England got waxed.

The Jets running game was mediocre during the playoffs. I stated the stats and you responded with "but they won didn't they " And you compare this to the Pats in a single game against a top 5 rush defense (#1 in YPA). The Jets running game in the regular season speaks for itself. You don't need to make stuff up about the playoffs.

Pouha was the anchor for the #1 defense in the NFL. Green, not Wright, was the starter at RDE, and he had enough problems against the run that Wilfork had to be moved to DE to stop the bleeding.

Even Jets fans wouldn't write that paragraph.

The rest of your post was just you peeing in the Pats cereal.

Jets have only 2 viable WRs => Aiken sucks
Jets have no quality depth => Aiken sucks
Jets are old on the lines => Pats are old/injured (kudos for not mentioning Aiken)

I hope for your sake that the Pats make some big moves for players you like. You are just in a bad place "right now" (unless you are a Jets fan).

 

[Deus Irae]

Neal => Already have guys in the pipeline
Watson => Options available in the draft to team with Baker (no true TE1)
Faulk => Options available in the draft like McCluster
Bodden => Bodden (I hear he knows the system)

Neal is injury-prone, Faulk is less effective, Watson is an underachiever (though he appeared to be playing hurt). These are prime areas to inject youth and energy.

Not one of the replacements is nearly as good as the player he's replacing (Bodden is obviously = to Bodden but, since that wasn't the question, your answer was irrelevant). How is the team supposed to be getting closer to the Super Bowl by using vastly inferior players?

The Jets running game was mediocre during the playoffs. I stated the stats and you responded with "but they won didn't they " And you compare this to the Pats in a single game against a top 5 rush defense (#1 in YPA). The Jets running game in the regular season speaks for itself. You don't need to make stuff up about the playoffs.

You used numbers which were useless without context and pulled the "without.... it would have been bad" as if it meant something. I didn't make anything up about the playoffs. You're the one taking runs away from the team.

Even Jets fans wouldn't write that paragraph.

Funny.... the Jets fans who were giving me crap after the Patriots got knocked out of the playoffs were saying exactly that.

The rest of your post was just you peeing in the Pats cereal.

No, the rest of my post was me responding to lousy arguments on your part.

Jets have only 2 viable WRs => Aiken sucks
Jets have no quality depth => Aiken sucks
Jets are old on the lines => Pats are old/injured (kudos for not mentioning Aiken)

So let's see.... You bash the Jets receivers. I respond by pointing out that both teams have lousy receivers after their top 2, and somehow that's a problem for you?

Depth: Having Aiken as WR3 isn't an example of poor depth? Should I have pointed to the players backing up Mayo/Guyton, or to Connolly being the #1 interior backup on the offensive line instead? Does that make any difference? There was poor depth at linebacker, defensive end, offensive guard/center, wide receiver....

As for the age, you were the one who introduced it to the discussion, not me.

I hope for your sake that the Pats make some big moves for players you like. You are just in a bad place "right now" (unless you are a Jets fan).

I'm a Patriots fan, as you well know. What's more, I'm in a great place "right now", when it comes to my 'fandom'. Unlike you, I don't have to delude myself to enjoy my team. I can take a simple mental exercise in February and admit that a team that's not my favorite is currently in better shape. You have to play the role of a Stepford fan.

I think Belichick will bounce back from his horrible 2009. That doesn't mean I should stick my head in the sand and pretend that a bounce back is necessary. I'll leave that to you.

Also, you're welcome for the information about waived players.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Neal => Already have guys in the pipeline
Watson => Options available in the draft to team with Baker (no true TE1)
Faulk => Options available in the draft like McCluster
Bodden => Bodden (I hear he knows the system)

Neal is injury-prone, Faulk is less effective, Watson is an underachiever (though he appeared to be playing hurt). These are prime areas to inject youth and energy.



The Jets running game was mediocre during the playoffs. I stated the stats and you responded with "but they won didn't they " And you compare this to the Pats in a single game against a top 5 rush defense (#1 in YPA). The Jets running game in the regular season speaks for itself. You don't need to make stuff up about the playoffs.



Even Jets fans wouldn't write that paragraph.

The rest of your post was just you peeing in the Pats cereal.

Jets have only 2 viable WRs => Aiken sucks
Jets have no quality depth => Aiken sucks
Jets are old on the lines => Pats are old/injured (kudos for not mentioning Aiken)

I hope for your sake that the Pats make some big moves for players you like. You are just in a bad place "right now" (unless you are a Jets fan).

When did Faulk become less effective? I must have missed it...

 

[Metaphors]

Not one of the replacements is nearly as good as the player he's replacing (Bodden is obviously = to Bodden but, since that wasn't the question, your answer was irrelevant). How is the team supposed to be getting closer to the Super Bowl by using vastly inferior players?

Neal has already been replaced in 19 games over the last 3 years.
For someone who thinks it is stupid to make statements before situations are known, you are pretty quick to declare anyone the Pats could draft to be vastly inferior to Watson and Faulk. It doesn't even matter if they are vastly inferior. It only matters if they perform better. No TE in this draft can do better than 29/404/5?
Is Bodden a UFA? If Bodden tests the market and decides to go back to the Pats, in what context is that irrelevant? Just because you insist that an UFA must be replaced with a different player? I contend that Bodden in year 2 should be better than Bodden in year 1.

You used numbers which were useless without context and pulled the "without.... it would have been bad" as if it meant something. I didn't make anything up about the playoffs. You're the one taking runs away from the team.

I used complete context. The Jets ran for under 4 YPA including ALL attempts against one good rush defense (Bengals) and 2 sub-par rush defenses (Bolts, Colts). Removing the Greene run provided additional context in that the Jets were actually pretty bad (under 3.5 YPA) in all other rushes (108 of them!) apart from that one run. These are facts. Your statement implied the Jets running game was a strength in the playoffs.

So let's see.... You bash the Jets receivers. I respond by pointing out that both teams have lousy receivers after their top 2, and somehow that's a problem for you?

The Jets have 2 WR on their roster that have caught a career TD pass. To draw any kind of equality with the Pats, you have to eliminate Welker AND declare Tate a bust at age 22 with a couple games of experience. I understand that until you see a recovery timeline for Welker, you effectively consider him not on the roster. I get it. No need to repeat.

Depth: Having Aiken as WR3 isn't an example of poor depth? Should I have pointed to the players backing up Mayo/Guyton, or to Connolly being the #1 interior backup on the offensive line instead? Does that make any difference? There was poor depth at linebacker, defensive end, offensive guard/center, wide receiver....

Please enlighten us on how deep the Jets roster is outside of the starters. Would love to hear it. No need to mention the Pats at all since you made your feeling clear already. Please give names and relevant stats. I'll spot you Greene and even Pouha. I'll even give you Slauson as a developmental guy with potential on the OL.

As for the age, you were the one who introduced it to the discussion, not me.

I mentioned that the Jets have 6/8 starting linemen over 30. That is a fact. You countered by mentioning Light (appropriate...Koppen as well), Warren (almost), Wilfork (nope), Brady (not a lineman last time I checked), Mayo (not a lineman, not 30, not even injured anymore), Springs (not a lineman, an infrequent starter), Moss (not a lineman), Taylor (not a lineman, infrequent starter) and Morris (not a lineman, infrequent starter). I didn't mention any of the other Jets players that are over 30.

Also, you're welcome for the information about waived players.

Already knew it. My point was that the Pats can pull from a greater UFA pool than the Jets. Not that the Jets pool is empty. So when you say that the Pats will have trouble filling their roster needs with UFAs, I pointed out the UFA list you provided will get larger in the near future. Since the Jets don't have any holes, this doesn't matter to them.

 

[Metaphors]

When did Faulk become less effective? I must have missed it...

Just for the record, I'm not hating on Faulk. His skills are trending downward as you would expect for a 33 yo RB. He doesn't get separation as quickly and his already limited breakaway ability is nonexistant now. He still have superior hands and pass blocking ability. He also does a fine job on draws out of the shotgun, but the damage he can inflict is limited.

I think the Pats need a player that operates quickly in space and is a threat to go all the way on a missed tackle. This also has an indirect impact by giving the blitz something else to think about besides killing Brady. I mentioned McCluster but he certainly isn't the only fit from this draft.

I wouldn't be upset if Faulk returns. With his contract up and the Pats with a boatload of picks, now might be a good time to get younger/faster at the position.