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ESPN: Jets in better Super Bowl shape than Pats


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Everyone in the NFL now has tape of both the jets and Dirty Sanchez, look at the drastic drop off in both Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco this year as opposed to their rookie seasons. The Jets have 3 draft picks (29, 61, 6th), and can not sign any Free Agents. They have to make a decision on thomas Jones in a few weeks (he has a 7 million dollar roster bonus coming up in March), Leon Washington is coming off an injury and is a restricted free agent, Faneca is 34, Woody 33, and they have no WRs and no depth. The Jets will take a serious step back this year.

Lol at their draft picks. That's good team management right there.
 
Except Wilfork will be franchised and the Pats have far more flexibility to make offseason moves and drastically improve. Come September there is a very high probability that the Pats the Pats will be significantly better while the Jets will be just about the same since they do not have the ability to make big moves in free agency and few draft picks.

If you think TBC will be the Pats' best pass rusher come September, I think you are crazy. Whether they get Peppers or someone else, they will upgrade that position.



Not a knock on TBC, but if he is our best pass rusher come sept, then we will be in trouble... But I doubt that will happen either..
 
Jets team to beat? I bet rex ryan has phone calls to all these analyst to big up their team. like the call he made to fans for pats/jets matchup on week2. "their superbowl"
 
I can't wait for the day that Tom Brady leaves and we draft a top notch QB in the first round.

Then we'll have the best long-term future.

Our window is closing in 4 years fellas, but after we draft a QB, we'll get another 10 to 15 year window.
 
So you'll just continue to ignore "That will likely change during the offseason" in the interest of defending a terrible position in a debate that will be irrelevant before March is even over? Well, given that you're repeatedly making that "week #15" comment which completely ignores Welker going down for the count and ignores the UFAs, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

So here is your statement:

The Jets are currently in better Super Bowl shape than the Patriots. It's not even close right now. That will likely change during the offseason, but people who think the Patriots are above the Jets right now are deluding themselves.

I guess I'm unclear on how you are comparing the teams. The Super Bowl is in 11+ months, so you are projecting that the Jets are more likely to get there than the Pats. You seem to project some things positively...Sanchez takes a big leap forward, Sheppard/Jones/Washington/Rhodes will be retained or adequately replaced, etc. And some things negatively...Welker is "down for the count" (out until week 7? out until 2011? career over?), none of the Pats youngsters will progress enough to be starters or get starter minutes, etc.

You keep using the term "right now". You obviously don't literally mean "right now" since Sanchez just had surgery. So I take it to mean that based on what you know for certain "right now", the Jets will be able to field a better team in September. UFA signings, draft picks, player progression, aging players, etc. are all uncertain so don't count them (though you do count on a Sanchez progression next year or your argument falls flat). It is fine if you want to set your own rules for your analysis, but not everyone evaluates teams the same as you.

By the time week #1 rolls around, the Jets will have a couple of rookies playing meaningful roles (probably WR and CB). The Pats will also have rookies on the field, probably at DE and OLB. The Jets probably won't sign any meaningful UFAs (as you mention, they aren't losing any) and the Pats will probably have a couple, likely at TE and OLB. None of these things are certain "right now" but the Pats and Jets will participate in the draft, trying to draft good players at positions of need. The Pats will sign UFAs because they always do. You are choosing to ignore these areas (where the Pats have clear advantages) "right now".

You also choose to ignore a potential future cap (where the Pats would also have a clear advantage) even though the loss of the salary floor/revenue sharing would dramatically change the makeup of the league...which is the ultimate unknown. Again, that works for you but not for a lot of other people.

My point is that you are shaping the debate based on your perspective. If your perspective is slanted to favoring the Jets, then you are going to have a more positive view of the Jets. Just don't be surprised when others don't share your perspective and "delude" themselves into drawing a different conclusion.
 
I can't wait for the day that Tom Brady leaves and we draft a top notch QB in the first round.

Then we'll have the best long-term future.

Our window is closing in 4 years fellas, but after we draft a QB, we'll get another 10 to 15 year window.

I don't know if the window is closing in four years. Elway was 38 when he won his second Super Bowl (37 when he won his first). Rich Gannon was 37 when he went to the Super Bowl and won the league MVP. There is no reason to believe that Brady can't play at an elite level into his late 30s barring injuries. I think if Brady can stay healthy, the Pats have 6-8 more years of a window with him.
 
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I can't wait for the day that Tom Brady leaves and we draft a top notch QB in the first round.

Then we'll have the best long-term future.

Our window is closing in 4 years fellas, but after we draft a QB, we'll get another 10 to 15 year window.

I always wonder when the time comes if BB will draft a top 10 pick QB or groom a late rounder like Brady, Cassel, Hoyer. I'd rather a late rounder in his 3rd year then drafting a college superstar to play from day one.
 
It is BEYOND silly to speculate on this now, before free agency, and before the draft is complete. The makeup of both teams will be completely different come September. And with that in mind, while i acknowledge that the Jets do have some nice young talent on that roster currently. They WILL be hamstrung with the CBA restrictions for adding free agents, and they WILL be hamstrung with only having 3 total picks in the upcoming draft.

The talent will still be there. But when the talent gets injured, thats when depth becomes important.

As a side note, I love where this is going. I can see the hype now. There run to the AFC championship game, and the medias love for all things Rex Ryan and his snappy quotes will have all the prognostications putting these guys on a pedestal before the season. Pre-season hype, does not guarentee in season success of coarse, but it does add pressure.

Meanwhile, the reigning team of the decade will fly a little lower which is fine with me.

(Unless we sign Peppers, and make some other high profile changes, then all bets are off)
 
I don't know if the window is closing in four years. Elway was 38 when he won his second Super Bowl (37 when he won his first). Rich Gannon was 37 when he went to the Super Bowl and won the league MVP. There is no reason to believe that Brady can't play at an elite level into his late 30s barring injuries. I think if Brady can stay healthy, the Pats have 6-8 more years of a window with him.

The problem with your theory is that Elway and Gannon won SBs late and a big part of that was DESIRE to win a Super Bowl....Brady has already acomplished that THREE TIMES and I am not so sure that when Brady reaches 37 he will have THAT DESIRE to play long enough to win another,he could get a 4th before he reaches 37 as well.

If you have never won a Super Bowl you obviously are much more pushed into playing late in your career to try and win one...Brady may very well hang it up before then....Look at Aikman for example who IMO was one of the greatest QBs ever and who at 34 decided all the punishment he obtained over the years was reason enough to quit and go home for good with those SB trophies.

I actually may be surprised if Brady plays after he reaches 37....time will tell

Do you think guys like Junior Seau who loves the game as much as Brady does would have come back out of retirement at 38 if he had won a title with the Chargers?..I say no chance

I think the team may offer Brady a 5 year contract extention after which when the contract expires he retires in 2015
 
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The problem with your theory is that Elway and Gannon won SBs late and a big part of that was DESIRE to win a Super Bowl....Brady has already acomplished that THREE TIMES and I am not so sure that when Brady reaches 37 he will have THAT DESIRE to play long enough to win another,he could get a 4th before he reaches 37 as well.

If you have never won a Super Bowl you obviously are much more pushed into playing late in your career to try and win one...Brady may very well hang it up before then....Look at Aikman for example who IMO was one of the greatest QBs ever and who at 34 decided all the punishment he obtained over the years was reason enough to quit and go home for good with those SB trophies.

I actually may be surprised if Brady plays after he reaches 37....time will tell

Do you think guys like Junior Seau who loves the game as much as Brady does would have come back out of retirement at 38 if he had won a title with the Chargers?..I say no chance

I think the team may offer Brady a 5 year contract extention after which when the contract expires he retires in 2015

Well, other than the fact that Brady has said just a month ago that he wants to play until he is 40 or longer and has a natural competitive edge, I guess your theory is right. Personally, barring injuries or a significant decline in talent, I would be utterly shocked if Brady retires before 37.

Aikman retired because of health issues. The guy had multiple concussions and decided to honor his tenth career concussion (several of them in his final season) with a retirement. Brady doesn't have those concussion issues. Again, I said barring injuries and I would say the risk of being punch drunk like Aikman was risking by playing would be an injury retirement. Aikman would have continued playing if he hadn't had 10 concussions over his career and missed multiple games his final season due to several concussions.

Favre has a ring and he continued to play. Montana had 4 rings and played until he was 38 and his skills were completely gone and he even was shipped off to KC. Steve Young played until he was 38 and would have played longer if his knee didn't knock him out of the game and he has a ring as a starter (2 as a back up). Jim Plunkett played until he was 39 eventhough he had two rings.
 
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The Jets O-line gave up 30 sacks on 390 attempts between Sanchez and Clemmens.. 1 every 13 drop backs. Sanchez was sacked 25 times on 364 attemps.. Or once every 14.6 drop backs. Still not good. I won't use Brady or Manning for comparison. I'll take Carson Palmer. He took 26 sacks on 466 drop backs ( 1 in 17.92 drop backs) . Philip Rivers took 25 sacks on 486 drop backs ( 1 in 19.44 drop backs).

The "hits" category doesn't take into consideration Sacks. Which it should.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I take the "hits" category with a grain of salt since it's pretty highly subjective.

This had pretty much everything to do with how long Sanchez held the ball, if you watched the Jets games. When he started releasing the ball quicker, the sacks slowed down. I'll use Roethlisberger as evidence of that.
 
Perspective, looking at the Patriots' starters:

No RG
No WR3
Question mark at WR2
No WR4
No TE1
No 3rd down RB

No RDE
No LOLB
No ROLB
No RILB
No CB1
Question mark at CB2
Question mark at P

The Jets are currently in better Super Bowl shape than the Patriots. It's not even close right now. That will likely change during the offseason, but people who think the Patriots are above the Jets right now are deluding themselves.

Have to agree. Good post.
DW Toys
 
I guess I'm unclear on how you are comparing the teams. The Super Bowl is in 11+ months, so you are projecting that the Jets are more likely to get there than the Pats. You seem to project some things positively...Sanchez takes a big leap forward, Sheppard/Jones/Washington/Rhodes will be retained or adequately replaced, etc. And some things negatively...Welker is "down for the count" (out until week 7? out until 2011? career over?), none of the Pats youngsters will progress enough to be starters or get starter minutes, etc.

1.) I've never stated that Sanchez will take a big leap forward.

2.) I never stated anything about Sheppard/Jones/Washington/Rhodes being replaced

3.) Welker blew out his ACL.

4.) If a player was not of starter caliber in 2009 for reasons other than health, why would you assume he'll be of starter caliber in 2010?

You keep using the term "right now". You obviously don't literally mean "right now" since Sanchez just had surgery. So I take it to mean that based on what you know for certain "right now", the Jets will be able to field a better team in September. UFA signings, draft picks, player progression, aging players, etc. are all uncertain so don't count them (though you do count on a Sanchez progression next year or your argument falls flat). It is fine if you want to set your own rules for your analysis, but not everyone evaluates teams the same as you.

It would be supremely stupid to evaluate the team as of 5 months from now when I don't know what that team will look like 5 months from now. As for Sanchez and his surgery, he had a procedure done to improve a situation that was already good enough for him to play with, and he's expected back by training camp. That's more than just a little different than the Welker situation.

By the time week #1 rolls around, the Jets will have a couple of rookies playing meaningful roles (probably WR and CB). The Pats will also have rookies on the field, probably at DE and OLB. The Jets probably won't sign any meaningful UFAs (as you mention, they aren't losing any) and the Pats will probably have a couple, likely at TE and OLB. None of these things are certain "right now" but the Pats and Jets will participate in the draft, trying to draft good players at positions of need. The Pats will sign UFAs because they always do. You are choosing to ignore these areas (where the Pats have clear advantages) "right now".

No, you're making claims about things that have not happened. I'm choosing not to do the same thing, because I'm not claiming to be prescient (The closest I've come to that is considering assuming that Sanchez will be back and healthy, and that was done because he's already had his surgery and has his recovery timetable already made public). As for the UFA, Watson is considered the #1 UFA TE, so getting a replacement for him via free agency will be considered a step down. The same is true of the Stephen Neal situation. I'd expect that some here would argue the same to be true with Bodden, as well. You might wish to peruse the list of UFAs before pimping it. While it's true that there are players like Dansby and Peppers out there, there aren't very many of them because of the rules regarding the uncapped year.

You also choose to ignore a potential future cap (where the Pats would also have a clear advantage) even though the loss of the salary floor/revenue sharing would dramatically change the makeup of the league...which is the ultimate unknown. Again, that works for you but not for a lot of other people.

Indeed, I'm also choosing to ignore a potential strike by aliens, since neither is currently the situation and, therefore, neither is relevant to the thread at hand, save as unfounded speculation.

My point is that you are shaping the debate based on your perspective. If your perspective is slanted to favoring the Jets, then you are going to have a more positive view of the Jets. Just don't be surprised when others don't share your perspective and "delude" themselves into drawing a different conclusion.

Your point is wrong, and it has been from the beginning, probably because you went knee-jerk rather than thoroughly reading what I'd posted (the nonsense about the rookies when my post was specifically about the starters would seem to reinforce this speculation). I'm "shaping the debate" based upon the question resulting from the ESPN piece. As of now, the Jets are in much better Super Bowl shape than the Patriots. As I've stated more than once, I expect that will change over the course of the offseason. However, potential gains (Dansby/Peppers/etc...) are not as beneficial as current talent until, and unless, those gains are realized, and the losses (Watson/Neal/etc..) are already realized, since the players are free agents.
 
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Re-sign Watson
Re-sign Neal
Re-sign Bodden
Sign Peppers
Sign Dansby
Trade for/sign Branch (or some other receiver who's better than Aiken)
Bring in 1-2 more quality receiving options via draft/free agency
Keep Thomas (or replace him with an upgrade)
Draft someone you 'know' can step in at DE right away
-OR-
Draft Cody and get Wilfork to slim down enough to allow him to move to DE as needed
Draft an OLB
Draft an ILB
Draft an OG who's ready to contribute should Neal go down due to injury

Do that, and the Patriots are probably right back at the top of the mountain, and most of that is within the Patriots control, at least in terms of making attempts at it.
 
Why Peppers? He looks like another FA bust waiting to happen.
 
what trash ! i've been reading nonsense like that article from espn for the past 20 something years. it's always the samething. ny(whatever over rated team of choice this week) have passed the boston( whatever team we've decided to trash this week). it's recyclable, it's boring and like every other year, it's wishful thinking. they've got all their fingers and toes crossed at espn.
 
Why Peppers? He looks like another FA bust waiting to happen.

I have reservations about signing him. That said, in a situation like the one I outlined, I think he could be successful as a 3-4 OLB, because the offense would be able to get the team out front, and Peppers would be able to just pin his ears back and attack the passer rather than being concerned about actually playing all facets of the LB position.
 
This had pretty much everything to do with how long Sanchez held the ball, if you watched the Jets games. When he started releasing the ball quicker, the sacks slowed down. I'll use Roethlisberger as evidence of that.

I recall one of the former QB commentators explaining the uptake in release to the scripting of and adherence to play call. If the OC guesses right and everyone picks up their blocks and gets off their chips timely and runs the correct route and catches the damn ball, those plays will work every time. Trouble is that seldom happens consistently and if the defense is disguising and guessing correctly that QB absent any capacity to adlib becomes a liability.

The trouble with gunslingers, and I count Sanchez and Ben and Cutler and Romo as that kind of QB at their core, is OC's and HC's are between a rock and a hard place when managing them. If you continue to hold them to a tight rein they eventually bristle because that game isn't what they long for, and you also run the risk of losing the great play capacity they flash from time to time altogether... Usually the you know what hits the fan when the OC or HC changes (usually the first to go or move on because the team isn't winning with the formula although Holmgren and Cowher and Tuna chose to move on while Shanny got canned)...and at least for a while thereafter they end up ruling the roost for better or worse. Those guys are emotional, impatient, less cerebral and more inclined to want to have fun on and off the field. They want to be Tom Brady absent the work ethic and dedication to detail and discipline.

Teams got a lot of film on Sanchez last season and saw all the stops pulled out in the playoffs. A year ago at this time the football media was preparing the wax molds for the Canton busts of Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Then they and their teams took a step back. It would be foolhardy to expect different much more or less from Sanchez. He had less college experience than either albeit in a pro system. Pete teaches his QB's to run a style pro offense well, against college defenses. What he always lacked was pro style defenses to test them against. Sanchez is dealing with a knee cleanup out of the gate this offseason, and he's feeling pretty good about himself because he's being encouraged to since he's being HC'd by a moron who spends his offseason downtime flipping off moronic wrestlemania fans...
 
This had pretty much everything to do with how long Sanchez held the ball, if you watched the Jets games. When he started releasing the ball quicker, the sacks slowed down. I'll use Roethlisberger as evidence of that.

Personally, I think it had to do with the Jets taking the ball out of his hands. He was 4-9 with 13 TDs and 21 INTs when passing 20 or more times including the playoffs. After passing well against Indy in the first two and half quarters, Sanchez reverted back to his old ways including throwing a pick when the Colts knew the Jets were passing.

Sanchez appears to be most effective when the Jets are running the ball down other team's throats and they can pick and choose when he throws and keep defenders off of him with the play action. If the Jets' running game is shutdown, he becomes the same old Sanchez.
 
Teams got a lot of film on Sanchez last season and saw all the stops pulled out in the playoffs. A year ago at this time the football media was preparing the wax molds for the Canton busts of Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Then they and their teams took a step back. ...

Goodness, Mo. You are tough!....It was Sanchez's rookie year last season. He was protected- just like Flacco was last year. I'll reserve judgement on him as a pro until year 3.

IMO Flacco and Ryan did not take steps back last year. Flacco inproved statistically and was hurt in the playoffs and Ryan had an inconsistient running game and was also hurt w/ a nasty toe injury. Plus his lousey games were vs NE, DAL, NO and NYJ- all decent to outstanding defensive teams...if anything he stayed the same.
 
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