Cornerbacks

[tanked_as_usual]

First off, no one said "a rookie LB could never contribute in to the Patriots defense." Its been said that it would take a very special rookie LB to contribute. Mayo and Guyton are those special types. They are the excpetions, not the rules.

copout for the ages........

 

[PATS68]

Another question for you. Your arguemnt that Vrables numbers are low becasue he is playing ROLB. What postion did LT play with the Giants under BB D. I think it was ROLB was it not?

 

[PATS68]

lmao..........

I feel the same way about you.

 

[DaBruinz]

Is what Peter King wrote fact or what he feels? Case and point. Mike Felger thinks and wrote that Randy Moss has dogged it. Points out that Moss dogged it for 78 of the 79 plays vs. the Jets. BB does Patriots Monday and says Moss was dominate player on the field. So if I read the article Felger wrote would I be educated? IE Peter King. I would be wrong according to the coach.

Its fact. As I said, why don't you go read the article.

Form your own thoughts.

Another point on King. He goes to a game and covers that one game.

You are a joke. You can't even be bothered to go read the article because you are afraid of being wrong. So you sit there in your ignorance and make things up in an attempt to deflect responsibility. As for forming my own thoughts, I do that just fine. Most people know that. You clearly don't. But then, you seem to have a pole up your butt anyways.

Still have not provided a link to support your argument.

I like many see it different. The guy had a great run with the Pats. He has played a lot of football games and I think father time has cuaght up to him. I don't think postion change like your pointing to is the reason. He has slowed down.

It comes down to a point in the play when you have to win a one on one battle.

[/I]

Good for you. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But that doesn't refute anything I've said.

I read Pepper Johnson's book. He talks about the draft. If the patriots for see a player with a contract problem or a player that is getting old, they target that postion in the draft. This last draft tells me all I need to know when they drafted all those LBs.

And I've read the books like Patriots Reign and the others about Belichick and Pioli. And they draft based on value. Need is a part of that. However, they've NEEDED LBs for the past 5 years and only once did they draft a LB above the 3rd round. They wanted Stewart Bradley last year, but weren't able to get a deal done. It doesn't change the fact that Mayo and Guyton are exceptions to the rule.

Where was Vrable in the Super Bowl. AD playing ROLB was all over the field.
Vrable did a no show. Explain this to me.

Vrabel did a no show? Why? Because he didn't put up 10 tackles and 5 sacks ? You do realize this is a TEAM, yes?

You and I both know he has played more than one game on the other side.

Why are you making such a big deal even if Vrable is lining up at ROLB? What does this have to do with having low numbers[/B]?

Vrabel has different responsibilities when he lines up at ROLB than when he was lining up at LOLB. It puts him in a different part of the field. I can understand that. You don't seem to be able to.

Brady has a better overall record that Manning your right. So Stats mean crap, but you just based your argument off a STAT. Nice try pal. To get into the discussion you need a starting point and that starting point is stats. People then can argue who is better and all that.

What about Dan Marino? Can't judge him on championships, so you go by his stats.

WOW. You really are ignorant. I used a STAT to prove that your argument is garbage. It proves that STATS aren't the ONLY thing you judge a player off of.

As for Dan Marino, his stats don't tell everything about him, do they?

Why would they not be in the hall of fame?

Why would Fouts and Bradshaw not be in the Hall of Fame? Because their stats are mediocre at best. Bradshaw only made the Hall of Fame because he was on the Steel Curtain teams of the 70's.

Pancake blocks, Not giving up sacks, years played. Pro bowl votes.

Pancake blocks are not an official stat of the NFL. Years played doesn't mean a damn thing if there is no consistency. Pro Bowl votes? Are you kidding me? The Pro-Bowl is a popularity contest in which not even the "best players" necessarily play since every year there are some players or bow out for various reasons.

Did he not write about Randy Moss and the fact he could not run? You have no clue what Borges standars are for voting. Listening to Peter Gammons the other day talk about Baseball MVP voting. There is a voter who picks a name out of a hat every year. So much for voting. Some voters won't vote for Jim Rice becasue he was not nice to the media.

Borges wrote that about Moss before Moss had stepped onto the field. While I may not no what Borges standards are, neither do you. And I'd be willing to bet that his standards deal a lot more with the all around game than just stats that don't tell the whole story.

Why do you mention Peter Gammons? You act like he is the typical Hall of Fame voter for ALL sports. He's not.

Stats are everything in football. The stat of getting off the field on 3rd down or keeping a drive going on 3rd down is a key stat coaches turn to. Turnovers in a game will determine who most likely will win the game 80% of the timeThere was an MIT professor who gave BB Stat break down on going for it on 4th down.

Stats are not everything in football. And I love how you go from talking about the statistical measures that the league uses to measures that coaches use regarding other teams.

You can't even stay on subject.

 

[DaBruinz]

Another question for you. Your arguemnt that Vrables numbers are low becasue he is playing ROLB. What postion did LT play with the Giants under BB D. I think it was ROLB was it not?

The position that LT played with the Giants has nothing to do with the position that Vrabel is playing. The teams are different. And the defenses are as well.

 

[Gicksauce]

Yeah I mean the defenses are a lot different.

The Giants had BB as the defensive coordinator and the Pats have dean pees.

Nothing alike.

 

[PATS68]

[/B]

Its fact. As I said, why don't you go read the article.


Ok, again it is what King thinks and not fact. I gave you a great example that you can not dispute. So is Felger right or wrong? Is what Felger says fact or what he feels. Felger thought he saw one thing when in reality it was another.

If you want to give NFL Netwroks or ESPN's film break down shows that former players do, then you got me. A writer, all set and don't think so.

Speaking of Borges that you think so highly of. He wrote an article on the former Pats QB coach **** R. Borges wrote that he died from a battle with cancer. THE GUY DIED OF A HEART ATTACK!!! [/B]


You are a joke. You can't even be bothered to go read the article because you are afraid of being wrong. So you sit there in your ignorance and make things up in an attempt to deflect responsibility. As for forming my own thoughts, I do that just fine. Most people know that. You clearly don't. But then, you seem to have a pole up your butt anyways.

Is the truth hurting you? Name calling?? What are we 12 or something? Name calling wow!!
[/I]

Good for you. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But that doesn't refute anything I've said.




And I've read the books like Patriots Reign and the others about Belichick and Pioli. And they draft based on value. Need is a part of that. However, they've NEEDED LBs for the past 5 years and only once did they draft a LB above the 3rd round. They wanted Stewart Bradley last year, but weren't able to get a deal done. It doesn't change the fact that Mayo and Guyton are exceptions to the rule.

You just did me a favor, let my friend borrow my Patriot Reign book. I need to get that back. Good book, I agree.

[/B][/I]

Vrabel did a no show? Why? Because he didn't put up 10 tackles and 5 sacks ? You do realize this is a TEAM, yes?

He brought nothing to the game. Believe me I have a Patriots shirt with his number on it. He was a HUGE dissapointment. So Randy Moss can be ripped by the media for catching one or two balls in a playoff game, but Vrable did a no show in the SB and somehow I am wrong.

You and I both know he has played more than one game on the other side.

Why are you making such a big deal even if Vrable is lining up at ROLB? What does this have to do with having low numbers?

[/b]

Vrabel has different responsibilities when he lines up at ROLB than when he was lining up at LOLB. It puts him in a different part of the field. I can understand that. You don't seem to be able to.

What postion did LT play when he was with the Giants and BB was running the D. Was it not ROLB?


[/B]

WOW. You really are ignorant. I used a STAT to prove that your argument is garbage. It proves that STATS aren't the ONLY thing you judge a player off of.

As for Dan Marino, his stats don't tell everything about him, do they?

I have heard it time and time again from experts this year that the great QB ever to play in the NFL is Brett Farve. Why do they say this, becasue he has all stat records.

I think me and you would agree that he is not even close to being the greatest QB, but they go by the stats.

What else do they point to when it comes to Marino? Beating the Bears, fake spike and most TD thrown in one year. What else??
[/B][/I]

Why would Fouts and Bradshaw not be in the Hall of Fame? Because their stats are mediocre at best. Bradshaw only made the Hall of Fame because he was on the Steel Curtain teams of the 70's.

Steve Young for example, Yes he won a SB, but they point to his Stats. I would have to look up Fouts and Bradshaw numbers. Were they not the 2 best QB's of heir era.





Pancake blocks are not an official stat of the NFL. Years played doesn't mean a damn thing. Pro Bowl votes? Are you kidding me? The Pro-Bowl is a popularity contest in which not even the "best players" necessarily play since every year there are some players or bow out for various reasons.

The reason why I siad pro-bowl votes, becasue other NFL players also vote for the pro bowl. Years played I think is important. I watched an interview between Bruce Matthews of Titans and Anothny M. Of the Bengals. It was a HOF interview. And they both agree that for a O-linemen to make the HOF years played is important.

[/B]

Borges wrote that about Moss before Moss had stepped onto the field. While I may not no what Borges standards are, neither do you. And I'd be willing to bet that his standards deal a lot more with the all around game than just stats that don't tell the whole story.

Ok, did Tippett thank Borges in his HOF speech for talking to other writers on his behalf? I have heard it on espn and NFL network that writers who cover a certain team will try to push for their guy. I would do it so wouldn't you.

Why do you mention Peter Gammons? You act like he is the typical Hall of Fame voter for ALL sports. He's not.

I was referring to a story he was saying on espn news. It was not him, but another writer.




Stats are not everything in football. And I love how you go from talking about the statistical measures that the league uses to measures that coaches use regarding other teams.

You can't even stay on subject.

We agree to disagree. Why don't you ever answer my questions?

 

[PATS68]

The position that LT played with the Giants has nothing to do with the position that Vrabel is playing. The teams are different. And the defenses are as well.

Why becasue it does not work for you.


Wrong, Patriots vs Cowboys when Parcells was the coach of the Cowboys. During the press conf. Parcells was asked about the Pats D. Parcells went onto say that the Patriots D was doing the same thing the Giants D did when BB was the coach there. This is coming from an expert and not you.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why becasue it does not work for you.


Wrong, Patriots vs Cowboys when Parcells was the coach of the Cowboys. During the press conf. Parcells was asked about the Pats D. Parcells went onto say that the Patriots D was doing the same thing the Giants D did when BB was the coach there. This is coming from an expert and not you.

Sure he did. Of course, you don't provide a link. And the defenses are different because the players are different. The Patriots coaching staff does its best to put its players in a position to make plays. To do that, they have to compensate for the skills and attributes that players have.

Its clear that you are looking at things in broad, general terms, where I am looking at things in more exact terms.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, again it is what King thinks and not fact. I gave you a great example that you can not dispute. So is Felger right or wrong? Is what Felger says fact or what he feels. Felger thought he saw one thing when in reality it was another.

IT IS FACT. All you have to do is stop being dumb, go add up the number of TACKLES a team had and compare it to the number of defensive plays. That's what King did.

Your Felger example isn't even on the subject so its WORTHLESS and has no bearing.

If you want to give NFL Netwroks or ESPN's film break down shows that former players do, then you got me. A writer, all set and don't think so.

Speaking of Borges that you think so highly of. He wrote an article on the former Pats QB coach **** R. Borges wrote that he died from a battle with cancer. THE GUY DIED OF A HEART ATTACK!!!

[/b]

Again, you talk about things that have no bearing on the subject at hand.

Is the truth hurting you? Name calling?? What are we 12 or something? Name calling wow!!

Clearly the truth is hurting YOU since you can't be bothered to actually address things.

He brought nothing to the game. Believe me I have a Patriots shirt with his number on it. He was a HUGE dissapointment. So Randy Moss can be ripped by the media for catching one or two balls in a playoff game, but Vrable did a no show in the SB and somehow I am wrong.

How did he bring nothing to the game? Cause you say so? You've already proven that your evaluation skills are pretty worthless. Its becoming clear that you don't understand the basis of the 3-4 defense.

BTW, Vrabel was getting double teamed all night during the SuperBowl. Usually with a TE and a Tackle. That IS doing something. Its freeing another player up to put pressure on the QB.



Quote:

I have heard it time and time again from experts this year that the great QB ever to play in the NFL is Brett Farve. Why do they say this, becasue he has all stat records.

I think me and you would agree that he is not even close to being the greatest QB, but they go by the stats.

What else do they point to when it comes to Marino? Beating the Bears, fake spike and most TD thrown in one year. What else??
[/b][/i]

Brett Favre is considered to be one of the greatest for a variety of reasons. NOT just his stats because his stats only tell part of the story. The stats don't show the leadership he's shown. Its not just stats.

For Marino, there are a variety of things. The number of years that the Dolphins had winning seasons being one of them. His leadership is another. Again, its about context.

Steve Young for example, Yes he won a SB, but they point to his Stats. I would have to look up Fouts and Bradshaw numbers. Were they not the 2 best QB's of heir era.

They don't just point to Young's stats. What made Bradshaw one of the best QBs of his era? His clutch performances. His leadership ability. But not his stats.

The reason why I siad pro-bowl votes, becasue other NFL players also vote for the pro bowl. Years played I think is important. I watched an interview between Bruce Matthews of Titans and Anothny M. Of the Bengals. It was a HOF interview. And they both agree that for a O-linemen to make the HOF years played is important.

[/b]

The number of year playing consistently at a HIGH LEVEL, is what matters for an O-lineman. There are plenty of O-linemen who play 8, 10 or 12 years who won't ever get a sniff of a Hall of Fame ballot because they don't have the consitency.

As for the Pro Bowl, Its still a popularity contest even with the players casting votes. Otherwise Rodney Harrison would have been more than he has.

Ok, did Tippett thank Borges in his HOF speech for talking to other writers on his behalf? I have heard it on espn and NFL network that writers who cover a certain team will try to push for their guy. I would do it so wouldn't you.

I am fairly certain that Tippett's original nomination came from Borges. I could be wrong though.

We agree to disagree. Why don't you ever answer my questions?

I've given answers to your questions when they've been relevent to the subject at hand.

 

[DaBruinz]

copout for the ages........

There was no copout there, Tanked. But, as usual, you throw in the worthless 2 cents.

 

[PATS68]

It was on weei, phone confrence call with the NE media the week they played the Cowboys. Parcells was asked about Pats D and he stated that the pats were running almost same stuff they were running when both he and BB coached at the Giants.

I don't know if you live in NE or not but on Comcast Sports at 6:30 pm they were talking about your boy. Felger and Gresh both believe he is not the same player he used to be. Pointed to his 2 sacks and the Patriots lack of a pass rush. Talked about that weei article about the 90+ passer rating the Pats secondary is giving up. Good read.

How old is that King story? Well I don't think he came up with the great story you want to give him credit for. http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/nws...stories/080608dnspoinsidethenfl.141e71c8.html

This writer is one of the best when it comes to the draft.

This is not from me, but another fan. I don't think you have a leg to stand on any more with your Vrable argument.


Hi Felger,

I think it's about time that the Patriots look to replace both Vrabel and Bruschi and address the cornerback situation. I think the front seven should be the top priority this off season because it could also help that secondary. The pass rush is inconsistent at best and Vrabel in particular has shown over the course of this year and last year's playoffs that he is no longer an impact player. For proof of that, just look at his sack totals this year compared to last year. The domino effect of Vrabel's drop off is that the Patriots defense is in the bottom third in third-down efficiency and among the worst in red-zone defense.



Bob
Haverhill

A: The Pats rank 27th in the NFL in third-down defense (43 percent) and 29th in red zone defense (62.1 TD percentage). That’s a system-wide issue. You can’t just blame Vrabel, although his stat line is getting downright scary, with just two sacks on the season, both coming Week 1 against Kansas City. After a 12.5-sack campaign last year, Vrabel has now gone over two months without a single sack. His current nine-game drought is by far the longest of his Patriots career. If you factor in Week 17 in 2007 and the Pats three playoff games that year (no sacks in any of those games), Vrabel has now gone without a sack in 13 of his last 14 games. Not what you’re looking for. That said, I wouldn’t give up on him. I think an offseason shoulder surgery has affected him. He’s no spring chicken at 33, but he’s not done, either. Bruschi is much closer to the end than Vrabel. But to your overall point, if the Pats don’t draft a single offensive player for another two years I’d be fine with it.

 

[RayClay]

I read that Belichick became a secondary coach after being a special teams coach, and it didnt go so well, the CBs didn't listen to him, etc.

I think he has a complex against them now

 

[jbb9s]

When Ty Law peaked, very good things happened for this team. For one, he owned the best QB in the league in multiple games, including the playoffs. Also, he returned a pick 6 that basically was the turning point in the first super bowl (I know I know it was the Vrabel blitz but just sayin).

It would be nice to get back to that there with someone else, wouldn't it?

 

[Gicksauce]

Agree completely jb

Lockdown corners can change a game pretty quickly

Having a run-stuffing ILB is great, but a pick 6 in a big game against a big offense is huge

 

[BionicPatriot]

When Ty Law peaked, very good things happened for this team. For one, he owned the best QB in the league in multiple games, including the playoffs. Also, he returned a pick 6 that basically was the turning point in the first super bowl (I know I know it was the Vrabel blitz but just sayin).

It would be nice to get back to that there with someone else, wouldn't it?

I don't think he was lock down in the 00's unless he has a pass rush infront of himself. Didn't he have a "meh" season at corner in 00? Rebound in 01, do little in 02, and have a ridiculous 03? That's what I remember anyway. Coincidently, the two times he did have a great pass rush he turned into a great corner.

I'm not knocking Law. A great corner is only great when his pass rush is working (see Champ Bailey, example #1) It's not like they suck, they're just not as effective without a top pass rush.

 

[Gicksauce]

Some of that is BB BS

A top notch secondary can make the pass rush a lot easier (QB sits in the pocket longer) just like a top notch pass rush makes secondary coverage a lot easier (QB forces throws to avoid a sack)

it works both ways

 

[Kontradiction]

Some of that is BB BS

A top notch secondary can make the pass rush a lot easier (QB sits in the pocket longer) just like a top notch pass rush makes secondary coverage a lot easier (QB forces throws to avoid a sack)

it works both ways

Yes because the Chargers and the Cowboys are pure examples of that. Last year, the Chargers led the league in INTs because Merriman was still in there and wreaking havoc in the pass rush. This year, Merriman is lost for the season, the pass rush is non existant, and the Chargers are near the bottom of the league in pass rush.

 

[Gicksauce]

WEEI NOW RIPPING OFF MY THREADS!!!!

WEEI 850AM Sports Radio - Bad Moves By Patriots Have Led To A Bad Secondary

 

[PATS68]

DaBruinz

Did you watch CSN tonight and the clip they did on Vrable? Talked to him about his lack of sacks and he pretty upset with it. It was pretty funny, they went around the locker room and asked a bunch of his team mates if Vrable has been cranky about his lack of sacks. They all said he has.

Felger got balls to drop back in the interview with a football in his hand and yell for Vrable to sack him to get the monkey off his back.

The three guys on CSN all think Vrables numbers were so high last year do to the O last year and putting the other O in a known postion.

Point to the fact that in the last 13 of 14 games Vrable has only had 2 sacks and they came in week 1 vs KC.