Cornerbacks

[ScottieC]

CB is the only position (besides QB) where Belichick/Pioli have never used a 1st round pick, made a trade, or made a significant free agent signing

Why is that?

Probably because Bill thinks he can scheme a game with anyone he has, no matter who that may be - Rookie or Vet.

 

[Gicksauce]

And then Plax catches one in the endzone and there goes that theory

 

[DaBruinz]

No, but it might explain why the secondary has been an annual mess since 2003

How would it explain why the "secondary has been an annual mess since 2003."? You act like the Pats brass should be able to predict these catastrophic injuries that have occured. Like Law's Lis Franc injury, or Gay's torn shoulder muscles, or Wheatley's broken LEFT wrist. Or Hobbs sports hernia.

 

[DaBruinz]

And then Plax catches one in the endzone and there goes that theory

Plax catching the one in the endzone isn't even the one that killed the Pats. It was the 2 catches by Tyree after he beat Samuel.

 

[Kontradiction]

Plax catching the one in the endzone isn't even the one that killed the Pats. It was the 2 catches by Tyree after he beat Samuel.

I never got that "lucky catch" excuse. If I were to blame the Super Bowl loss on something, it would be the loss of Stephen Neal. The lucky catch did happen. It did net them a first down. But a first down does not put points on the board. After that, the Pats still had three more chances to stop the Giants offense and simply could not. I won't be an idiot and blame this on Belichick though. Safety help should have been over the top (considering how badly Hobbs got DOMINATED by Burress in the two games) and it was not.

 

[ScottieC]

Plax catching the one in the endzone isn't even the one that killed the Pats. It was the 2 catches by Tyree after he beat Samuel.

Nothing like getting kicked in the family jewels on a Tuesday afternoon. Thanks.

 

[PATS68]

DaBruinz, you have to be the worst poster I have ever read. You act like your in the meeting room with the coaches and players. You act like you know the game plans.

You try to defend Patriots players who can't play or are washed up.

 

[Kontradiction]

DaBruinz, you have to be the worst poster I have ever read. You act like your in the meeting room with the coaches and players. You act like you know the game plans.

You try to defend Patriots players who can't play or are washed up.

I used to think this too but the guy actually gives pretty good analysis. He may be pig headed to the point where he sometimes becomes a troll but the one thing I can give the guy is that he rarely tries to back up his point without facts... something you should look into doing.

 

[mgteich]

I agree, other than the troll comment.

I used to think this too but the guy actually gives pretty good analysis. He may be pig headed to the point where he sometimes becomes a troll but the one thing I can give the guy is that he rarely tries to back up his point without facts... something you should look into doing.

 

[letekro]

Their CBs are constantly getting burned for huge games

They used to be able to cover it up with a stud front 7 and defensive schemes, but now the D is aging and the schemes aren't fooling anyone


You're telling me having Ty Law back in 2001 didn't make a significant difference? Did you see the Super Bowl?

I think J-A-G O-T-I-S made an equally huge contribution. Did YOU see the Super Bowl?

 

[Kontradiction]

I agree, other than the troll comment.

It reads that way but I wasn't actually calling him a troll. Just saying that he sometimes gets so intense with his posts that he comes off as a troll to others.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Asante Samuel was a 4th rounder, eventually considered an elite CB.
Ellis Hobbs was a 3rd rounder, eventually a solid starting CB.

With the Pats, CB seems to be a position where it's more about your development within the system than your individual talent. I believe once Wheatley develops he's going to be a solid starter for us opposite Hobbs (if he is still here in a few years).

This team's had great success with their 1st rounders aside from the TE's and Maroney (jury still out).

 

[DaBruinz]

I never got that "lucky catch" excuse. If I were to blame the Super Bowl loss on something, it would be the loss of Stephen Neal. The lucky catch did happen. It did net them a first down. But a first down does not put points on the board. After that, the Pats still had three more chances to stop the Giants offense and simply could not. I won't be an idiot and blame this on Belichick though. Safety help should have been over the top (considering how badly Hobbs got DOMINATED by Burress in the two games) and it was not.

Considering that Hobbs was playing with 2 pretty big injuries, I'd hardly say he was dominated.

 

[DaBruinz]

DaBruinz, you have to be the worst poster I have ever read. You act like your in the meeting room with the coaches and players. You act like you know the game plans.

You try to defend Patriots players who can't play or are washed up.

Pats68 - Not sure how you can interpret what I say as me "acting like I am in the meeting rooms with the coaches and players" or acting "like I know the game plans."

I defend Bruschi because, though he's 35, he continues to play with a high level of intensity and he doesn't get beat much. He's been a great mentor for Mayo and for Guyton. You can see it by them talking on the sidelines and from on the field.

As Kontradiction mentioned, I used facts. Its well known that Hobbs had 2 major injuries at the end of last year when we played the Giants both times. One was a sports hernia, an injury that Donovan McNabb wasn't able to play through. The other I believe was a labrum injury.

Am I stubborn? Yep. But there are plenty of people on here who I respect and give full thought to their opinions as well. And if I make a mistake or am proven wrong, I own up to it.

 

[PATS68]

I used to think this too but the guy actually gives pretty good analysis. He may be pig headed to the point where he sometimes becomes a troll but the one thing I can give the guy is that he rarely tries to back up his point without facts... something you should look into doing.

I don't think he gives a good analysis at all. Two points which he has argued with people on the board. The play of Hobbs and Vrabel.

Hobbs last year gave up the most yards per a reception in th whole NFL at 9.6 yards. Almost a 1st down every time QB dops back to throw on his side. After the Redskins game last year, Hobbs gave up a long ball in almost every game.

He is a nickle back at best on a championship team.

Vrable, did the guy even play in the Super Bowl last year? 2 sacks through 10games this year. From Pats web site he only has 19 solo tackles. The guy had a great run with the team and helped win championships. The fact of the matter is age has caught up to him and it will for every player.

His argument is that Vrabel is to set the edge. He has failed in his argument that setting the edge is for the run. Coach BB has said time and time again, when the QB drops back to pass, everyone on the D-line and OLB turns into pass rushers not run stuffers.

Another point on Vrable. RB, TE and WR's are running faster and faster times at the combine. That type of speed is and has shown up on the field. The Pats have to get faster to compete with other teams.

 

[Kontradiction]

Considering that Hobbs was playing with 2 pretty big injuries, I'd hardly say he was dominated.

Burress was playing with a bum ankle all year long and was held out of practice almost exclusively. That injury is devestating for a wide receiver. I'd say that pretty much evens things out unless you want to speculate whether or not Burress was faking it just to avoid practice.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think he gives a good analysis at all. Two points which he has argued with people on the board. The play of Hobbs and Vrabel.

Hobbs last year gave up the most yards per a reception in th whole NFL at 9.6 yards. Almost a 1st down every time QB dops back to throw on his side. After the Redskins game last year, Hobbs gave up a long ball in almost every game.

He is a nickle back at best on a championship team.

Could you please provide a link to your info?

Vrable, did the guy even play in the Super Bowl last year? 2 sacks through 10games this year. From Pats web site he only has 19 solo tackles. The guy had a great run with the team and helped win championships. The fact of the matter is age has caught up to him and it will for every player.

His argument is that Vrabel is to set the edge. He has failed in his argument that setting the edge is for the run. Coach BB has said time and time again, when the QB drops back to pass, everyone on the D-line and OLB turns into pass rushers not run stuffers.

Another point on Vrable. RB, TE and WR's are running faster and faster times at the combine. That type of speed is and has shown up on the field. The Pats have to get faster to compete with other teams.

As for Vrabel, if you are going to credit me with having said something, quote me instead of being dumb about it. No where did I ever say that Vrabel's ONLY job is to set the edge. I said that's his PRIMARY job. And yes, I was referring to the run. In passing situations, He was responsible for covering the TE on his side and many times the RB if he came over. Vrabel was also dropping back in a lot of zone coverages while Thomas was rushing. I didn't fail in my argument.

My argument was that Vrabel's job description has changed since the start of last year and that if you don't take that into consideration as part of your analysis, you are being ignorant.

Also, I suggest you go read the Peter King article on TACKLES and how its not much of a stat to judge play by.

BTW, did you watch last week's game? If so, tell me did you happen to see Vrabel draw the LT and Seymour slide right by and make the sack? No?

BTW, BB has NOT said that everyone's job on the D-line is to become Pass-rushers in passing situations. The Pats rarely rush 5 people. Its typically 4 people.

 

[PATS68]

Could you please provide a link to your info?
Espn Radio, I think his name is mike sock or something like that. Fills in for Jason Smith sometimes on espn all night. He is from Boston. Gave a bunch of Pats stats and went on and on about how bad Hobbs stinks. Gave a bunch of stats on Hobbs and the 9.6 yards really stood out to me.


As for Vrabel, if you are going to credit me with having said something, quote me instead of being dumb about it. No where did I ever say that Vrabel's ONLY job is to set the edge. I said that's his PRIMARY job. And yes, I was referring to the run. In passing situations, He was responsible for covering the TE on his side and many times the RB if he came over. Vrabel was also dropping back in a lot of zone coverages while Thomas was rushing. I didn't fail in my argument.

Look under the Vrable thread from a couple of weeks ago, It is all there budy. Go read what you wrote.

My argument was that Vrabel's job description has changed since the start of last year and that if you don't take that into consideration as part of your analysis, you are being ignorant.

There you go again putting yourself in the meeting room with the coaches and players. You are the only person that has said that Vrable's job has changed. Who else is saying this? Is this your theory, or did you hear the real coach say this?

Also, I suggest you go read the Peter King article on TACKLES and how its not much of a stat to judge play by. The same Peter King who likes to hear himself talk and who would not let spygate go?

Stats mean everything. When they vote for the HOF for a D player, you don't think they look at TACKLES? D. Ryans for Houston when he won D rookie of the year. What did everyone point to? TACKLES!! People are talking about Mayo and they talk about how many tackles he has had.

BTW, did you watch last week's game? If so, tell me did you happen to see Vrabel draw the LT and Seymour slide right by and make the sack? No?

BTW, BB has NOT said that everyone's job on the D-line is to become Pass-rushers in passing situations. The Pats rarely rush 5 people. Its typically 4 people.[/QU We will agree to disagree on this one.

 

[DaBruinz]

Espn Radio, I think his name is mike sock or something like that. Fills in for Jason Smith sometimes on espn all night. He is from Boston. Gave a bunch of Pats stats and went on and on about how bad Hobbs stinks. Gave a bunch of stats on Hobbs and the 9.6 yards really stood out to me.

So, you have nothing but heresay as support? And heresay from ESPN, none the less.

Look under the Vrable thread from a couple of weeks ago, It is all there budy. Go read what you wrote.

I don't need to go and look under the Vrabel thread. I KNOW what I wrote. And no where did I say that Vrabel's ONLY job was to set the edge against the run.

There you go again putting yourself in the meeting room with the coaches and players. You are the only person that has said that Vrable's job has changed. Who else is saying this? Is this your theory, or did you hear the real coach say this?

*ROFLMAO* You think that my saying what Vrabel's responsibilities are is my putting myself in the meeting rooms? I am NOT the only person who has said Vrabel's job has changed. He's playing an entirely different position. Watch the friggin games and you'd see for yourself. Vrabel is lining up, primarily, at ROLB. Where Rosie Colvin lined up last year.

Stats mean everything. When they vote for the HOF for a D player, you don't think they look at TACKLES? D. Ryans for Houston when he won D rookie of the year. What did everyone point to? TACKLES!! People are talking about Mayo and they talk about how many tackles he has had.

Stats mean NOTHING without context. Demeco Ryans won rookie of the year for the Texans because of his stellar play. NOT just the number of tackles. And only the ignorant are talking about how many tackles Mayo has. The number of tackles doesn't matter if the opposing player got 10 yards on the play.

BTW, why don't you email Ron Borges and find out how much weight he gives to the number of tackles a player made during their career when he decides who to vote for in the Hall of Fame voting?

We will agree to disagree on this one.

In other words, you can't provide the quote and you just want me and everyone else to take what you say at face value? Sorry. Can't do it.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Burress was playing with a bum ankle all year long and was held out of practice almost exclusively. That injury is devestating for a wide receiver. I'd say that pretty much evens things out unless you want to speculate whether or not Burress was faking it just to avoid practice.

While I agree that Hobbs is not horrible, but overrated IMO, Plaxico is listed @ 6'5 and Hobbs is listed @ 5'9. Burress would still have an advantage with a bum ankle over a shorter Hobbs with a shoulder injury.