Bill Polian vs. Scott Pioli - Which one is better?

[Rob0729]

Am I a homer? If I was, I don't think I would be here. Many Pat fans are pretty knowledgable about football, so I come here to read the boards and occassionaly comment about issues related to both teams. Sometimes on sites like this, I pick up some interesting links. I am here because I am curious if Pat fans think that their FO will truly go after one of those high priced premium FA like Clements, Thomas, Briggs, or even a WR like Bennet.
There seems to be some discontent in your ranks about how the Branch matter was handled, and how that might have cost you a realistic shot at the SB. It seemed you had the cap $ to reel him in. How much cap $ are Pat fans willing to spend to keep Samuel and Graham?

When you talk about the Pats needing to rebuild and the Colts only needing to retain their talent, you are being a homer. I don't care if you want to come to our board or not. The Pats and Colts are not that far apart in terms of talent hence why they had the same record and the AFCC came down to the last minute.

I had no problem with the Branch situation other than them letting him seek a new deal that blew up in their face. I think long term, we are potentially better off letting him go. I don't know if Branch would have changed the outcome of the AFCC. It might have, but I think the WRs were not the top reason the Pats lost that game.

Personally, I think the Pats will be active in free agency this year. I think the only top free agent that the Pats will consider to go after is Thomas. I think Graham will get a deal and I think Samuel will get a deal or be franchised (and potentially traded).

 

[PATSNUTme]

On a Colt board, we don't treat visitors with this kind of disrespect. I guess it really bothers you to see anyone but the Pats win. Poor baby.

OK troll boy I'll answer your question. RyantheColt has been here a long time. He's been here when the Colts choked and now he's here when they have won the big one.

You on the other hand, wait until Grossman hands you one, then you register on a Patriots forum to gloat= TROLL!

That's the difference.

 

[Jimke]

I have been a die hard Pats fan since 1959. Even I have to admit

that, except for quarterback, the Colts are far superior with regard

to offensive talent than the Patriots. I thought the Pats were

much better on defense until we gave up 32 points in one half.

 

[Patriot Missile]

They're both pretty darn good. Ofcourse Pioli get's the big nod in the Class department.

They both draft well,they bring in free agents that suite their team's needs and compatibility. I would definitaley give the edge to the cap management to Pioli due to the fact that Kraft will never give him the luxury of paying out extrodinary signing bonuses to level out the cap numbers.

All in all I would give the edge to Pioli. And if I thought they were dead even I would still have to Pioli because I'm a homer and did I mention the class thing?

 

[Hawg 73]

I see Hawg. You want to turn this into a troll board all by yourself. Prior to your post, people were discussing this issue in an intelligent manner. But I suppose there is lingering bitterness by some of the adolescent Patriot fans that the Colts turned out to be the better team this year. The Colts are hoping that they don't fall flat on their face like the Pats did after they won their 1st Superbowl - you didn't even make the playoffs the next season. BTW, you should be careful about caling Polian names - it's Belichick thats in the headlines recently for being classless ( LT) , being a very sore loser after the AFCC game, being sued for cheating with a married woman, and accused of forcing an injured player to play anyway. Polian is an angel in comparison.

No Polian is a piece of crap. Belichick as a person isn't much better. There are you happy now? And next year we can all examine the Colts collapse and predictable fall from grace. Have fun with your one and done!

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Pioli (or Belioli actually) leads 3 to 1 and Polian won't pass that benchmark performance until he wins 4 in 6 and I don't think he will. There are a lot of no name players on the Colts D who will now want to turn those rings into $$$. Even Rhodes said tonight that while he doesn't begrudge Peyton his MVP he coulda used that cadillac. I also think Dungy will probably come back for a defense of title season, and then bow out in 2008 when IMHO some of the longstanding cap **** hits the fan.

I wonder what Pat fans will do if or when Belichick hangs it up in NE for greener pastures in NY or some other franchise willing to pay him the really big $$$ after this final 2007 season under contract. He really is growing weary of the hostile Boston media ( Globe and Herald). If all Pat fans drinking the Belichick Kool-aide are correct about his 'genius ' status, he may be the first 10M/yr GM in the NFL. Kraft certainly will not pay him that much or give him that much power ( does Belichick really need a Pioli at this point in his career?) , but many other franchises in need of a savior ( Raiders, Lions, or Bills to mention a few) may hand him the keys to the castle to lead them to the enchanted land. Once Davis or Wilson pass on, those franchises will welcome Belichick with open arms. As we have seen , front office and coaching staffs are raided even more than rosters.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

OK troll boy I'll answer your question. RyantheColt has been here a long time. He's been here when the Colts choked and now he's here when they have won the big one.

You on the other hand, wait until Grossman hands you one, then you register on a Patriots forum to gloat= TROLL!

That's the difference.

Have you forgotten you are a moderator? Moderators are not supposed to be making accusations or starting trouble? In my experience, those who throw the TROLL word around or boldly state that the Colts were 'handed' a SuperBowl are trying to cause a confrontation. I don't recall anywhere I have been gloating - unless it is in response to a poster challenging me that the Colts suck. I belong to several boards, and have belonged here for over a year. I had to reregister because you folks changed the passwords and messed up my other account. It was easier to reregister than to wait ( several times) for a new password.

 

[Miguel]

Don't try to sell that line of thinking to Miguel though...

The line of thinking is worth to me as much as the line of thinking that the Colts would never win the Super Bowl because of Manning's contract - ZILCH.

I ask once again -
What did the cap have to be in 2006 in order for the Colts to have been in cap hell??

 

[Trenchwarfare]

No Polian is a piece of crap. Belichick as a person isn't much better. There are you happy now? And next year we can all examine the Colts collapse and predictable fall from grace. Have fun with your one and done!

One and done is a challenge all championship teams have in the age of parity. Your last championship was in 2004, and now you have had a two year drought. The raiding of your coaching staff, FA departures, and your FO decision not to spend to retain your top WRs have all taken their toll. The Colts will have similar challenges this year, but I don't understand why you are gloating about the same problems all teams have. We should relish the competitive games we have on the field, and as always, may the best team win.

 

[PatsSteve1]

21 of 22 starters on this team were drafted by the Colts.

* You can't judge which "GM" is better by what happened in one year. Polian has been doing it a lot longer. He also was GM of the Bills that went, and lost, 4 SB's. But they still were good teams he built there. Pioli probably does it less on his own. I don't know if it's a fair comparison. And I hate the little jerk.

 

[Rob0729]

I wonder what Pat fans will do if or when Belichick hangs it up in NE for greener pastures in NY or some other franchise willing to pay him the really big $$$ after this final 2007 season under contract. He really is growing weary of the hostile Boston media ( Globe and Herald). If all Pat fans drinking the Belichick Kool-aide are correct about his 'genius ' status, he may be the first 10M/yr GM in the NFL. Kraft certainly will not pay him that much or give him that much power ( does Belichick really need a Pioli at this point in his career?) , but many other franchises in need of a savior ( Raiders, Lions, or Bills to mention a few) may hand him the keys to the castle to lead them to the enchanted land. Once Davis or Wilson pass on, those franchises will welcome Belichick with open arms. As we have seen , front office and coaching staffs are raided even more than rosters.

Well, if you are going to talk fantasy talk, of course Belichick will leave. No one is offering Belichick $10 million a year. It ain't going to happen. Also, Kraft has no problem giving Belichick a competitve offer to stay no matter who gives him an offer. It is Belichick's and Pioli's philosophy not to overpay players, not Kraft. If you look at the deals Kraft put together before Belichick and Pioli (Law, Milloy, Bledsoe, Todd Rucci, Max Lane), Kraft has no problem selling out money to retain talent. This who Kraft is cheap myth is bunk.

If Belichick hates the Boston media, he will hate the New York media even more. The Jets writers hate Belichick and most of the stuff about the alleged affair he had is coming out of New York, not Boston.

Teams like Buffalo can't afford to overpay for Belichick. Besides, both Wilson and Davis could hang around for years.

Also, conflicting rumors have Belichick's contract ending after 2007 or 2009. Who knows what his contract is. Who said Belichick even wants to move other than endless media speculations without any even rumors to support his desire to leave. It isn't like Tony Dungy who has gone on record stating that this is the age he would like to retire.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Oh really? So who on the Indianapolis Colts roster is willing to take a pay cut or back-load their contracts so Polian can franchise Dwight Freeney?

MAnning converted his 2007 10M roster bonus into a signing bonus prorated over 5 years. The 8M savings in 2007 pays for Freeny's franchise tag.

 

[Rob0729]

MAnning converted his 2007 10M roster bonus into a signing bonus prorated over 5 years. The 8M savings in 2007 pays for Freeny's franchise tag.

This is why I think the Colts are in trouble in a couple of years, but not as much right now. They keep on pushing money back and adding big contracts.

They freed up enough room to keep Freeney, but unless he gets a big contract the Colts are pretty much done for free agency and risk losing both their guards, June, Harper, and Morris. If they give Freeney the deal he wants, he will be the highest paid defensive player in the league to go along with three of the highest paid offensive players in the league that the Colts already have and the highest paid special teamer. You can only pay so many players near the top at their position before the cap eventually strangles what your team can do. It has hurt the Colts this year, but not enough to stop them from remaining competitve for a Super Bowl. In future years, that will probably not be the case.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Well, if you are going to talk fantasy talk, of course Belichick will leave. No one is offering Belichick $10 million a year. It ain't going to happen. Also, Kraft has no problem giving Belichick a competitve offer to stay no matter who gives him an offer. It is Belichick's and Pioli's philosophy not to overpay players, not Kraft. If you look at the deals Kraft put together before Belichick and Pioli (Law, Milloy, Bledsoe, Todd Rucci, Max Lane), Kraft has no problem selling out money to retain talent. This who Kraft is cheap myth is bunk.

If Belichick hates the Boston media, he will hate the New York media even more. The Jets writers hate Belichick and most of the stuff about the alleged affair he had is coming out of New York, not Boston.

Teams like Buffalo can't afford to overpay for Belichick. Besides, both Wilson and Davis could hang around for years.

Also, conflicting rumors have Belichick's contract ending after 2007 or 2009. Who knows what his contract is. Who said Belichick even wants to move other than endless media speculations without any even rumors to support his desire to leave. It isn't like Tony Dungy who has gone on record stating that this is the age he would like to retire.

I don't know if you would agree that Belichick is one of the most powerful mover and shakers in the NFL. He is the only coach with a 3 out of 4 resume. He was never made GM by Kraft, though that's what he expected when he came over from NY. Sure, it's all speculation what Belichick might do, but you have to feel he can write his own ticket. I don't know what the rules are for FO personnel, but I suppose there is nothing keeping Belichick's agent from researching opportunities available. I don't think Belichick will leave the Patriots unless he has an opportunity that Kraft just cannot match. If Belichick no longer wants to share the glory with Pioli, and wants total control of operations, Kraft won't push Pioli out to accomodate Belichicks demands. Pioli himself just passed on the opportunity for a Giants position to stay with Kraft, so that is what fueled speculation that Kraft is prepared to lose one of them because he cannot afford both of them. They are each in high demand.

I didn't mean Belichick hates the Boston media. He finds them annoying. Whether it be Ted Johnson issues, his legal problems, or just his sourpuss nature, the media is dogging him on a few nagging stories. That plus the pressure to deliver a SuperBowl title- or-bust every year can be aggravating.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know if you would agree that Belichick is one of the most powerful mover and shakers in the NFL. He is the only active coach with a 3 out of 4 resume. He was never made GM by Kraft, though that's what he expected when he came over from NY. Sure, it's all speculation what Belichick might do, but you have to feel he can write his own ticket. I don't know what the rules are for FO personnel, but I suppose there is nothing keeping Belichick's agent from researching opportunities available. I don't think Belichick will leave the Patriots unless he has an opportunity that Kraft just cannot match. If Belichick no longer wants to share the glory with Pioli, and wants total control of operations, Kraft won't push Pioli out to accomodate Belichicks demands. Pioli himself just passed on the opportunity for a Giants position to stay with Kraft, so that is what fueled speculation that Kraft is prepared to lose one of them because he cannot afford both of them. They are each in high demand.

Belichick is the GM of the Pats. He doesn't have the official title, but he has the actual responsibilities. He has final say on all decisions relating to the Patriots. Pioli is the Vice President of Player Personnel and still answers to Belichick. I don't think just getting a GM title, but no more responsibilities.

Also, Belichick is the chief decision maker on the Patriots and by league policy, the team does not have to let him leave for another team even if he is made GM.

Besides, Dungy is more likely to leave for a combined GM/Head Coach role. Unlike Belichick, Dungy doesn't have total control of personnel decisions and may be wanting that power.

As for sharing the glory with Pioli, I think your arguement doesn't hold much weight. If anything, Pioli would be the one tired of sharing the glory because Belichick gets the lionshare of it. Belichick obviously loves the fact that he has a personnel guy who understands what he is looking for in a player and does an excellent jobbringing him the right players to choose from. If Belichick ever did go to another team, the first thing he would try to do is bring Pioli with him. Belichick knows that Pioli is an important part to his success and will always want him or someone just like him.

I really don't think you know how the Patriots' organization works. Belichick is the defacto GM, but he and Pioli run the team like a partnership and they like it that way and don't look to change it. Pioli wouldn't be so adament about staying with the Pats if Belichick was planning to leave.

 

[bradmahn]

You are mistaken (Trenchwarfare, not Rob who is basically saying the same things I posted, but beat me to the punch). Pioli is here BECAUSE OF BELICHICK, not because of Kraft. When Bill Belichick was made HC of the Pats, he turned down an offer to be the coach of the Jets because Parcells would be the GM, and BB wouldn't have the freedom to do as he wishes. Kraft gave him that, and BB brought in Pioli, who he had groomed since Cleveland to follow the Belichick system, more than likely the only system he knows. It is my opinion that Belichick has the final say in all personnel matters, and Pioli is there as a sort of springboard for evaluations and manager of the cap. That's also why I think that a childish discussion of Pioli or Polian (My Dad Can Beat Up Your Dad!) is downright wrong unless you also mention Belichick (which some here have done).

On a side note, I don't see Belichick leaving to coach another team unless he gets tired of the same ol', same ol' in New England (the franchise, not the area, where he went to school and has a home on Nantucket). He has all the glory, one of the greats at quarterback, a chance to solidify his legacy as the best coach of all time, and power. The owner/franchise is also one of the wealthiest in the NFL and has all the tools (money, for folks who can't read into that) to facilitate any contract that Belichick wants.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

This is why I think the Colts are in trouble in a couple of years, but not as much right now. They keep on pushing money back and adding big contracts.

They freed up enough room to keep Freeney, but unless he gets a big contract the Colts are pretty much done for free agency and risk losing both their guards, June, Harper, and Morris. If they give Freeney the deal he wants, he will be the highest paid defensive player in the league to go along with three of the highest paid offensive players in the league that the Colts already have and the highest paid special teamer. You can only pay so many players near the top at their position before the cap eventually strangles what your team can do. It has hurt the Colts this year, but not enough to stop them from remaining competitve for a Super Bowl. In future years, that will probably not be the case.

I hope Polian's strategy with Freeny is the same as Belichick might be considering for Samuel: tag and trade. TAg em, try and sign them to something reasonable, and if not, trade them for something rather than getting nothing. I don't think the Colts can afford to franchise Freeny without upsetting their options to keep other players. Most pundits consider Harper and Rhodes gone; June and Morris to stay. And most Colt fans are willing to live with 2 years of cap hell and backslide, for the 10 years of excellence from Manning. He is a once in a franchise opportunity. Eventually we will pay the piper when he retires, but until then, we will continually restructure. Manning makes so much in endorsements that I'm certain he would even reduce his salary if the NFLPA and league office would let him; they won't allow that precedent.

 

[Nick25]

Polian..has built 3 different super bowl teams, one franchise that went to 4 straight super bowls (wont be duplicated in our lifetimes, and likely our childrens lifetimes, and so on, probably never) built up an expansion team into super bowl contention faster than anyone in history, and got the colts their ring this year. No comparison really, Polian is hands down the best GM in the league.

 

[solman]

MAnning converted his 2007 10M roster bonus into a signing bonus prorated over 5 years. The 8M savings in 2007 pays for Freeny's franchise tag.

I guess they aren't going to sign any draft picks or free agents then?

The Colts can try to keep their team together for another year or two by restructuring numerous contracts, but they will have little or no opportunity to improve their team and/or plug holes. If they don't voluntarily make 2007 or 2008 a rebuilding year, they'll have to completely disassemble the team in 2009.

However, I do agree that they have to Franchise Freeny.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Belichick is the GM of the Pats. He doesn't have the official title, but he has the actual responsibilities. He has final say on all decisions relating to the Patriots. Pioli is the Vice President of Player Personnel and still answers to Belichick. I don't think just getting a GM title, but no more responsibilities.

Also, Belichick is the chief decision maker on the Patriots and by league policy, the team does not have to let him leave for another team even if he is made GM.

Besides, Dungy is more likely to leave for a combined GM/Head Coach role. Unlike Belichick, Dungy doesn't have total control of personnel decisions and may be wanting that power.

As for sharing the glory with Pioli, I think your arguement doesn't hold much weight. If anything, Pioli would be the one tired of sharing the glory because Belichick gets the lionshare of it. Belichick obviously loves the fact that he has a personnel guy who understands what he is looking for in a player and does an excellent jobbringing him the right players to choose from. If Belichick ever did go to another team, the first thing he would try to do is bring Pioli with him. Belichick knows that Pioli is an important part to his success and will always want him or someone just like him.

I really don't think you know how the Patriots' organization works. Belichick is the defacto GM, but he and Pioli run the team like a partnership and they like it that way and don't look to change it. Pioli wouldn't be so adament about staying with the Pats if Belichick was planning to leave.

I do not claim to be an expert on the PAtriots organization. However, I do not think many people are. You can guess how things operate, but the principles - Belichick, Pioli, and President Kraft - are pretty secretive about details. There surely are no public squabbles a la San Diego. The point is that Pat fans should not be shocked if Belichick does move on eventually- maybe because of same ol', same ol' malaise, or maybe for the challenge to rebuild a once proud franchise like the Raiders or Lions. Where can he go from here with the Patriots? Every year without a ring is considered a failure of sorts. Someone like Belichick might consider the legacy of Polian who has been part of the phoenix of three different franchises. New England is Belichick's truly successful stop in his career...maybe he would like to add another for his legacy. Anyway, my only point is that Belichick is a very powerful force in the NFL, and most geniuses become bored if they don't find a brand new challenge.

As far Pioli staying because he thinks Belichick is not leaving? If Belichick does leave, Pioli - by staying - would probably become the GM for any arriving coach.