Bill Polian vs. Scott Pioli - Which one is better?

[JoeSixPat]

Polian completely lucked out the way the salary cap skyrocketed this year - and even now, people are saying they are in "cap hell" next year.

I don't really see that happening and think they will adjust, renogitiate and backload contracts to keep much of the team together next year.

But if not for the cap explosion this year I question whether they have the personnel to make this year's SB happen.

That's luck - not skill - no one, including Polian could have predicted that cap amount this season given those negotiations.

So Polian deserves some credit but as a GM and cap manager, he's got to thank Lady Luck for this SB win

 

[Trenchwarfare]

First off let me say this - If there is NO WAY you can put your hatred and disgust away about Bill Polian for a minute then please do not answer this question...I want pure UNBIASED opinions based on as if you had NO favorite team...O.K. So here goes...


Who is better at this time in your opinion Bill Polian or Scott Pioli who are by far the top two Executives/GMs in the NFL.

Polian I think continues to bring in talent whether it being from the draft or free agency...Guys like Booger McFarland who they practically stole from Tampa Bay is the latest great pickup the team found - The D-Line was a mess and adding Booger helped quite a bit and he immediately fit in with their schemes and I think helped improve that 32nd run D,At the time it looked like a desperation move but now looks like a smart one.

We laughed at the Colts when we grabbed Maroney before the Colts could and thought Addai was going to be a bust...Looks like he may be the best RB of the rookie class including Bush but we will leave that to debate after next season ends - By the sophomore season I think the true best RB of the 2006 bunch will emerge,Addai was ripped off of not getting the SB MVP vote or some concideration,so for a rookie in the SB that was impressive as he has been his whole rookie campaign.

When you consider that they were pummeled by the Media when they passed on Ryan Leaf and Ricky Williams (Edgerrin was great when he was there) it now looks like genius moves...and that unfortunately is to the credit of Polian.

With Pioli teaming with Belichick its a lethal combination,finding guys like Brady,Seymour,Warren,Wilfork and signing castoffs and disgruntled players like Corey Dillion and guys that were considered to be done like Rodney Harrison,Ted Washington and Junior Seau (albeit a short patriots career) was pure genius - Getting guys like Koppen and Kaczur in the draft showed other teams that its tough to be good when it comes to the draft and picking guys that will advance to the pro league and it takes as much talent in not only scouting and selecting low round guys that will produce but just as much as it is to have that player actually do it continuously like the Patriots and Colts do.

The only other organization GM and Front Office coming even remotely close to these 2 teams is San Diego who is putting together a team that will probably win 11 games or more for at least the next 3-5 years.


So be unbiased and give TRUE facts..Who is better..Pioli or Polian? - or even San Diegos FO if you wish,can't think of any others who are consistent,if you think of another team go ahead and explain.

Sometimes GM effectiveness can be measured not only in who you draft/sign but also who you don't let get away. Beloli have lost a few key players - providing the image of being ' too cheap' to pay the going rate for skilled players. Whatever the truth, there does seem to be an arrogance/stubborness in the Patriot ' my way or the hiway' approach to ***ency. What has worked in the past does not necessarily work in the present or future. The expanding cap has made ***ency a sellers market. The Colts have been willing to pay to keep their top performormers ( with the exception of losing Thorton last offseason). Polian and Dungy have taken a different approach than Beloli, building a smaller, faster defense and a powerful running game to complement their strong passing game. Polian decided to sign Wayne and let Edge go - replacing him with Addai. It shows very good judgment and evaluation. Of course, both teams have made good personnel moves, so it is subjective as to who one thinks is best. Polian has been criticized for his efforts to clarify the NFL rulebook in order to protect his receivers, but it is just further evidence of good GM owrk to get maximum advantage for your team. Actually all teams benefit from less interference by DBs on their speed receivers. Though some of the Patriots fans whine about this, in the SuperBowl it was a non factor. When DBs have the skill and scheme to cover receivers properly, it will often be a non factor.

 

[JoePats]

I definately agree,He played like that for the last 1/4 of the season and got progressively worse..Whether he hit the rookie wall sooner than expected or he was playing injured we won't know till training camp comes about,But if I were the Pats I would be looking for a RB or FB late in the draft or in free agency,Otherwise we are risking a chance that the dancing and falling flat soon after taking a hit will continue,If Corey retires or is cut,its a must to look for extra help,at least if Corey stays we can slowly get Lawrence to mature and be patient waiting for a hole and yet more assertive in his second season,If he is thrust into a full time staring position hes gonna need a super camp just like his protege Chad Jackson.

Also it's a lot easier running against a nickel or dime defense every play.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Polian completely lucked out the way the salary cap skyrocketed this year - and even now, people are saying they are in "cap hell" next year.

I don't really see that happening and think they will adjust, renogitiate and backload contracts to keep much of the team together next year.

But if not for the cap explosion this year I question whether they have the personnel to make this year's SB happen.

That's luck - not skill - no one, including Polian could have predicted that cap amount this season given those negotiations.

So Polian deserves some credit but as a GM and cap manager, he's got to thank Lady Luck for this SB win

Don't try to sell that line of thinking to Miguel though..

People forget that just days before what is widely viewed as a very bad CBA deal got hammered out, to avoid the anarchy of an uncapped league in which a Jim Irsay owned small market team even with a new taxpayer funded stadium in the pipeline can't compete, Polian was threatening to sue Irsay's 31 NFL partners. Even at the risk of opening pandora's box by allowing the judicial system to destroy the league because the Manning and Harrison deals he crafted were blowing up in his face and he was facing substantial player cuts even if the league had allowed him to jerryrig givebacks from Peyton and Marvin.

 

[skaIownsIyou]

wasnt polian the gm for the bills when they went on that 4 year superbowl ramapge...think he was there for 3 of the 4 years....and he's produced hall of famers outside of indianapolis

the long hall of rebuilding started with manning and edge james...and became a solid team for 7-8 years ....it took manning almost a decade to get to a superbowl...

when brady took over, the pats were already solid team, after losing many key players, like all other franchises did, to free agency this year (06) was the start of the pats rebuilding....and they were 4 poitns from a superbowl...

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Polian completely lucked out the way the salary cap skyrocketed this year - and even now, people are saying they are in "cap hell" next year.

I don't really see that happening and think they will adjust, renogitiate and backload contracts to keep much of the team together next year.

But if not for the cap explosion this year I question whether they have the personnel to make this year's SB happen.

That's luck - not skill - no one, including Polian could have predicted that cap amount this season given those negotiations.

So Polian deserves some credit but as a GM and cap manager, he's got to thank Lady Luck for this SB win

Luck has nothing to do with it. Peyton Manning is practically Jim Irsay's son. Peyton is an institution in Indianapolis. Peyton is ready willing and able to restructure his contract whenever the Colts need him to. Manning will make more in endorsements than he makes in salary. He is set for life. He could backload his contract ad infinitum. So Polian knows he has a lot of flexibility with the Colt cap that may not appear to be evident on paper. I wonder if Kraft can expect that same cooperation from Brady and Seymour after the Pats let so many of their close friends walk to pinch a few pennies when they were under the cap. I would say it will take more effort to get Pat players to cooperate with restructuring 'favors' that it will take Polian within the Colt family.

 

[wdkantro2]

About the Booger McFarland move....he wasn't the difference in their run stop. They picked him up and remained the worst run stop for two months or so. The difference came in the playoffs where they realized they had to start gambling to stop the run, and overloaded the box. A good pickup, but hardly the difference between a good and bad run stop.

I think Pioli is better for one reason: Cap management. We make the AFFCG, and have $30M in cap space with only two key free agents. The Colts win the super bowl but have $4M of cap space and 9 RFA/UFAs including 2 key starters on defense.

The other thing that angers me is everyone thinking Addai is by far the best rookie back. I think if Bush, Maroney, Norwood or Drew were in the Colts offense, and got the attempts and chances that Addai got, they would all be just as good, if not better. Take away his huge game against an Eagles team who didn't want to play that night, and he's hardly anything too special.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

wasnt polian the gm for the bills when they went on that 4 year superbowl ramapge...think he was there for 3 of the 4 years....and he's produced hall of famers outside of indianapolis

the long hall of rebuilding started with manning and edge james...and became a solid team for 7-8 years ....it took manning almost a decade to get to a superbowl...

when brady took over, the pats were already solid team, after losing many key players, like all other franchises did, to free agency this year (06) was the start of the pats rebuilding....and they were 4 poitns from a superbowl...

Polian not only rebuilt the Bills, but also the Panthers. It takes a lot of luck to get to the Superbowl. Injuries play a key role. The Colts had key injuries in '06as well, but persevered to overcome them. The Colts played a good part of the SB with backups on defense. At one point, their whole defensive front 4 was backups. The Colts are a deep, young team. Except for a few key FAs, they are built for the long haul as well. The cap hell they appear to have is only apparent - it is easily fixed. They don't need any new FA's. Their core team has shown how strong it is by blowing through the best of the NFL - they beat the top 3 scoring defenses in the playoffs ( Ravens, Chargers, and Bears). That is an NFL record. They just need to resign their top FAs and they will be fine. I believe the PAts could be losing two more key players ( Samuel and Graham), and also have to search free agency for key players in LB, DB, and WR positions. It appears your gamble in letting Branch leave and drafting Chad Jackson was a bust.LAst time I looked at the FA class, teh Pats are traditionally too cheap to pay market price for any of the top FAs. Unless you plan on filling all your needs with rookies in the draft, who really positioned his team better for 2007 : Polian or Beoli?

 

[Hawg 73]

Maybe you should see what happens with the Dolts next year before you continue with the Polian salad tossing. Good GM or not the man is still a piece of shlt.

 

[ATippett56]

Polian completely lucked out the way the salary cap skyrocketed this year - and even now, people are saying they are in "cap hell" next year.

I don't really see that happening and think they will adjust, renogitiate and backload contracts to keep much of the team together next year.

But if not for the cap explosion this year I question whether they have the personnel to make this year's SB happen.

That's luck - not skill - no one, including Polian could have predicted that cap amount this season given those negotiations.

So Polian deserves some credit but as a GM and cap manager, he's got to thank Lady Luck for this SB win

The Colts and Polian will pay the price in 2007 when the Indianapolis Colts will be unable to sign any of their free agents.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Maybe you should see what happens with the Dolts next year before you continue with the Polian salad tossing. Good GM or not the man is still a piece of shlt.

I see Hawg. You want to turn this into a troll board all by yourself. Prior to your post, people were discussing this issue in an intelligent manner. But I suppose there is lingering bitterness by some of the adolescent Patriot fans that the Colts turned out to be the better team this year. The Colts are hoping that they don't fall flat on their face like the Pats did after they won their 1st Superbowl - you didn't even make the playoffs the next season. BTW, you should be careful about caling Polian names - it's Belichick thats in the headlines recently for being classless ( LT) , being a very sore loser after the AFCC game, being sued for cheating with a married woman, and accused of forcing an injured player to play anyway. Polian is an angel in comparison.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

The Colts and Polian will pay the price in 2007 when the Indianapolis Colts will be unable to sign any of their free agents.

The Colts will surely be exploring the ' home town discount' principle. There isn't a better team in the NFL to play for than the Colts when you take into account the community, the coach, the Capitan ( Manning), the national exposure, opportunity for endorsements, and the chance for another ring.

 

[fgssand]

The Colts will surely be exploring the ' home town discount' principle. There isn't a better team in the NFL to play for than the Colts when you take into account the community, the coach, the Capitan ( Manning), the exposure, and the chance for another ring.

When they awaken up from your deserved superbowl high, they will find it highly unlikely that "hometown discounts" exist.


Take the team, community, captain, exposure and chance for ring x 2 and stick it because it doesn't matter. The players, and rightfully so, are professionals playing for money - not the love of the game. They will need to capitalize on every single $$$ opportunity that comes their way as they have their family and rest of their lives to be concerned with - wouldn't you do the same??

 

[Trenchwarfare]

When they awaken up from your deserved superbowl high, they will find it highly unlikely that "hometown discounts" exist.


Take the team, community, captain, exposure and chance for ring x 2 and stick it because it doesn't matter. The players, and rightfully so, are professionals playing for money - not the love of the game. They will need to capitalize on every single $$$ opportunity that comes their way as they have their family and rest of their lives to be concerned with - wouldn't you do the same??

The Colts environment might be an exception to the rule. I don't know. There is a chance for endorsements for every player on a SB winning team. Most of the Colt FA's are on defense. As you saw during the year, their individual talent isn't off the charts - they came together as a team. Would you as an overachieving player prefer to get a big payday only to struggle on 2nd tier teams the rest of your career, or accept a little less to play as part of a successful unit , in a supportive community, with a chance at endorsements, and with an opportunity to get back to the Dance next year? It really is a family decision for most players, but the 2nd contract doesn't make all players rich anyway. It's only the signing bonus that is the plus...the rest of the contract isn't guaranteed. The Colts will see how to work things out, but the numbers I have seen makes it manageable to resign the players they want to keep.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

wasnt polian the gm for the bills when they went on that 4 year superbowl ramapge...think he was there for 3 of the 4 years....and he's produced hall of famers outside of indianapolis

the long hall of rebuilding started with manning and edge james...and became a solid team for 7-8 years ....it took manning almost a decade to get to a superbowl...

when brady took over, the pats were already solid team, after losing many key players, like all other franchises did, to free agency this year (06) was the start of the pats rebuilding....and they were 4 poitns from a superbowl...

Which would explain BB's famous quote to a pal as they exited the field - "Can you believe we won with this team?" Please....

 

[ATippett56]

The Colts will surely be exploring the ' home town discount' principle. There isn't a better team in the NFL to play for than the Colts when you take into account the community, the coach, the Capitan ( Manning), the national exposure, opportunity for endorsements, and the chance for another ring.

It's quite evident in this day and age that NFL players change scenery for the money. As for endorsements, do the cows watch advertisements on television in the state of Indiana?

 

[Trenchwarfare]

Which would explain BB's famous quote to a pal as they exited the field - "Can you believe we won with this team?" Please....

The Pats secondary has sucked since Law left in 2004. Even in 2004, he was injured all year and it still sucked. They were scorched in the SB by Delhomme. They could only defend by praying the officials wouldn't call them for PI, and when they did, Pat fans screamed foul. The only thing that saved the Pats was a good rush up front. They will still be rebuilding in 2007, as they will have to rebuild their DB amd LB units. HArrison, Samuel, Seau, and Teddy B. will be gone or playing in a diminished capacity. Meanwhile, they have no first line WRs, and Brady's shoulder is injured. Belichick will be saying that AGAIN this year.

 

[Trenchwarfare]

It's quite evident in this day and age that NFL players change scenery for the money. As for endorsements, do the cows watch advertisements on television in the state of Indiana?

Except for Boston, what is the great state of Massachusetts but one big pasture patty? Indianapolis also feeds the Chicago market - in fact, the whole midwest. Believe it or not, that is quite a bit larger than the rural NE area. Apparently you have never been to Race Weekend to see all the corporate sponsors drawn to the Indy area. And excuse me....Foxboro is not exactly a booming metropolis itself. I find it odd how so many Pat fans live in the boondocks themselves, but make fun of Indy - a metropolis of almost a million, and the greater metro area almost 3 mil. But it's great the rest of the US doesn't like Indy - it keeps all the other people out , just the way we like it. You can't imagine the accomplishment of having the World Champion Colts all to ourselves in this community.

 

[unoriginal]

Your run defense, our pass defense... both quite the squeaky wheel, however our defense has performed much better in scoring defense this year. We're getting like five safeties back off IR. Who are you getting back? Monte Reagor?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Luck has nothing to do with it. Peyton Manning is practically Jim Irsay's son. Peyton is an institution in Indianapolis. Peyton is ready willing and able to restructure his contract whenever the Colts need him to. Manning will make more in endorsements than he makes in salary. He is set for life. He could backload his contract ad infinitum. So Polian knows he has a lot of flexibility with the Colt cap that may not appear to be evident on paper. I wonder if Kraft can expect that same cooperation from Brady and Seymour after the Pats let so many of their close friends walk to pinch a few pennies when they were under the cap. I would say it will take more effort to get Pat players to cooperate with restructuring 'favors' that it will take Polian within the Colt family.

That explains why Peyton had to be franchised prior to Jim selling off his memorabelia collection to hand Peyton a $34.5M signing bonus in 2004, not to mention those $9-10M roster bonuses in 2006 and 2007. While Brady settled for a cap friendly deal that split his $26.5M into signing and option bonus and has just single digit roster bonuses in 2008-09 and ends in a single digit cap hit in 2010 (as opposed to Mannings deal which will have to be restructured and extended complete with bonuses or it ends with a $20M+ cap hit in 2010). Tom Condon will see to it that while Manning makes a bundle in endorsements he also continues to make a bundle from Jim Irsay.

And after watching the way Polian reacted to injured players this season, refusing to pay them even though it wouldn't benefit him cap wise, I think Indy players will understand it's every man for himself. In a town where all the attention and anscillary income will continue to revolve around the QB.

Adam isn't playing for you because he loves living on the fringes of tornado alley and spending time with livestock and NSACAR afficianados (he's was Nebraska raised but the wife is a former dolphin cheerleader and model he acquired when he long ago chose to live in So Florida by and large), he's yours for the money and use of a career extending dome.

There is a certain naivete about Colts fans from Indiana (who were nearly dumbstruck in the first quarter last night as the all apparently huddled around their TV sets rather than venture to Miami) that is about to be hammered.