BB Clock Management

[venecol]

I think it's be

Can someone explain why it is better to take the timeouts before the two minute warning vs after? Isn't it esestially the same thing?

If you take it before, you get to use the 2 minute warning as an extra TO. Obviously, the D has to perform which thankfully they did despite all the badgering from the game day thread. Butler was clutch, again.

 

[PP2]

Unbelievable what happened after that first down with 2:30 I think it was. Used the timeouts (smartly) and before the two minute warning and then managed from there. Sure, some luck was in there, namely the Giants throwing first and second down (and the Beckham no catch coming with 2:01 as opposed to 2) but you can't overlook the fact that he is undoubtedly the best clock manager in the NFL with no one close to him.

Two other plays on that drive that demonstrated how well we master clock management, the quick out route to Lafell who went OOB, and the fake spike and near-lateral screen to Lafell again, but this was a simple read/react, if Lafell was open for the screen, hit him, but if not, just throw the ball away- both scenarios kill the clock. Just another instance of forward thinking because a spike would have resulted in zero progress no matter what, but that sideline read gave them the option to grab a few more yards if it was there for the taking. It wasn't, but they lost just about the same amount of time as they would have had with a fake spike.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Before the final kick i was begging for a scuff kick or onsider to burn that ONE second, and what does he do? one of only 2-3 coaches that would be that smart to burn the clock. Giants played that out really well (probably got away with 2or 3 intentional fumble laterals), but BB decision to onside screwed their strategy of laterals and supporting blocking scheme.

I like BB as much as anyone, but don't be silly. Virtually every team would have done exactly the same thing there. It's not like you don't see squib kicks at the end of halfs/games.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I was thinking what a smart play kneeling just inside goal line as normally you see idiots run it out to around the 20 and burn precious seconds.

And/or have a block-in-the-back penalty wipe out the return and put you even further back, anyways.

 

[SVN]

Rich Eisen ‏@richeisen 2h2 hours ago
So refreshing to see a coach know what he's doing with timeouts and clock management. Boggles how many can't handle the endeavor.

 

[Kjmass1]

I like BB as much as anyone, but don't be silly. Virtually every team would have done exactly the same thing there. It's not like you don't see squib kicks at the end of halfs/games.

Squib kick isn't the same as an onsides kick which BB opted to do. Caught them off guard.

 

[aluminum seats]

I think sometimes with say a few seconds over two minutes left, it makes more sense to take the timeout after the two-minute warning because taking it before lets the other team pass with no adverse ramifications.

 

[MagicMarker]

I don't think Belichick would have taken a timeout too close to the two minute warning - like around 2:05 or less. That gives the other team the opportunity to throw it.

 

[meatface]

Without a doubt, every time I watch another NFL Game am amazed with how poorly they manage the clock.

We take this for granted, and BB has raised it to an art form.. another thing we take for granted.

I thought TC would be smarter after his screw ups earlier in the season but he and Eli face the pats all the time they needed.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I think sometimes with say a few seconds over two minutes left, it makes more sense to take the timeout after the two-minute warning because taking it before lets the other team pass with no adverse ramifications.

I think we're talking about overall usage of timeouts before/after. You do want to leverage that extra timeout with the 2-minute warning, although in this case, we were a bit fortunate that the pass break-up occurred at 2:01. But generally, saving time before is way better than after.

There are exceptions, just like it's generally not good to give up safeties but there are times it is better...BB knows!

<rant>

Also, speaking of clock management, everyone is now praising Dola for kneeling in the end zone to get the ball at the 20 instead of running it out. Everyone knew that was the right thing except for Jim Nantz, who questioned why. Maybe Nantz should cover more golf instead of football.

And maybe media people should be held accountable for their mistakes. They love to spend hundreds of hours ripping apart decisions by players, coaches, general managers, but they're the biggest ****ing hypocrites in the world.

</rant>

 

[Oswlek]

It is more a matter of taking them when the other team has Control of the ball & clock and can run Off 30 secs with a run play. Without Timeouts when you are on O, you can stop clock with incompletes, run out of bounds or spike. So you try and force them to run as many of their plays before 2:00 as possible

But also it forces the other Team to make constrained play call decision, call a 1yd run to burn clock when a 5yd 1st down pass wins the game.

Plus the other Team can screw up and leave you more time (like Giants), if you just let them run the clock that Time is gone forever

This, plus in many instances calling the TO before the two minute warning actually saves you time. For instance, if the other team gets a first down at 2:40 and you have three TOs, the sequence will go something like this:

TO
First down run 2:32
TO
Second down run 2:24
TO
Third down run 2:18.......
Two minute warning.

So, the other team is kicking at 2:00. If you chose a different order, every snap taken after the two minute warning sees those 4-8 seconds tick below 2:00.

 

[Fencer]

When taken before the 2 min warning you get the benefit of controlling how much time runs off the clock between downs and also pressuring the opponents into thinking a few steps ahead ie clock management - this is exactly what caused the odd Giants playcalling - esp the 3rd down roll out and flop.

Basically the quicker you call the timouts the quicker you force your opponents hand.

Right. You create a downside for them in stopping the clock. Plus presumably you're confident you're taking it on a play when the "Time to talk it over" benefit doesn't help them much.

 

[Fencer]

This, plus in many instances calling the TO before the two minute warning actually saves you time. For instance, if the other team gets a first down at 2:40 and you have three TOs, the sequence will go something like this:

TO
First down run 2:32
TO
Second down run 2:24
TO
Third down run 2:18.......
Two minute warning.

So, the other team is kicking at 2:00. If you chose a different order, every snap taken after the two minute warning sees those 4-8 seconds tick below 2:00.

You're right, although I'd have liked to see you use a figure like 2:30 or 2:35 for more clarity. (By way of contrast, if it's 2:42 your calculations don't work, as not using the TOs before the warning saves you a TO, at the cost of 14 seconds.)

 

[Oswlek]

You're right, although I'd have liked to see you use a figure like 2:30 or 2:35 for more clarity. (By way of contrast, if it's 2:42 your calculations don't work, as not using the TOs before the warning saves you a TO, at the cost of 14 seconds.)

Anywhere from 2:30-2:42 works the same way (I'm not seeing how it doesn't work at the latter, can you elaborate?) where it gets to be meaningless is if teams get a snap off just around 2:01 because the post 2:00 time is going to tick off anyway. In that instance, it saves you only the difference between 2:00 and whatever time is on the clock.

 

[Fencer]

Anywhere from 2:30-2:42 works the same way (I'm not seeing how it doesn't work at the latter, can you elaborate?) where it gets to be meaningless is if teams get a snap off just around 2:01 because the post 2:00 time is going to tick off anyway. In that instance, it saves you only the difference between 2:00 and whatever time is on the clock.

The difference between 2:35 and 2:42 is -- if the team on offense just lets the play clock run down until the 2-minute mark, can they walk off the field without running a play?

Suppose they can. Then your analysis is correct, to wit:

• If the defensive team uses all the TOs promptly -- i.e., before each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd down -- then hopefully the offensive team will have to punt with 2:00 on the clock, after the 2-minute warning.
  
• But if the defensive delays using the TOs, then time will be run off the clock beyond 2 minutes.

Suppose, however, the clock starts at 2:42, and no TO is called. Then the 2-minute warning causes an official TO before 2nd down. If the defensive team stops the clock after 2nd and 3rd downs, they'll have 1 more TO in hand than they would have had had they followed your plan.

 

[chasa]

Can someone explain why it is better to take the timeouts before the two minute warning vs after? Isn't it esestially the same thing?

Say there is 2:40 left to go in the game, and the giants have the ball, the pats have three time outs.

If the patriots take no time outs before the 2 minute warning, the giants can run a single play and burn 40 seconds. two minute warning, then second play 1:50 left, third play 1:40 left then if the D did their job giants kick the FG/Punt with about a minute and 1:30 left

If the patriots take their time outs before the two minute warning, it essentially gives them a bonus time out.

So after the first play you take a time out with 2:30 remaining. teh second play with 2:15 remaining. after the third play if no first down the 2 minute warning happens, if the D did its job the giants will punt/fg with just under 2 minutes to go, and leaving the pats with a TO.

 

[SVN]

boomer with awesome praise for BB this morning
Boomer Esiason: End Of Pats-Giants A 'Mental Clinic' By Bill Belichick

 

[QuantumMechanic]

boomer with awesome praise for BB this morning
Boomer Esiason: End Of Pats-Giants A 'Mental Clinic' By Bill Belichick

Boomer is such a two-faced *****. Screw him.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Seriously, @IcyPatriot ? You somehow missed Boomer trashing NE on the NY stations while being all suck-uppy on the Boston stations? The man is a two-faced azzhole.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think it's be


If you take it before, you get to use the 2 minute warning as an extra TO. Obviously, the D has to perform which thankfully they did despite all the badgering from the game day thread. Butler was clutch, again.

Yeah - basically (if the Giants had called running plays) they could have let the clock run down to 2 minutes, have the TV time out, and then potentially run another play and let more time off the clock. It depends on the situation and play calling but effectively between Belihick's wise time management and Coughlin's poor time management (and Coughlin is a better coach than that too) the Patriots had about an extra minute

That extra minute in fact did make the difference in the game