Anyone Else Think Connor Barwin Is Overrated?

[maverick4]

Jays52 posted an analogy to Antonio Gates at TE in another thread a few days ago. Barwin just seems to have that Gates-like athleticism and ability to pick up a position effortlessly. .

I would argue that tight end is a more natural fit for a basketball background (catching, posting up, jump balls, etc) than it is at linebacker. I would also argue that the degree of difficulty is lower to become a NFL receiving tight end than it is to play NFL linebacker, especially Patriot-style linebacker.

At this point Barwin is definitely motivated and has all the right intangibles, but I see him being a situational pass rusher and not a 3-down player. I don't think his basketball background has prepared him for the constant physical hits you have to take in order to excel in the running game.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Well, im high on Barwin right now at #34 but if all these intangibles are so good, no doubt the teams that work him out and speak with him will rate him equally highly and we should see him become a first rounder on most boards - he does seeming to be moving up into the Maybin, Matthews area of late 1st round on a lot of mocks

One question I dont know is his smarts. We all know how cerebal Mayo is and how that came across so clearly to BB and Pioli and made them both want him and start him last year. They value that as much as anything else with the complex defense we run. Be interesting just *how* smart and mature he is and what his natural football insticts are. I remember that story where Mayo said they drew X's and O's on boards and asked him to break it down, make suggestions etc and he blew them away ...suspect thats high on their wish list for day 1

 

[Liverpool_Patriot]

Barwin did not compare himself to Mike Vrabel, it was reporters and scouts who made that comparison.

 

[BelichickFan]

Charley Casserly does - well, not overrated but he said he thinks he'd be a reach in the second round; that's where he thinks he'll go, though, as pass rushers are so hard to find.

 

[Mark Morse]

I zeroed in on Barwin in the fall when he was rated as a third round pick and has since rose up the draft boards. I like his versatility and athleticism. However, I think he shouldn't be rated a 1st round pick. I agree with the basic assesment that the Patriots like players that have a proven history as a starter for multiple years in college. Barwin played two years as a TE and one as DE. As stated earlier, Barwin disappeared against better competition and didn't show well in the Senor Bowl.

I was hoping to get him at #47, but I don't think thats possible now. Based on the the NFL Draft Scout top 750, I am thinking the Patriots take a pass on Barwin in the 1st round.

 

[VJCPatriot]

A recent Connor Barwin interview. Good read. No I don't think he's overrated. The Jaguars personnel guy thinks he will be a star at the next level. But since they drafted two passrushers last year, I don't think they'll take him this year.

Collin Streetman: Describe your in-game demeanor using one of the following, focused and calm, unhinged and explosive, or downright nasty.

Connor Barwin: Haha, Downright nasty.

Man I like the football players who have a nasty streak in them.

Connor Barwin: Interview with Big CatCountry - Big Cat Country

 

[mayoclinic]

Nice interview. Obviously, you take what players say about themselves with a grain of salt, but some of his descriptions sound very Pats-like:

- Q: What intangibles can you bring to an NFL team that might not show up on tape?
- A: I think a lot of the intagables do show up. One major factor is I’m a consistent player. My work ethic is an intangible that won’t show up on tape. I have a motor that doesn’t stop. My football IQ is great as a result of playing both offense and defense. My ability to have experience on both sides of the ball allows me to know what the other players are thinking and planning.

- Q: Some players are workout warriors, some are film-junkies, and others spend their free time on the practice field. What’s you’re favorite aspect of game preparation?
- A: In the regular season, I’d much rather be in the film room trying to get a handle on any tendencies of my opponent. Anything that gives me an advantage on game-da

- Q: What aspect of your game do you feel is strongest?
- A: Consistency… I don’t ever stop, and my motor never quits.

- Q: How would you describe your personality and character?
- A: I would describe it as level headed and focused. I don’t get to high or down.

Of course, I fully understand that Clay Matthews or Larry English might give many of the same answers, but everything he says seems to match what has been written about him.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Barwin did not compare himself to Mike Vrabel, it was reporters and scouts who made that comparison.

Yup, that's one of the errors mav4 keeps repeating.

 

[jsull87]

i think the people who say take him at 23 are a little over the top but i wouldn't mind at all him with our 1st but preferably 2nd 2nd will he last that long i don't know but of all the mock drafts i have seen there seems to be so much talent that is between our 1st 3 picks that you cant really go wrong. but barwin at 23 i think is a little much for me specially when people are debating weather if andre smith or rey maualuga are there is we should take them. i mean if you are talking about ceilings i think that those 2 are a little better yet the same type of boom bust pick as barwin

 

[maverick4]

Of course, I fully understand that Clay Matthews or Larry English might give many of the same answers, but everything he says seems to match what has been written about him.

The fact he's well spoken does nothing to dispel the concerns raised in this thread. He looks like a good kid with good intangibles and a role in the NFL as a situational pass rusher. He also seems to have world class skills in marketing himself and positioning himself as best as possible before the draft.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Well here is my take on Barwin for what it is worth.

I while being sold on Barwin on the board had to do some homework. He does look good and has great explosion numbers to make an impact at the NFL level. So did Golston last year but that is another story which Rex Ryan may turn around which kinda worries me but that is a whole other story. Everything this kid has been asked to do he has done and done very well. Weather it is basket ball or football this kid has athletic ability out the ying yang if I may say.

Gates did not even play ball in college But playing defense is a whole different ballgame as Mav4 pointed out, there not everyone hates you but I am Canadian eh On offence you know where you are going and on defense you are reacting or using experience to make plays and stand out from the rest. Now Barwin has been able to do this but I think with only one year of defense would need some work before he would be a true asset, but so did Ware.

Barwin just does not have the experience playing defense at a high level as the other OLB prospects is the major knock on him right now IMO. This is why people are going to think he is over-rated by his stats alone. From the few clips I have seen and I throw the senior bowl out as he practiced on both sides of the ball (which is a lot even though it is a dummy down system's they run) on a kid getting ready for the draft. Every other prospect has been concentrating on their position for almost four years and this kid was listed as a TE to start senior bowl week and I never got to see him in one on ones Bottom line is I think he would have been served better practicing as a DE or OLB all week to showcase what he had. But it did give me a better look at English (who can set the edge but agree with the beautiful Patchick about him getting to horny for the QB at times).

What I liked most about Barwin was his interview at the SeniorBowl where he said how excited he was to play OLB in the NFL. He looked very confident and almost relieved to finally put his time and work into just one position and become the best. That is what I took out of the interview I saw back in January. Since then from what I have seen he has worked his way to becoming that impact OLB that a team would covet.

Watching his play at D-End makes me think that some 4-3 team may take a chance on this kid as well. He is just shy of 6'4" and 260 but with is takeoff some team is going to take this kid not just 3-4 teams. I do think that he is a reach or "overrated" to go at #23 but I would take this kid at #34 with no problem but not expect him to contribute right away. After a year in the system and under the guidance of BB this kid could develop into a ALL PRO. There I said it but believe this kid shows enough promise to pick up at the start of the second round, which BB must have been thinking when he traded Cassel to KC.

Here is what I noticed while watching some film on him vs Rutgers.

--He has a great takeoff as evident with his testing numbers.
--Chases the play down from behind with his speed and athletic ability which cannot be taught. I wonder when he was doing this if he was reacting to the play or playing a knife technique where the DE and OLB exchange responsibilities of cutback and QB contain???
--He uses his hands and body control very well as evident when he offsets the LT and RT of Rutgers many times with his quickness and long arms sometimes using an inside move quite effectively.

In the other game I have seen is the VT game where he used that inside move and the LT barely layed a hand on him as he was so quick. At times in that game he was abusing the both OT's as he moves around a lot almost playing the wide side of the field like we do up here in Canada. He has great hand placement and pretty good moves for being such a young DE learning his craft. On one play he reacts well the draw and instead of just running up field he read the OT quick pass set then move up to the LB and stopped his charge upfield and came underneath to make the play at the LOS.

Well that is all I got but though it would add to the thread......maybe not though

 

[mayoclinic]

This was recently posted by Jays52 under the "why so little Larry English love?" thread (http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/225333-why-so-little-larry-english-love.html , post #32). The emphases are mine:

My two coppers on the matter. While I certainly do like Larry English (note avatar) I simply feel that Connor Barwin has more value as a conversion prospect at 23 or 34. The logic for this is very simple. First, we are operating under the assumption that the transition from DE to OLB will be a gamble. It's a low percentage deal, a leading indicator as to why Belichick has shied from drafting such a prospect in the early rounds. Because of this, relative experience becomes a moot point. There are no exact Belichick 34's in college football and that includes Al Groh's scheme because two-gapping in a spread heavy league doesn't make much sense. In essence, you are drafting an athlete and plugging him into a new scheme. So, when one considers these operating perimaters, it changes the requirements for evaluation.

Consider Suggs' rookie season. He was so inept at playing out of the two point, he was lining up three yards deep out of the three point. The nature of the rush is different from stance to stance. Speaking from experience, the momentum shifts are different, the hand placements are different, the pivot points are different, everything changes. What you are looking for is an athlete that displays attributes that correlate well to the position change over a seasoned starter with a full compliment of 43 pass rush moves. In fact, having so much muscle memory engrained into your playing style can even hinder the transition.

So, with these things in mind, what do we look for? We look for a guy with a high motor, leadership characteristics, ability to transition to new positions, hip fluidity, run technique, footspeed and character. What we know about English is that he is a good to excellent 43 defensive end. He has teriffic motor, teriffic hands, teriffic feet and is decent in his hips. What we don't know about English is how well he adapts to position changes. We also know that he (and every other OLB prospect coming out) also isn't close to Barwin as an overall athlete. What we know about Barwin is that he has terrific motor, terrif foot speed and great hips. What we also know about Barwin is that he has demonstrated the ability to take on a completely new position and become an impact player at that position in one year. We also know that he understands what routes tight ends run, how they release, how they get off jams, their blocking techniques and their defensive reads. This is exactly what enabled Troy Brown to play corner at a relatively high level.

Finally, while I aknowledge that Larry English would be a solid pickup, there is no evidence that clearly shows his ability to transition between positions. This exists with Barwin and he has tremendous upside to go with it. When you also factor in that we are looking at a potential DeMarcus Ware level player with fairly minimal risk for late 1st or early 2nd round money, the pick becomes a bit of no-brainer.

In other words, Barwin's unreal athleticism, his ability to adapt and to change sports and positions, his experience playing in space from basketball and as a TE, his intangibles (high motor, intelligence, work ethic), and his lack of ingrained DE habits due to his relative inexperience make for a "perfect storm" as a Pats 3-4 OLB prospect. One might reasonably predict that such a candidate would perhaps be able to make the transition faster than other prospects with lesser athletic ability or who are more ingrained in different positions and playing styles. The opportunity to procure such a prospect at the #23 pick would be an extremely rare occurrence, which combined relatively low cost at that point in the 1st round would significantly mitigate the risk involved.

My acknowledgment and gratitude to Jays52 for his brilliant analysis, which is what I've been clumsily trying to articulate for some time now.

 

[Belichicknumber1]

I just don't see where your getting he is "overrated".He has open some eyes with his work ethic yes. The guy is also very smart. When you can adapt to all the things he has whether it was basketball, TE, ST, DE, the guy has held his own at everything he has touched/played. I would not be pissed at all if he goes to us at 23, because i really like his upside/potential, work ethic and the way he is willing to help his team anyway he can.

 

[maverick4]

My acknowledgment and gratitude to Jays52 for his brilliant analysis, which is what I've been clumsily trying to articulate for some time now.

So now you're touting inexperience as a positive and justification for why Barwin is worth a 1st rounder in the Pats system?

It really is possible to spin anything.

 

[mayoclinic]

So now you're touting inexperience as a positive and justification for why Barwin is worth a 1st rounder in the Pats system?

It really is possible to spin anything.

Not inexperience per se, but lack of being ingrained in a particular system, scheme or position. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a 4 year starter at DE who is used to playing in the 3 point stance and moving forward most of the time may have more trouble adjusting to 3-4 OLB than a 1 year starter at DE who has also a proven track record of playing in space and changing positions.

 

[mayoclinic]

Rob Rang from NFLdraftscout/CBS sports has his latest first round mock from 2 days ago, and has the Pats taking Clay Matthews at #23 and the Phins taking Barwin at #25.

His comments: "Joey Porter's magical season belied the fact that the Dolphins struggled to consistently provide much of a pass rush from any other angle last year. Bill Parcells has a history of taking pass rushers in the first round, and insiders tell me he's intrigued with Barwin's raw tools."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfldraftscout-RobRang

 

[jays52]

Rob Rang from NFLdraftscout/CBS sports has his latest first round mock from 2 days ago, and has the Pats taking Clay Matthews at #23

I swear to god, if the Patriots draft Clay Matthews' son at 23 overall I will put my manhood in a papercutter and pull the handle down.

 

[mayoclinic]

I swear to god, if the Patriots draft Clay Matthews' son at 23 overall I will put my manhood in a papercutter and pull the handle down.

I echo your general sentiments, though I prefer different imagery.

 

[jays52]

I echo your general sentiments, though I prefer different imagery.

hahaha, just my grotesque sense of humor popping up again.

 

[patsfan13]

BB 3-4 seeks large LB not undersized LB. Maybe they can use him as a strong safety, forget Matthews.