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The Larry English Thread (merged)


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As I said before the woe on this board if BB picks no OLB's at all on day 1 is going to be funny:p

Woods and Thomas will be the starting OLB's with Crabel and TBC in rotation .. lets see if he and the FO think any of these guys is worth a day 1 pick and on their board
 
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As I said before the woe on this board if BB picks no OLB's at all on day 1 is going to be funny:p

Woods and Thomas will be the starting OLB's with Crabel and TBC in rotation .. lets see if he and the FO think any of these guys is worth a day 1 pick and on their board

Bite your tongue. :nosmile:
 
Count me in on the pro Larry column. Prior to the combine/pro days English was a consensus mid 1st rounder and Barwin was a mid-late 2nd. Since then Barwin has impressed enough to warrant moving him up. By how much depends on how much you value measurables? Personally I can't move a guy from late 2nd to late 1st just based on workouts. And I just can't have the word "risk" attatched to my 1st round selection, especially when it's filling a role that is so desperately needed to have an impact sooner rather than later. English has quite the resume of a proven player & that's what I want from my 1st round pick. But since we've filled so many other holes thru FA why not try and see if we can't get them both! I would take the sure thing at #23 first though.
 
Larry English and Clint Simtim are basically the same player IMO (Physical,Mean,Can rush the passer and will have a tough time dropping back in coverage due to being stiff in the hips). So for me I rather get the best value at 23..maybe Beatty/Britton or Tyson Jackson just to name a few.

Who knows the Pats might consider English value at 23 but all im saying is we could probably get Simtim in the late second round and still have a similar player to that of Larry English. Also the plus with Simtim is he actually played alot of 3-4 OLB at Virginia.

Lastly I think ppl get caught up too much in combine and workouts and all star games and they dont look at the whole body of work of a player. B4 the workouts and all star games everyone would of been happy with Simtim at 23 but now the flavor of the month is English/Matthews/Barwin. I know Simtim struggled at the senior bowl but also u have to realize they played him at OLB in a 4-3, so it took some getting use to. Even if he struggles playing OLB in our 3-4 perhaps he can make the move to MLB. He has the size and strength to do so if need be.
 
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And I just can't have the word "risk" attatched to my 1st round selection, especially when it's filling a role that is so desperately needed to have an impact sooner rather than later. English has quite the resume of a proven player & that's what I want from my 1st round pick.

I like English a lot, but since when is a small-conference DL whose calling card is running straight to the QB and who looks awkward in space a risk-free OLB prospect? :confused:
 
I like English a lot, but since when is a small-conference DL whose calling card is running straight to the QB and who looks awkward in space a risk-free OLB prospect? :confused:

Because he put up big numbers for 4 years playing a different role against lesser competition, silly. What possible risk could there be? :D
 
I like English a lot, but since when is a small-conference DL whose calling card is running straight to the QB and who looks awkward in space a risk-free OLB prospect? :confused:

I never said risk free! I like both players too, but for me the choice comes down to which do I trust more to actually come through at the next level? The guy who's been putting up consistent #s as a pass rusher and run stuffer or the guy who's converted from basketball player to TE to DE in the last 2 years?
 
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I never said risk free!

I just can't have the word "risk" attatched to my 1st round selection...English has quite the resume of a proven player & that's what I want from my 1st round pick.

;) As I've said, I'm fairly high on English myself. My point is just that the anti-Barwin camp says "can't have Barwin, he's risky"...as if the other alternatives aren't. After Curry and too a lesser extent Brown (who's awfully small himself), they're ALL big risks. It's a position with a very low hit rate, even in the first round.
 
;) As I've said, I'm fairly high on English myself. My point is just that the anti-Barwin camp says "can't have Barwin, he's risky"...as if the other alternatives aren't. After Curry and too a lesser extent Brown (who's awfully small himself), they're ALL big risks. It's a position with a very low hit rate, even in the first round.

Ok let me clarify Connor Barwin is riskier than Larry English, therefore I would put his value at #34 and Larry's at #23. We ALL agree that Barwin has the higher ceiling, but our philosophies differ in terms of which we weigh more; the ceiling or the floor.
 
Ok let me clarify Connor Barwin is riskier than Larry English, therefore I would put his value at #34 and Larry's at #23. We ALL agree that Barwin has the higher ceiling, but our philosophies differ in terms of which we weigh more; the ceiling or the floor.

I personally think Larry English is much riskier as a 3-4 OLB conversion project than Connor Barwin. He's much less risky only as a 4-3 DE. He hasn't shown any of the physical ability or skill set required to play in space. He's a nice guy at getting after the QB though.
 
I personally think Larry English is much riskier as a 3-4 OLB conversion project than Connor Barwin. He's much less risky only as a 4-3 DE. He hasn't shown any of the physical ability or skill set required to play in space. He's a nice guy at getting after the QB though.

This opens up another argument: are we entering an age where even the OLBs become specialized? In other words, would the Pats draft both a pass-rushing OLB and a coverage OLB, hoping that each will improve in other areas but understanding that he will focus on his main talent?

Probably not. But I think they've done a good job of getting guys who do one thing well and other things fairly enough to keep a roster spot.
 
My two coppers on the matter. While I certainly do like Larry English (note avatar) I simply feel that Connor Barwin has more value as a conversion prospect at 23 or 34. The logic for this is very simple. First, we are operating under the assumption that the transition from DE to OLB will be a gamble. It's a low percentage deal, a leading indicator as to why Belichick has shied from drafting such a prospect in the early rounds. Because of this, relative experience becomes a moot point. There are no exact Belichick 34's in college football and that includes Al Groh's scheme because two-gapping in a spread heavy league doesn't make much sense. In essence, you are drafting an athlete and plugging him into a new scheme. So, when one considers these operating perimaters, it changes the requirements for evaluation.

Consider Suggs' rookie season. He was so inept at playing out of the two point, he was lining up three yards deep out of the three point. The nature of the rush is different from stance to stance. Speaking from experience, the momentum shifts are different, the hand placements are different, the pivot points are different, everything changes. What you are looking for is an athlete that displays attributes that correlate well to the position change over a seasoned starter with a full compliment of 43 pass rush moves. In fact, having so much muscle memory engrained into your playing style can even hinder the transition.

So, with these things in mind, what do we look for? We look for a guy with a high motor, leadership characteristics, ability to transition to new positions, hip fluidity, run technique, footspeed and character. What we know about English is that he is a good to excellent 43 defensive end. He has teriffic motor, teriffic hands, teriffic feet and is decent in his hips. What we don't know about English is how well he adapts to position changes. We also know that he (and every other OLB prospect coming out) also isn't close to Barwin as an overall athlete. What we know about Barwin is that he has terrific motor, terrif foot speed and great hips. What we also know about Barwin is that he has demonstrated the ability to take on a completely new position and become an impact player at that position in one year. We also know that he understands what routes tight ends run, how they release, how they get off jams, their blocking techniques and their defensive reads. This is exactly what enabled Troy Brown to play corner at a relatively high level.

Finally, while I aknowledge that Larry English would be a solid pickup, there is no evidence that clearly shows his ability to transition between positions. This exists with Barwin and he has tremendous upside to go with it. When you also factor in that we are looking at a potential DeMarcus Ware level player with fairly minimal risk for late 1st or early 2nd round money, the pick becomes a bit of no-brainer.
 
IMO, English is stronger, more physical and tougher to block than Barwin. The questions about him are his overall speed and ability in space. He can get off the line and after the Qb but if he's another Gholston in space they won't touch him.
 
So, with these things in mind, what do we look for? We look for a guy with a high motor, leadership characteristics, ability to transition to new positions, hip fluidity, run technique, footspeed and character. What we know about English is that he is a good to excellent 43 defensive end. He has teriffic motor, teriffic hands, teriffic feet and is decent in his hips. What we don't know about English is how well he adapts to position changes. We also know that he (and every other OLB prospect coming out) also isn't close to Barwin as an overall athlete. What we know about Barwin is that he has terrific motor, terrif foot speed and great hips. What we also know about Barwin is that he has demonstrated the ability to take on a completely new position and become an impact player at that position in one year.

Wait: you highlighted "transition" for a reason. To whom are you referring? ;)
 
Didn't the guys at the combine on the NFLN say that English weighed 270 there? Or, was it that he ran a 4.70 40-y-d?
 
My two coppers on the matter. While I certainly do like Larry English (note avatar) I simply feel that Connor Barwin has more value as a conversion prospect at 23 or 34. The logic for this is very simple. First, we are operating under the assumption that the transition from DE to OLB will be a gamble. It's a low percentage deal, a leading indicator as to why Belichick has shied from drafting such a prospect in the early rounds. Because of this, relative experience becomes a moot point. There are no exact Belichick 34's in college football and that includes Al Groh's scheme because two-gapping in a spread heavy league doesn't make much sense. In essence, you are drafting an athlete and plugging him into a new scheme. So, when one considers these operating perimaters, it changes the requirements for evaluation.

Consider Suggs' rookie season. He was so inept at playing out of the two point, he was lining up three yards deep out of the three point. The nature of the rush is different from stance to stance. Speaking from experience, the momentum shifts are different, the hand placements are different, the pivot points are different, everything changes. What you are looking for is an athlete that displays attributes that correlate well to the position change over a seasoned starter with a full compliment of 43 pass rush moves. In fact, having so much muscle memory engrained into your playing style can even hinder the transition.

So, with these things in mind, what do we look for? We look for a guy with a high motor, leadership characteristics, ability to transition to new positions, hip fluidity, run technique, footspeed and character. What we know about English is that he is a good to excellent 43 defensive end. He has teriffic motor, teriffic hands, teriffic feet and is decent in his hips. What we don't know about English is how well he adapts to position changes. We also know that he (and every other OLB prospect coming out) also isn't close to Barwin as an overall athlete. What we know about Barwin is that he has terrific motor, terrif foot speed and great hips. What we also know about Barwin is that he has demonstrated the ability to take on a completely new position and become an impact player at that position in one year. We also know that he understands what routes tight ends run, how they release, how they get off jams, their blocking techniques and their defensive reads. This is exactly what enabled Troy Brown to play corner at a relatively high level.

Finally, while I aknowledge that Larry English would be a solid pickup, there is no evidence that clearly shows his ability to transition between positions. This exists with Barwin and he has tremendous upside to go with it. When you also factor in that we are looking at a potential DeMarcus Ware level player with fairly minimal risk for late 1st or early 2nd round money, the pick becomes a bit of no-brainer.

:yeeha: Bravo! You've articulated what I've been trying to say much better than I have.

I think Barwin's relative inexperience at DE (that is, being less settled in a particular style or scheme than players with more experience, resulting in less "muscle memory" as you term it) combined with his superior athletic ability and experience playing in space all make him much more likely to make the transition to 3-4 OLB in a Belichick defense more easily and quickly than anyone I have seen, including past players like Vrabel and other talented prospects like Brown, English and Maybin. He has already shown a terrific ability to transition (from football to basketball, from offense to defense).

Like you say, I think that this kind of an opportunity is a no-brainer. To me it is as exciting as was the opportunity to get Mayo last year. At 23 it would be a potential coup, and while no first round pick is risk free, picking at that point in the draft it would be relatively low risk.

Thank you for stating all of this so clearly.
 
Didn't the guys at the combine on the NFLN say that English weighed 270 there? Or, was it that he ran a 4.70 40-y-d?

English weighed in at 254 lbs. and ran a 4.80 40. The nfl.com official combine web site erroneously listed his weight at 272 lbs., resulting in confusion and the rumor that he had gained 18 lbs. since the senior bowl. Multiple sites have since documented that this was pure error.
 
Thanks for the update, Mayo, and keep bringing the knowledge. You, and Jays, and Mr. Box, et. al. have been doing an awesome job. Maybe you guys can start a thread on potential CBs & SS?
 
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Awww I fuggin love you guys too!
 
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