Celts TRADE #5..Wally, West for Allen

[patriotspride]

Why would you throw up over his face?

We just got a perennial All-Star for the #5 pick and a useless vet with a terrible contract. It hurts to give up Delonte, but he wasn't going to get many minutes with Rondo taking over point anyway.

bad tuna

 

[dhamz]

If this is the first of a series of moves, it could be the start of something good. If Danny can take Ratliff's contract and find a team blinded by Green's athleticism and add some quality players, they could make a run in the East.

If this is the end, it isn't anything to get excited about Right now this is a terrible defensive team with 3 guys who want shots, lots of shots and nothing but JAGs everywhere else. That doesn't even take into account that Pierce and Allen are old and coming off injury plagued seasons which makes it unlikely both guys stay healthy. That team gets beat easily in round one of the Eastern playoffs.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

If this is the first of a series of moves, it could be the start of something good. If Danny can take Ratliff's contract and find a team blinded by Green's athleticism and add some quality players, they could make a run in the East.

If this is the end, it isn't anything to get excited about Right now this is a terrible defensive team with 3 guys who want shots, lots of shots and nothing but JAGs everywhere else. That doesn't even take into account that Pierce and Allen are old and coming off injury plagued seasons which makes it unlikely both guys stay healthy. That team gets beat easily in round one of the Eastern playoffs.

Who easily beats this team in the first round? I don't know if any Eastern Conference team easily beats anyone in the first round. The East is downright awful. A freaking one-man team, perhaps the worst Finals team ever, represented the conference this year. A big part of my excitement is that you don't have to be very good to do anything in this Eastern Conference.

It's like the the opposite of the Jets. If they were in the NFC they'd have real playoff and maybe even superbowl hopes. Instead they have no chance at the division and are fighting for 1 playoff spot (either Denver or SD has one of the wildcards wrapped up already).

 

[VJCPatriot]

The East may suck but this team will need to put up 120 points a night to compensate for the terrible defense and lack of size in the front lines. What decent big man do we have besides Jefferson? NONE. Meanwhile our wings are now even more logjammed and our defense got worse. Oh and we got Ray Allen's contract for 3 more years at an average of 17M per year. Woohoo, we got older, AND we tied up our cap! Brilliant!

 

[Patti37]

Not true at all. He's always been on bad defensive teams, but he's a solid defender who can create some turnovers. Put him with Rondo in the backcourt, they will be a good combination defensively.

What you said about the contracts was on point. We are positioning ourselves to actually matter in free agency within a few years, and a few decent playoff runs will only help that.

My only concern with this trade has been the fact that the Celts have done very little to improve themselves defensively.

Everyone is saying Allen is a poor defender. I hope you are correct that he is a solid defender.

The Celtics did need to get a veteran. They needed someone along side Pierce to help with the development of the young players...they still have all the young players minus Delonte. If Big Al, Green, and Rondo continue to develop then we have a strong nucleus. If Tony Allen comes back strong from the ACL injury, I think they will be in decent shape. How these players will develop is unknown?

Once they lost the lottery they had to find a way to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[bakes781]

I liked the deal, but not with Delonte included that's too much IMO. My preference would have been to blow the whole thing up, but perhaps Allen will help Green's development.

 

[BradyManny]

Everyone is saying Allen is a poor defender.

It's just something people say b/c he's been on offense-first teams with poor defenses. Not to mention the team has sucked the past two seasons and admittedly Allen's effort may have been lacking at times on the defensive end of the court.

But to say he doesn't have the physical attributes and talent to play defense would be inaccurate.

Same goes for Paul Pierce, who recently has gotten the "he's not the same defender he was" label. Did Pierce's defense decline? Of course not. The team defense was atrocious b/c of the youngsters surrounding him and b/c Wally Sczerbiak is a huge liability.

 

[Real World]

Actually, they will get rid of these high-priced veteran contracts. In 3 years when both Allen and Pierce's contracts expires.

Nobody has been looking at the Celtics rationally recently. I don't know if it's the Sox success with youth or the Pats success with youth, but the whole Celtic nation has become youth obsessed, forgetting that, currently, of all leagues, its the NBA that puts the highest value on experience.

How can this backfire? Delonte West, as much as I am a fan of his, is a JAG. Wally Sczerbiak is a horrendous defensive player with a streaky shot and an overpriced contract. Jeff Green could turn into a serviceable-to above average player in a few years. Ray Allen is an All-Star, one of the best shooters in the league, and a terrific defensive player.

WORST CASE SCENARIO: Pierce and Allen make a few runs at the playoffs, fail, make Boston relevant in the meanwhile. In those three years, Jefferson, Green and Rondo actually approach the age in their career in which they will be strong enough to form a nucleus on their own, and as Pierce and Allen's contract expires, not only do we have the cap space to resign our talent as it begins to approach its prime, we'll have room left over to sign some complimentary parts in free agency.

Honestly, for the "let's build around Al Jefferson" group, you do realize that you're probably 3+ years away from Jefferson even thinking about being able to carry a team.

Is Jeff Green really worth not contending in that period of time?

Let's keep some perspective.

Relevent? Experience? Contracts are up IN THREE YEARS? My god dude how long have you followed the Celtics? I started in the 80's when they were unreal, and perenial contenders. In sports, you're either terrible, or competing for a championship. What are we now? Niether. This trade ensures anotehr 10 years of mediocrity. What we've done now, is we've traded away a piece (#5) that would grow with Rondo, Green, and Jefferson and propel us toward beng a contender. Now, we're 40+ wins for 3 years, and then starting over. Only, at that point, we'll need 4-5 years more time to be good again. 3 + 5 = 8, which means Jefferson will be 30, and we'll be right where we are now with Pierce. GROSS!

A 32 year old Shooting Guard. HAHAHAHA!!!

I'm fed up with being a Celtics fan. :enranged:

 

[Real World]

Not true at all. He's always been on bad defensive teams, but he's a solid defender who can create some turnovers. Put him with Rondo in the backcourt, they will be a good combination defensively.

What you said about the contracts was on point. We are positioning ourselves to actually matter in free agency within a few years, and a few decent playoff runs will only help that.

He's a liability on defense, which is why Presti entertained offers to trade him. Pierce and Allen are terrible defenders, and average 3+ TO's apiece.

GROOSSS!!!

Free Agents? HAHAHA!!!

What FA basketball player has ever signed with Boston? Brian Scalabrine? HAHAHAHA!!!

We're the Washington Celtics/Boston Wizards.

 

[Real World]

No, the team sucked, just like the Bucks, who were a horrible defensive team while he was there. When healthy, he has the quickness and length to defend.

Again, saying his defense is lacking would be like saying Pierce's over the last couple years is lacking. I challenge both assumptions.

He's a significant upgrade defensively over Wally. While Pierce's D has been hindered by a bad team defense, Wally was, at times, that very source of the poor team defense.

I'm a significant upgrade over Wally defensively. All 5'8 of me. What's that mean? Pierce is a terrible defender. He came into the league as a good one, and has significantly deteriorated in that department. Watch him on D, he's fat now, and hasn't moved well laterally in 3 years.

So what are we now, the 5th or 6th seed?

 

[BradyManny]

I'm a significant upgrade over Wally defensively. All 5'8 of me. What's that mean? Pierce is a terrible defender. He came into the league as a good one, and has significantly deteriorated in that department. Watch him on D, he's fat now, and hasn't moved well laterally in 3 years.

He gained weight after the injury. I started a thread on this very topic. I still think Pierce is a good defender.

 

[BradyManny]

Relevent? Experience? Contracts are up IN THREE YEARS? My god dude how long have you followed the Celtics? I started in the 80's when they were unreal, and perenial contenders. In sports, you're either terrible, or competing for a championship. What are we now? Niether. This trade ensures anotehr 10 years of mediocrity. What we've done now, is we've traded away a piece (#5) that would grow with Rondo, Green, and Jefferson and propel us toward beng a contender. Now, we're 40+ wins for 3 years, and then starting over. Only, at that point, we'll need 4-5 years more time to be good again. 3 + 5 = 8, which means Jefferson will be 30, and we'll be right where we are now with Pierce. GROSS!

A 32 year old Shooting Guard. HAHAHAHA!!!

I'm fed up with being a Celtics fan. :enranged:

Get a hold of yourself!

What year do you think that Rondo, Green, Jefferson group was going to contend in? At best, let's call it 2010.

Is one more piece to the puzzle, let's say it's Green or Brewer, really worth being irrelevant for three more seasons? Is that piece that unattainable through other means, such as trade, free agency or ensuing drafts? Is that piece such an incredible upgrade over what other pieces we have, whether we're talking a defensive swingman, (Tony Allen), or a rebounding, defense-oriented big (Kendrick Perkins)?

No, No, and No.

If no more big trades are made - and I think we will add some more pieces, but am not sure of the cost - Rondo, Green and Jefferson are still going to be there at the end of this run with Allen.

And in those three years, those guys will have been to the playoffs three times, and had that important experience. How many young guys win the championship on their first go? They don't.

If anything, this trade ensures we do NOT become the Washington Bullets who were mediocre for eternity. If we had drafted #5, then yes, we would have been stuck in that mediocrity indefinitely.

You're advocating us becoming the Chicago Bulls, who have been taking lottery picks since Jordan retired. The C's just started this rebuilding stuff in earnest the past few years, and it's never been true rebuilding. You, and other fans like you, act like we've sucked all along. We haven't, we've been mediocre, we have not truly been rebuilding. Off the top of my head, the only two lottery picks I can think of on this team right now are Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Green, Jefferson, Rondo all were selected mid to late first round. WE HAVE NOT BEEN "REBUILDING" because we never blew it up. Danny's skilled drafting has given that illusion.

If you want to tear it up and rebuild and spend years and years making lottery picks like the Bulls have, fine, so be it. But I don't think you truly understand what rebuilding is, I don't think C's fans really get it.

This gives us a chance to get out of the mediocre cycle, and if we fail, we're in no worse shape than we were had we not taking a chance.

 

[dhamz]

What year do you think that Rondo, Green, Jefferson group was going to contend in?

Personally I would say the year after never.

 

[BradyManny]

Personally I would say the year after never.

Well, I'd agree with you. And I don't think the #5 pick would have made a difference either.

I think it's a pipe dream that all of our young players pan out and turn into stars, and all remain on the team. The fact is, most fans would rather have this pipe dream. I think we also have a tendency to overrate our young players here. They'll all be good players, but I'm not sure if any will ever be as good as Paul Pierce.

If people need a reminder of this fact, just think of how amazingly bad our team was without Paul Pierce last season.

They were 4-34 without Paul Pierce.

That is a pace of 8.5 wins in a season. And that IS the worst record in NBA history!!

Edit - updated for the proper math, it's even worse than I thought.

 

[Boston Boxer]

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/players/37825

Strengths: Pruitt led his USC Trojan team to an outstanding tournament run this past season, showing the ability to play point guard in the process. His height and athleticism are the two most intriguing assets that he brings to the table. He has NBA 3-point range on his jumper, and has shown that he can shoot both on the move and from a standstill position. His court vision and ability to run a team have improved dramatically over his time at USC.

Weaknesses: Gabe can be too flashy at times, making it difficult for him to consistently control the tempo of the game. Everything he does seems to be at 100 miles per hour, leading him to struggle a bit in the half-court set. His shot selection surely needs to be improved. He frequently jacked up contested 3-pointers at inopportune times last season.

Outlook: Pruitt hired an agent, so he is in the draft for good. He essentially had no choice but to enter the draft because USC has the nation’s top high school prospect in 6’5 O.J. Mayo coming in next year. Pruitt should see himself drafted in the mid second round, although there have been some rumors of a possible promise in the late first round.

he sounds a lot like Marcus Banks. I think he will be a decent back up to Rondo

 

[Stokes]

I thought this was interesting, from today's globe in Dan Shaughnessy's article. Its a quote from probably the biggest cheerleader the Celts have, Tom Heinsohn, and another from the Cooz:

Heinsohn: "You know what happens when you are making a souffle and you mix all the ingredients and put it in the oven?" started Heinsohn. "If you take it out of the oven too soon, it flops. And that may be what we are doing."

Cooz was similarly underwhelmed.
"I didn't want them to make any trades," mused the first great Celtic. "I don't have that kind of confidence in aging free agents, especially guys like Garnett or Allen who haven't won anything."

Geez, when even Tommy says something bad about a move you KNOW it was terrible. I mean, he's such a homer he made numerous comparisons between Rajon Rondo and Bob Cousy last year!

 

[BradyManny]

I thought this was interesting, from today's globe in Dan Shaughnessy's article. Its a quote from probably the biggest cheerleader the Celts have, Tom Heinsohn, and another from the Cooz:

Heinsohn: "You know what happens when you are making a souffle and you mix all the ingredients and put it in the oven?" started Heinsohn. "If you take it out of the oven too soon, it flops. And that may be what we are doing."

Cooz was similarly underwhelmed.
"I didn't want them to make any trades," mused the first great Celtic. "I don't have that kind of confidence in aging free agents, especially guys like Garnett or Allen who haven't won anything."

Geez, when even Tommy says something bad about a move you KNOW it was terrible. I mean, he's such a homer he made numerous comparisons between Rajon Rondo and Bob Cousy last year!

Well, that's the entire point, he thought it was a bad move b/c they gave up young players. This is the same Tommy Heinson who thought Justin Reed was going to be a key part of the C's future. He - like lots of other fans here - completely overrate our young players. Tommy thinks that the young players we have here are going to bring us a title. These guys were 4-34 together last season without Paul Pierce.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

add me to the list of people who had little faith Al, Green, Rondo, and Yi were going to amount to much, especially with horrible management/coaching.

The only difference between Boston right now and past teams that seem to be in the lottery every year is Pierce. They could trade him away to speed up the process or bring in some help.

I'm sick of the Cs being bad and drafting between 7-12 every year. Last year they were truly awful. Now they'll make the playoffs. It's better than the alternative.

 

[scout]

Now that I've digested the trade and somewhat gotten over the next promising rookie, I must say I'm looking forward to this basketball season. Ray Allen is at an all star level or just below, same with Paul Pierce. Jefferson improves even just minimally and he is a problem for most of the opposition, and may even be all star material. Rondo has demonstrated that he can play defense and improves on the point. This team will lose some games they should have won and surprise some people by winning some big games. The critical point is that they will be winning. When Allen's contract expires/ or is traded to an almost contender ( maybe he even stays) then maybe Gerald Green will be ready. If not, they will be in position to sign a big time free agent (they will not be seeing any high draft picks). There may be one more piece to add as Theo is still aboard. Hey, they take the Eastern Conference and may even win a playoff series. The core of the team is intact and will be one free agent player away from contending (and they will be winning).

 

[JoeSixPat]

Seattle fans HATE losing Allen - they think they've taken a big step back while we took a step forward.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/reader_feedback.php?id=188

Actually I think this is a good trade for both teams. We gained a veteran scorer to take pressure off of Pierce, and assuming Allen is healthy, picked up an all-star that can help us actually contend.

Meanwhile we didn't give up much in terms of future potential - though I do like West, one has to give up something good to get something good.