WRs: Every team but one

[TB_Helmet]

There is no Randy Moss in the NFL at this time, not Julio Jones, not AB, not OBJ, not Mike Evans. Last closest thing we had was Calvin Johnson.

Moss was the greatest WR I ever watched. Rice has the stronger resume, but Moss, singularly was...wow.

I'd put Hopkins as the closest to Moss out of the current guys, although certainly not his equal.

 

[miloofcroton]

Bill likes 3 cone drill times. It's FACT. Spare me the Madden BS. I have a family, and life. Don't play it.

Ya, and? Does he just rank people according to it?

I like the 40, but I'm not going to pretend it's proof of anything. It's just an indicator.

In the case of the 3 cone, there are a couple things to consider.

- It's a skill that you have to practice. When 0.2 seconds out of 7 seconds matters (that's 3% in case you were wondering), small inefficiencies matter.
- For the same reason, it's unreliable. Have you ever checked to see if players reliably run the same 3 cone time before and after the combine? Probably not, and there's probably very little data on it because players just run it once.
- Thirdly, it's actually harder to run the faster you are. If you have the horsepower to run a 4.3 40 and you weigh 225 pounds, that's a ton of momentum ( p = mv ) to change. I can easily see someone err in trying to run too fast, leading them to spend more effort in acceleration and deceleration, instead of coasting and being able to change direction more quickly. Coasting for a 4.3 guy might be just running at a 4.5 pace. So, this reiterates point #1.

I do think there's value in the 3 cone, principally because football does a whole lot more sideways movements than shuttles or 40s, but you have to realize the testing has limitations and weaknesses.

 

[miloofcroton]

I'd put Hopkins as the closest to Moss out of the current guys, although certainly not his equal.

Hopkins is more Rice than Moss. Moss was a creature all to his own. Maybe Mike Evans is a tiny bit like him in practice, although Evans accomplishes more with power what Moss did with speed.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Ya, and? Does he just rank people according to it?

I like the 40, but I'm not going to pretend it's proof of anything. It's just an indicator.

In the case of the 3 cone, there are a couple things to consider.

- It's a skill that you have to practice. When 0.2 seconds out of 7 seconds matters (that's 3% in case you were wondering), small inefficiencies matter.
- For the same reason, it's unreliable. Have you ever checked to see if players reliably run the same 3 cone time before and after the combine? Probably not, and there's probably very little data on it because players just run it once.
- Thirdly, it's actually harder to run the faster you are. If you have the horsepower to run a 4.3 40 and you weigh 225 pounds, that's a ton of momentum ( p = mv ) to change. I can easily see someone err in trying to run too fast, leading them to spend more effort in acceleration and deceleration, instead of coasting and being able to change direction more quickly. Coasting for a 4.3 guy might be just running at a 4.5 pace. So, this reiterates point #1.

I do think there's value in the 3 cone, principally because football does a whole lot more sideways movements than shuttles or 40s, but you have to realize the testing has limitations and weaknesses.

I'd feel comfortable enough in saying that he values it enough, that he wouldn't waste a first round pick on a WR with that number. I'd bet on it.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

It doesn't help that the Pats have had inordinately bad luck with drafted WRs staying healthy over the last 15 years:

2004 P. K. Sam: played 2 games
2006 Chad Jackson: PUP in 2007
2008 Matthew Slater: not a WR
2009 Julian Edelman: broke arm in 2009, IR in 2012
2009 Brandon Tate: IR in 2009
2010 Taylor Price: inactive for 15 games in 2010
2012 Jeremy Ebert: cut
2013 Josh Boyce: IR in 2013
2013 Aaron Dobson: IR in 2014 and 2015
2014 Jeremy Gallon: cut
2016 Malcolm Mitchell: IR in 2017
2016 Devin Lucien: never on 53, waived/injured in 2017
2018 Braxton Berrios: IR in 2018

 

[miloofcroton]

For those underrating the value of having an elite outside receiver in this offense....

I just have to say one name: Randy Moss

End of discussion.

And the Giants showed that having a one-dimensional offense, no matter how great, has downsides.

Of all the offensive positions, WR is literally the most one-dimensional position, which is why I'm a little hesitant to invest in one except under the right circumstances.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Perhaps the greatest myth on Patsfans board is that the Steelers have some kind of magic sauce for drafting WR's. This is complemented by the idea that high draft picks used on WR's are part of the answer.

Could we please have this post as a stickey?

I mean, you gotta give them credit for nailing JuJu, Sanders and AB but its not like they are this WR factory.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

I mean, you gotta give them credit for nailing JuJu, Sanders and AB but its not like they are this WR factory.

That's like saying you gotta give credit to the Pats for taking TB12. Lol. Sanders was a 3rd and Brown was a sixth. It was luck, nothing more.

 

[miloofcroton]

I'd feel comfortable enough in saying that he values it enough, that he wouldn't waste a first round pick on a WR with that number. I'd bet on it.

Would you eat your words if DK turned in a 7.00 3-cone at his pro day?

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Would you eat your words if DK turned in a 7.00 3-cone at his pro day?

It'll never happen. He's to stiff. Either way though I'd have to eat my words if he did obviously. I'm just not concerned about it.

 

[miloofcroton]

It'll never happen. He's to stiff.

Did you think that before the combine?

I'm just saying it's the classic "you look fast on tape, but oh, you have a poor 40 time, so you must be slow". Everything about Metcalf has already been known from his tape. How many people stepped forward and said he had change of direction issues before that 3-cone time?

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Did you think that before the combine?

I'm just saying it's the classic "you look fast on tape, but oh, you have a poor 40 time, so you must be slow". Everything about Metcalf has already been known from his tape. How many people stepped forward and said he had change of direction issues before that 3-cone time?

But how many times on film was he asked to do so? He's not running go routes, and simple posts, and slants in the Pats offense.

 

[miloofcroton]

Re: Metcalf is too stiff

Go to about 2:00 into this video. He runs a out/hook. Is it a sharp route? Eh, he had to wait for his QB to throw it, so there are inefficiencies all around. That being said, watch that route and tell me he's stiff.



That's about as fluid as you can be at 6'4" 220. Seriously.

 

[miloofcroton]

But how many times on film was he asked to do so? He's not running go routes, and simple posts, and slants in the Pats offense.

Same was true of Calvin Johnson.

Ya, it's definitely a weakness of his, but that doesn't mean he can't do it.

 

[Gronkowski123]

I thought Dobson was legit after that big game against the Steelers...

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

Same was true of Calvin Johnson.

Ya, it's definitely a weakness of his, but that doesn't mean he can't do it.

Hey, I'd welcome the addition. Lord knows we need WR's. I'd be pulling for him. I just can't see Bill using the pick that would be required to get him. (that would be a trade up from 32).

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's like saying you gotta give credit to the Pats for taking TB12. Lol. Sanders was a 3rd and Brown was a sixth. It was luck, nothing more.

I absolutely give credit to the NEP for landing Tom. They scouted him. The evaluated him. The developed him.

We were the only team that talked to Lloyd Carr about him.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

I absolutely give credit to the NEP for landing Tom. They scouted him. The evaluated him. The developed him.

We were the only team that talked to Lloyd Carr about him.

Come on...lol! So they waited till the 6th round to take the QB that they knew would not only be the QB of the future, but also dominate the league, and win 6 SB's? LMAO!!! I thought ole bill polian was quoted as saying they knew he'd be good...but still that was a complete f******" dart throw.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Come on...lol! So they waited till the 6th round to take the QB that they knew would not only be the QB of the future, but also dominate the league, and win 6 SB's? LMAO!!! I thought ole bill polian was quoted as saying they knew he'd be good...but still that was a complete f******" dart throw.

I'm not saying they were clairvoyant in the selection. I'm saying you have to give them credit for identifying he had the potential to do well in the NFL.

 

[Hyped]

And the Giants showed that having a one-dimensional offense, no matter how great, has downsides.

Of all the offensive positions, WR is literally the most one-dimensional position, which is why I'm a little hesitant to invest in one except under the right circumstances.

No doubt...but no one can deny that having a diva outside WR doesn't make a difference. OBJ might have cost the Giants some talent elsewhere on the roster...but in the right circumstance (a la Moss) a diva WR can help A LOT...especially on a "prove it" type of contract. We did pay Moss 9M/year after that...and he wasn't the reason we were bad in '08-'10*....

*LOL @ me calling the '08-'10 seasons "bad".....god...we are spoiled!