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XLIX

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
I think it is. Some of the material is recycled, meaning things already talked about in Holley’s books, for example. But much isn’t. I’m halfway through, just finished reading the SB 39 section. A ton of the source material for the book is from the Kraft family; the first 1/4 of the book goes over his meeting Myra, his career, his attempts to land the Patriots, and the Parcells years.

One thing I learned was how the NFL really screwed James Orthwein. He had never intended to move the Patriots to St. Louis. He stepped in because the NFL was desperate for help, and Orthwein wanted an expansion team in St. Louis and thought by stabilizing the Pats it would prove that his ownership consortium would be good for the league. He’d sell the Pats to local ownership and then help with the St. Louis expansion team. He upped the Pats‘ value much quicker than anyone thought through his shrewd pick up of Parcells. The NFL’s response to this and the free stadium he helped get St. Louis to build was by granting the 2nd expansion franchise to Jacksonville instead of St. Louis. Orthwein was pissed, and I don’t blame him. That’s when he decided to sell and intended to sell to a St. Louis group (Stan Kroenke actually, the current owner of the Rams).
Disclaimer: I have the book but have not yet started it. Having said that....

I don't believe for a second Orthwein didn't want to move the team to St. Louis. The guy's full name was James Busch Orthwein. That's Busch as in Anheiser-Busch beer, which is synonymous with St. Louis, Missouri. It was the Kraft lease that prevented that, not anything the NFL did.
 

tom444

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Disclaimer: I have the book but have not yet started it. Having said that....

I don't believe for a second Orthwein didn't want to move the team to St. Louis. The guy's full name was James Busch Orthwein. That's Busch as in Anheiser-Busch beer, which is synonymous with St. Louis, Missouri. It was the Kraft lease that prevented that, not anything the NFL did.
I disagree.
 

Hammer of Thor

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Disclaimer: I have the book but have not yet started it. Having said that....

I don't believe for a second Orthwein didn't want to move the team to St. Louis. The guy's full name was James Busch Orthwein. That's Busch as in Anheiser-Busch beer, which is synonymous with St. Louis, Missouri. It was the Kraft lease that prevented that, not anything the NFL did.
Here’s the story as per the book. Whether it’s 100% correct, i don’t know - Kraft is the source for a lot of this stuff.

Victor Kiam was in financial trouble, due to the stadium lease with Kraft and due to the boycotts resulting from the Lisa Olsen situation. Note that when he sold everything he made a huge amount of cash, so it wasn’t a long-term problem. It was a liquidity issue.

It was so bad the NFL stepped in, took care of short term issues, and worked to find a buyer. The NFL was thrilled to find Orthwein because of his deep pockets - they were desperate for stability in New England. The NFL did not want the franchise to move.

Orthwein desperately wanted a franchise back in St. Louis after the Cardinals left. But he didn’t want to actually be the owner himself. And he also didn’t want to move another team because he saw first hand how it hurt city pride. The NFL begged him to take on the Patriots. He thought it was a perfect way to achieve his goal — he was working behind the scenes to get the RCA dome built and to get an ownership group assembled because he knew the NFL planned to expand. The whole St. Louis Stallion stuff - that was supposed to be the expansion franchise name. He figured if he stepped in, bailed out the NFL and turned the Patriots around, they would reward the ownership group he organized with the expansion franchise. In his opening statement when he bought the team, he said he was just a caretaker owner to get the team on its feet, and he’d sell once he did that. According to the book, he meant it.

The hiring of Parcells and drafting of Bledsoe caused things to succeed beyond everyone’s wildest dreams. They noticed our reaction in New England, how we sold out, how our ratings spiked, how we were buying Patriots merchandise. “They” meaning not just the NFL but rich people. Orthwein still wasn’t making a lot of money - the Foxboro Stadium lease was a real albatross - but it was no longer deep red like Kiam. He started receiving large offers for the team in the spring/summer of 1993. He decided to sell at that point, and hired Goldman Sachs to do a blind auction. The expansion vote was coming up and he was ready to have that St. Louis expansion team. Procurement and due diligence takes a while, so the plan would be for the auction to conclude around the new year.

That’s when the bomb dropped, that the NFL owners preferred Jacksonville’s ownership and stadium situation to the one he assembled in St. Louis. They unanimously approved the Panthers franchise. Jacksonville was a 26-2 vote with Orthwein being in the minority.

He was pissed and felt betrayed. That was when he decided to spite the NFL and take the Pats to St. Louis. The NFL didn’t want that at all - the New England market was too huge to lose and had just shown how viable it was. He sent a threatening letter to the NFL. It’s implied that he wanted Goldman Sachs to skew the auction towards St. Louis ownership, specifically Stan Kroenke.

Ultimately Goldman kept asking Kraft for the value to get out of the lease, and Kraft refused because giving any dollar amount would allow the team to break the lease and pay monetary damages in court as compensation. Finally Kraft and Orthwein wound up meeting; Kroenke’s offer price was $25m higher than Kraft’s but it was contingent on Orthwein assuming all costs of getting out of the lease. Orthwein gave up and took his $70m in capital gains for owning the team for 2 years....
 
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BaconGrundleCandy

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AR would be enormous rn. He can play pretty much anywhere for us imo slot/x/z. Very underrated rr esp on double moves. Strong hands, physical and always makes a few big plays. You can depend on him. I wouldn't mind A Miller as well.



Any RB in the league can make this play but his pass protection is hurting that team. Effects play calling all around. Such a waste of a pick. Seriously when people say "why don't you do this for a living" ... Some of these guys haven't a clue on how to build a team and play the draft.

https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1305962103287808000?s=19
 

XLIX

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Here’s the story as per the book. Whether it’s 100% correct, i don’t know - Kraft is the source for a lot of this stuff.

Victor Kiam was in financial trouble, due to the stadium lease with Kraft and due to the boycotts resulting from the Lisa Olsen situation. Note that when he sold everything he made a huge amount of cash, so it wasn’t a long-term problem. It was a liquidity issue.

It was so bad the NFL stepped in, took care of short term issues, and worked to find a buyer. The NFL was thrilled to find Orthwein because of his deep pockets - they were desperate for stability in New England. The NFL did not want the franchise to move.

Orthwein desperately wanted a franchise back in St. Louis after the Cardinals left. But he didn’t want to actually be the owner himself. And he also didn’t want to move another team because he saw first hand how it hurt city pride. The NFL begged him to take on the Patriots. He thought it was a perfect way to achieve his goal — he was working behind the scenes to get the RCA dome built and to get an ownership group assembled because he knew the NFL planned to expand. The whole St. Louis Stallion stuff - that was supposed to be the expansion franchise name. He figured if he stepped in, bailed out the NFL and turned the Patriots around, they would reward the ownership group he organized with the expansion franchise. In his opening statement when he bought the team, he said he was just a caretaker owner to get the team on its feet, and he’d sell once he did that. According to the book, he meant it.

The hiring of Parcells and drafting of Bledsoe caused things to succeed beyond everyone’s wildest dreams. They noticed our reaction in New England, how we sold out, how our ratings spiked, how we were buying Patriots merchandise. “They” meaning not just the NFL but rich people. Orthwein still wasn’t making a lot of money - the Foxboro Stadium lease was a real albatross - but it was no longer deep red like Kiam. He started receiving large offers for the team in the spring/summer of 1993. He decided to sell at that point, and hired Goldman Sachs to do a blind auction. The expansion vote was coming up and he was ready to have that St. Louis expansion team. Procurement and due diligence takes a while, so the plan would be for the auction to conclude around the new year.

That’s when the bomb dropped, that the NFL owners preferred Jacksonville’s ownership and stadium situation to the one he assembled in St. Louis. They unanimously approved the Panthers franchise. Jacksonville was a 26-2 vote with Orthwein being in the minority.

He was pissed and felt betrayed. That was when he decided to spite the NFL and take the Pats to St. Louis. The NFL didn’t want that at all - the New England market was too huge to lose and had just shown how viable it was. He sent a threatening letter to the NFL. It’s implied that he wanted Goldman Sachs to skew the auction towards St. Louis ownership, specifically Stan Kroenke.

Ultimately Goldman kept asking Kraft for the value to get out of the lease, and Kraft refused because giving any dollar amount would allow the team to break the lease and pay monetary damages in court as compensation. Finally Kraft and Orthwein wound up meeting; Kroenke’s offer price was $25m higher than Kraft’s but it was contingent on Orthwein assuming all costs of getting out of the lease. Orthwein gave up and took his $70m in capital gains for owning the team for 2 years....
I'll have to read the book because right now it just doesn't conform with what we've always been told. And some things don't make sense. The NFL may not have wanted him to move but there wasn't crap they could do about it. This was a time period when franchises were moving left and right and the NFL was powerless to stop them. Plus you say they didn't want to lose the large Boston market. Well I guarantee you the League, given the choice, would much rather have lost the Boston market than the L.A. market, which is what ended up happening. Not only is L.A. much bigger but, at the time, there was no certainty Boston's newfound interest in the NFL would be anything long-lasting.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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While I wait for game pass to get its **** together so I can watch Cam/OL ...

Reagor was supposedly decent. I didn't watch this game yet but supposedly some miscommunication, bad passes. This was 3rd & 22 I believe ...

Look at that release lmao. He was hyped last night. Leaving a foot divot in the turf on every step. Definitely pumped up. Few drops which are expected with him. Once he settles down, adds some NFL weight. He'll be more than a handful. Especially with all those other weapons they have.


 

Hammer of Thor

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I'll have to read the book because right now it just doesn't conform with what we've always been told. And some things don't make sense. The NFL may not have wanted him to move but there wasn't crap they could do about it. This was a time period when franchises were moving left and right and the NFL was powerless to stop them.
You’re absolutely right — and that’s what Orthwein’s threatening letter to the NFL basically told them. I know I mentioned the NFL didn’t want the Patriots to move, but I didn’t mean to imply they could stop it if it came down to it. Only that they were trying to work to prevent it from happening to the extent they could.
Plus you say they didn't want to lose the large Boston market. Well I guarantee you the League, given the choice, would much rather have lost the Boston market than the L.A. market, which is what ended up happening. Not only is L.A. much bigger but, at the time, there was no certainty Boston's newfound interest in the NFL would be anything long-lasting.
I agree with that too, but that’s a red herring. They didn’t want to lose a franchise in either market. Just a year later when the Rams did move, the NFL voted 21-3-6 against the move (per Wikipedia). Only after a lawsuit threat did they decide to give in.

Ultimately the only reason the Patriots didn’t move was Kraft and his persistence with the stadium lease. The NFL may have tried to stop a Kroenke move to St. Louis, but it probably would have ended the same way as the Rams move did.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Watching C's, waiting for A22 (still!) ... Some quick Seattle thoughts and other crumbs ...


  • Most likely just bc they played Atlanta but they played a decent amount of nickel last game. Usually a C3 Sky/Cloud or w/e variation they're running defense. They have a rep for bring straight forward but always had nasty playmakers. Still lots of disguise if they really want to dress things up. Not sure how much we'll see being week 2 for both teams.

  • Here's some clips of us running different C3

  • Remember Atlanta passed for like 450 yards but a lot was in prevent/soft looks. Still though Great LBs in Wagner & Wright but that secondary isn't great anymore. We'll see 2 "deep" shots imo. This should be a good test either way. We're going to see a lot of "shell" looks if we can't extend the field vertically. Teams will look to suffocate us more & more.
  • We should see Harry & 11 do some work. Really hope Gunna plays bc I'd love to see him involved in motion, sweeps/reverse, maybe even an option? Again we're going to have to expand the field so we going to need all the help we can get.


  • Expect to see Adams wrecking **** up front. He'll he hopping from gap to gap. Trying to fly down the los to make a play. Adams rushed the passer 10+ times. They don't have a great pass rush and I'm not worried about that anyway ...

  • They're first & second focus will be Cam/running game. I brought it up a few times last year when talking about the Ravens but expect to see them run a "tite/mint" front or something literally tight/reduced like 4i - Heavy 1 or 0 - Heavy 3T - 7 or 9 out wide. They're going to try to clog up the middle big time.

  • "Let Russ Cook" has been a phrase Seattle & Wilson fans have been shouting for a while now. They passed 30+ times last game and passed on 1st down a lot more than usual. Not the typical run, run, Wilson bails them out. They have weapons in DK, Lockett, Dissly, Olsen. Wilson was almost perfect inside the red zone. Him & DK are going to be a nightmare for guys haha


  • I never made a prediction in the other thread but think we're a 8-9 win team. Wildcard games (Games that will make/break our season imo) are Sea, Oak, Denver, Ari & Bills X2. If we can go 4-2 in these games, particularly the Bills games. We're in good shape. I guess you could throw LAR in there as well. 2-0 would be something but not the end of the world. That said this team is getting challenged early ... Sea, Oak, KC, Den, 49ers, Bills. That's a brutal stretch imo. We'll know what kind of team we are early on. Even though we know how this team changes throughout the year. The schedule isn't waiting. We're going to have to win some games early on to make a run.

  • It's so early in the year but doesn't this feel like we see a "trick" play type game to get more points on the board? Good thing about being a "running" is how we can use P/A, option etc to our advantage and teams still have to focus on stopping the run. I'm really hoping we see Harry/Gunna on the end of one of these plays. Give the young guys some confidence and take more weight off 11.

  • If Seattle does go heavy run to make a point how will we respond on the road this early? That's still something I'm interested in seeing. How this front handles a bully.
 

KontradictioN

Probably the nicest guy on the forum
PatsFans.com Supporter
Watching C's, waiting for A22 (still!) ... Some quick Seattle thoughts and other crumbs ...


  • Most likely just bc they played Atlanta but they played a decent amount of nickel last game. Usually a C3 Sky/Cloud or w/e variation they're running defense. They have a rep for bring straight forward but always had nasty playmakers. Still lots of disguise if they really want to dress things up. Not sure how much we'll see being week 2 for both teams.

  • Here's some clips of us running different C3

  • Remember Atlanta passed for like 450 yards but a lot was in prevent/soft looks. Still though Great LBs in Wagner & Wright but that secondary isn't great anymore. We'll see 2 "deep" shots imo. This should be a good test either way. We're going to see a lot of "shell" looks if we can't extend the field vertically. Teams will look to suffocate us more & more.
  • We should see Harry & 11 do some work. Really hope Gunna plays bc I'd love to see him involved in motion, sweeps/reverse, maybe even an option? Again we're going to have to expand the field so we going to need all the help we can get.


  • Expect to see Adams wrecking **** up front. He'll he hopping from gap to gap. Trying to fly down the los to make a play. Adams rushed the passer 10+ times. They don't have a great pass rush and I'm not worried about that anyway ...

  • They're first & second focus will be Cam/running game. I brought it up a few times last year when talking about the Ravens but expect to see them run a "tite/mint" front or something literally tight/reduced like 4i - Heavy 1 or 0 - Heavy 3T - 7 or 9 out wide. They're going to try to clog up the middle big time.

  • "Let Russ Cook" has been a phrase Seattle & Wilson fans have been shouting for a while now. They passed 30+ times last game and passed on 1st down a lot more than usual. Not the typical run, run, Wilson bails them out. They have weapons in DK, Lockett, Dissly, Olsen. Wilson was almost perfect inside the red zone. Him & DK are going to be a nightmare for guys haha


  • I never made a prediction in the other thread but think we're a 8-9 win team. Wildcard games (Games that will make/break our season imo) are Sea, Oak, Denver, Ari & Bills X2. If we can go 4-2 in these games, particularly the Bills games. We're in good shape. I guess you could throw LAR in there as well. 2-0 would be something but not the end of the world. That said this team is getting challenged early ... Sea, Oak, KC, Den, 49ers, Bills. That's a brutal stretch imo. We'll know what kind of team we are early on. Even though we know how this team changes throughout the year. The schedule isn't waiting. We're going to have to win some games early on to make a run.

  • It's so early in the year but doesn't this feel like we see a "trick" play type game to get more points on the board? Good thing about being a "running" is how we can use P/A, option etc to our advantage and teams still have to focus on stopping the run. I'm really hoping we see Harry/Gunna on the end of one of these plays. Give the young guys some confidence and take more weight off 11.

  • If Seattle does go heavy run to make a point how will we respond on the road this early? That's still something I'm interested in seeing. How this front handles a bully.
Nice write up, but Seattle plays variations of Cover-3 Sky and Buzz. Buzz would probably come when Edelman is in the game and White is not and Sky would be aimed on erasing White/Burkhead on obvious passing downs I would think.
 

XLIX

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
You’re absolutely right — and that’s what Orthwein’s threatening letter to the NFL basically told them. I know I mentioned the NFL didn’t want the Patriots to move, but I didn’t mean to imply they could stop it if it came down to it. Only that they were trying to work to prevent it from happening to the extent they could.
I agree with that too, but that’s a red herring. They didn’t want to lose a franchise in either market. Just a year later when the Rams did move, the NFL voted 21-3-6 against the move (per Wikipedia). Only after a lawsuit threat did they decide to give in.

Ultimately the only reason the Patriots didn’t move was Kraft and his persistence with the stadium lease. The NFL may have tried to stop a Kroenke move to St. Louis, but it probably would have ended the same way as the Rams move did.
I knew about Kraft with the lease (that story is well known of course).

I just have 250 pages left in my current book then I start The Dynasty. Looking forward to it!
 

XLIX

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Interesting tweet. I can't say I agree with their definition of garbage time (which they define as either team having an 80% or greater chance of winning).

Both the Lions and Eagles had moments where they had 90% chances of winning. So I guess that was garbage time, except that didn't work out so well for them, did it? The Lions game came down to the very last play, but he says almost half the game was "garbage time". Hell I can only imagine how much "garbage time" there was in Super Bowl 51.
 
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BaconGrundleCandy

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Nice write up, but Seattle plays variations of Cover-3 Sky and Buzz. Buzz would probably come when Edelman is in the game and White is not and Sky would be aimed on erasing White/Burkhead on obvious passing downs I would think.
Yea I didn't mention buzz but kinda what I said. They're mainly a buzz/sky team but have sprinkled in cloud against teams that could beat you deep. Again pretty straight forward but they obviously don't have those playmakers back end or corner.

For anyone wondering the general difference
Buzz = Hook/Shallow

Sky = Flat curl

I saw on Twitter a while back they actually use the same lingo to rotate S in buzz as Brady used to move the OL.

Rita = right inside

Linda = left inside

Sky is Roger/Lou

Regarding Edleman, it all depends where 11 is lining up, no? Generally agree If he's working inside.

Similar to us the match their coverage and pass together together at times and they just haven't been that scary lately. Base or sub they're not overwhelming anyone with scheme or talent. And lost their best rusher in Clowney.

We should be able to put up some points but will need the passing game to come through for a W imo. Although I'd be a believer in the defense in week 2 if we hold them to under 25 and win a close game 23 - 20 type deal.
 

captain stone

Pro Bowl Player
Here’s the story as per the book. Whether it’s 100% correct, i don’t know - Kraft is the source for a lot of this stuff.

Victor Kiam was in financial trouble, due to the stadium lease with Kraft and due to the boycotts resulting from the Lisa Olsen situation. Note that when he sold everything he made a huge amount of cash, so it wasn’t a long-term problem. It was a liquidity issue.

It was so bad the NFL stepped in, took care of short term issues, and worked to find a buyer. The NFL was thrilled to find Orthwein because of his deep pockets - they were desperate for stability in New England. The NFL did not want the franchise to move.

Orthwein desperately wanted a franchise back in St. Louis after the Cardinals left. But he didn’t want to actually be the owner himself. And he also didn’t want to move another team because he saw first hand how it hurt city pride. The NFL begged him to take on the Patriots. He thought it was a perfect way to achieve his goal — he was working behind the scenes to get the RCA dome built and to get an ownership group assembled because he knew the NFL planned to expand. The whole St. Louis Stallion stuff - that was supposed to be the expansion franchise name. He figured if he stepped in, bailed out the NFL and turned the Patriots around, they would reward the ownership group he organized with the expansion franchise. In his opening statement when he bought the team, he said he was just a caretaker owner to get the team on its feet, and he’d sell once he did that. According to the book, he meant it.

The hiring of Parcells and drafting of Bledsoe caused things to succeed beyond everyone’s wildest dreams. They noticed our reaction in New England, how we sold out, how our ratings spiked, how we were buying Patriots merchandise. “They” meaning not just the NFL but rich people. Orthwein still wasn’t making a lot of money - the Foxboro Stadium lease was a real albatross - but it was no longer deep red like Kiam. He started receiving large offers for the team in the spring/summer of 1993. He decided to sell at that point, and hired Goldman Sachs to do a blind auction. The expansion vote was coming up and he was ready to have that St. Louis expansion team. Procurement and due diligence takes a while, so the plan would be for the auction to conclude around the new year.

That’s when the bomb dropped, that the NFL owners preferred Jacksonville’s ownership and stadium situation to the one he assembled in St. Louis. They unanimously approved the Panthers franchise. Jacksonville was a 26-2 vote with Orthwein being in the minority.

He was pissed and felt betrayed. That was when he decided to spite the NFL and take the Pats to St. Louis. The NFL didn’t want that at all - the New England market was too huge to lose and had just shown how viable it was. He sent a threatening letter to the NFL. It’s implied that he wanted Goldman Sachs to skew the auction towards St. Louis ownership, specifically Stan Kroenke.

Ultimately Goldman kept asking Kraft for the value to get out of the lease, and Kraft refused because giving any dollar amount would allow the team to break the lease and pay monetary damages in court as compensation. Finally Kraft and Orthwein wound up meeting; Kroenke’s offer price was $25m higher than Kraft’s but it was contingent on Orthwein assuming all costs of getting out of the lease. Orthwein gave up and took his $70m in capital gains for owning the team for 2 years....
Big mistake the league made approving the Jacksonville franchise...It's been a mess for almost 25 years now...
 

captain stone

Pro Bowl Player
It's so early in the year but doesn't this feel like we see a "trick" play type game to get more points on the board? Good thing about being a "running" is how we can use P/A, option etc to our advantage and teams still have to focus on stopping the run. I'm really hoping we see Harry/Gunna on the end of one of these plays. Give the young guys some confidence and take more weight off 11.
They really have to, and it's not like they haven't run any trick plays recently either, starting with the Edelman-Amendola connection vs the
Murderer-Worshippers during the 2014 POs...I'll be surprised if they didn't try something similar on Sunday night...
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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They really have to, and it's not like they haven't run any trick plays recently either, starting with the Edelman-Amendola connection vs the
Murderer-Worshippers during the 2014 POs...I'll be surprised if they didn't try something similar on Sunday night...
We have to do a few things in the next 2-4 weeks.

Cam can't sustain 10+ runs a game imo. Since he got here I said 5-8 is a good number and think that's it if not a little lower. Something like 4-6. He's very effective but depending on the play/run he's going to take too much punishment. Forget hits just guys 250+ dragging on you, pulling you down wears on the body that is already a little beat up. Basically in big spots, high leverage points in the game.

I'm hoping we have a few games where he runs 0 times lol.

But yea we're going to have to score a few times this year that isn't conventional imo if we really want to get to 9-10 wins. Again those *wildcard* games I mentioned in another post and Seattle is one. This would be a huge win and one that might put us on the + side of the schedule?

Our focus was definitely attacking MOF in the passing game vs Mia. Simple but effective off the run game. Qe have to spread it more though, horizontal, vertical, we need to show we can open up the playbook/field. Or teams will just smoother us.
 
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