Content Post Words on things I watched, read & heard II

[Dingleberry]

Curious if you would trade our 1st + 3rd + 3rd or 1st + 2nd for the following ......

Tee Higgins

Brandon Aiyuk

Terry McLaurin

Michael Pittman

...

And obviously pay them.

The answer should be yes

Let's say Aiyuk or Higgins considering both might be an odd man out in terms of getting paid on their respective teams. Personally I'd rank them very closely. Something like Tee, Terry, Aiyuk and Pittman. Very little separating the top 3 (top 10-15 guys), all legit top 20-30 WRs.

Let's say Higgins. He's up in 2024. On a loaded team, loaded WR corp. It's not completely out of pocket. And again you obviously have to pay him but hes a proven player only getting better. 4/100.

Sign Kobi to a 3/23 - 23.5, would go to 24. I think that's very fair! It would be nice to reward our own guys and Kobi deserves it. Its not charity. He's a hell of a blocker, our 3rd down god, tough as ****, reliable and has Mac's trust.

Higgins with Meyers would easily be our best 1-2 in years. If Thornton hits we're set at WR for 3-5 years and all of a sudden have a dangerous group. Any of those guys provides immediate help though, especially outside/stretching the field/catch point/yac.

Let Agholor walk unless he wants to play for free. Decide on Bourne. I can only assume it's his route running (crazy considering how tight him and Mac were), maybe not a Patricia guy? Bc there's not a lot of reasons why he's not heavily involved after last year. That's another issue or maybe a real issue but have to decide on.

Higgins, Meyers, Thornton and maybe one of Bourne or Agholor isnt bad but we could do better?

If we want to walk away from Agholor and trade Bourne we could look at these guys in FA for reasonable money. Honestly I cant see any breaking the bank ...

Allen Lazard (big bully in the slot, can block and like Higgins, knows how to get open as a big man) would be the most expensive but shouldn't be getting crazy money. GB will have other needs and just drafted two WR. We would have a basketball team as a WR corp.
Kobi - 6'2, TT - 6'3, Tee - 6'4 and AL - 6'5. Big boys and all beside Thornton have shown they can get open consistently in the league. So the size is all pluses. I can't see him getting more than 11-12 million per but that might be a little redundant with Kobi. If we did, we'd have plenty of big bodies in the MOF.

Greg Dortch (has caught 37/42 rec, lots of speed even though his YR is low, he could prob be utilized a little better and returns kicks) would be very cheap money as a WR5.

Zach Pascal (top 5-10 blocker) again another cheap money deal.

I'd take a shot a Jamison Crowder for the right price.

And the draft if we feel like it ....

Take a shot in the middle, 4-7 RD ...

Ladd McConkey, Jayden Reed, Rakim Jarrett, Bru McCoy, Jacob Cowing, Tayvion Robinson, Jacob Copeland, Rome Odunze

Preferably a reliable quick hitter who can get open and create for themselves. Ladd, Reed, Jarrett, Cowing and Robinson all fit that profile. I think the others would fit in as well though.

This obviously doesn't solve the OL problem but this isn't top heavy class. So I wouldn't worry about losing our 1st for a tackle. We'll have 40+ million in FA $ with a few moves and we all they're coming. We'll still have our 2nd and two 4ths to play with in the draft.

I'm not married to the idea but I think it's clear this WR will look different next year and Mac needs as much help as possible in all areas. Not just OL play. Which is more important. Again just throwing this out there.

There looks to be 4-5 top 50 guys at tackle in the draft. I think Harrison will rise but he's a guy I'd take a shot at if he was in reach. Not all of Skor, Paris, Harrison, Johnson Jones X2 and Freeland will go in RD1 so we'll have a good chance at getting someone you can work with. Or use a 2nd and 4th to trade for a proven tackle.

Just throwing something out there. Not very Patriot-y but this team needs a real difference maker on offense. So much is riding on Thornton.

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

McLaurin would be my favorite of them all, but wouldn't be disappointed with any of them.

If not, pray that Thornton turns into what we hope he can be, and use several of those picks on OL.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Curious if you would trade our 1st + 3rd + 3rd or 1st + 2nd for the following ......

Tee Higgins

Brandon Aiyuk

Terry McLaurin

Michael Pittman

...

And obviously pay them.

The answer should be yes

Let's say Aiyuk or Higgins considering both might be an odd man out in terms of getting paid on their respective teams. Personally I'd rank them very closely. Something like Tee, Terry, Aiyuk and Pittman. Very little separating the top 3 (top 10-15 guys), all legit top 20-30 WRs.

Let's say Higgins. He's up in 2024. On a loaded team, loaded WR corp. It's not completely out of pocket. And again you obviously have to pay him but hes a proven player only getting better. 4/100.

Sign Kobi to a 3/23 - 23.5, would go to 24. I think that's very fair! It would be nice to reward our own guys and Kobi deserves it. Its not charity. He's a hell of a blocker, our 3rd down god, tough as ****, reliable and has Mac's trust.

Higgins with Meyers would easily be our best 1-2 in years. If Thornton hits we're set at WR for 3-5 years and all of a sudden have a dangerous group. Any of those guys provides immediate help though, especially outside/stretching the field/catch point/yac.

Let Agholor walk unless he wants to play for free. Decide on Bourne. I can only assume it's his route running (crazy considering how tight him and Mac were), maybe not a Patricia guy? Bc there's not a lot of reasons why he's not heavily involved after last year. That's another issue or maybe a real issue but have to decide on.

Higgins, Meyers, Thornton and maybe one of Bourne or Agholor isnt bad but we could do better?

If we want to walk away from Agholor and trade Bourne we could look at these guys in FA for reasonable money. Honestly I cant see any breaking the bank ...

Allen Lazard (big bully in the slot, can block and like Higgins, knows how to get open as a big man) would be the most expensive but shouldn't be getting crazy money. GB will have other needs and just drafted two WR. We would have a basketball team as a WR corp.
Kobi - 6'2, TT - 6'3, Tee - 6'4 and AL - 6'5. Big boys and all beside Thornton have shown they can get open consistently in the league. So the size is all pluses. I can't see him getting more than 11-12 million per but that might be a little redundant with Kobi. If we did, we'd have plenty of big bodies in the MOF.

Greg Dortch (has caught 37/42 rec, lots of speed even though his YR is low, he could prob be utilized a little better and returns kicks) would be very cheap money as a WR5.

Zach Pascal (top 5-10 blocker) again another cheap money deal.

I'd take a shot a Jamison Crowder for the right price.

And the draft if we feel like it ....

Take a shot in the middle, 4-7 RD ...

Ladd McConkey, Jayden Reed, Rakim Jarrett, Bru McCoy, Jacob Cowing, Tayvion Robinson, Jacob Copeland, Rome Odunze

Preferably a reliable quick hitter who can get open and create for themselves. Ladd, Reed, Jarrett, Cowing and Robinson all fit that profile. I think the others would fit in as well though.

This obviously doesn't solve the OL problem but this isn't top heavy class. So I wouldn't worry about losing our 1st for a tackle. We'll have 40+ million in FA $ with a few moves and we all they're coming. We'll still have our 2nd and two 4ths to play with in the draft.

I'm not married to the idea but I think it's clear this WR will look different next year and Mac needs as much help as possible in all areas. Not just OL play. Which is more important. Again just throwing this out there.

There looks to be 4-5 top 50 guys at tackle in the draft. I think Harrison will rise but he's a guy I'd take a shot at if he was in reach. Not all of Skor, Paris, Harrison, Johnson Jones X2 and Freeland will go in RD1 so we'll have a good chance at getting someone you can work with. Or use a 2nd and 4th to trade for a proven tackle.

Just throwing something out there. Not very Patriot-y but this team needs a real difference maker on offense. So much is riding on Thornton.

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

The Higgins idea is intriguing. Will an nfl team really have a $50 million QB, $30 million WR1 & a $25 million WR2? I’d say no. It makes sense that Higgins will eventually be traded if the bengals want any sort of team around Burrow IMO.

He fits the archetype of what they’ve been looking for since 2018 - Gordon, Harry & Parker are all big & physical outside WRs. I think he’s worth it. While I would’ve rathered AJ Brown Higgins has that type of upside.

The pats will need to acquire a #1 option at some point if they ever want to be an elite offense. They are only going to get one via trade or through the draft. Those players don’t reach FA obviously.

Higgins is in a unique situation where he could be available as he’s the WR2 on his own team.

An example of a pass catcher breakdown the team could explore:

Current

Henry 12.5 APY
Smith 12.5 APY
Agholor 11 APY
Parker 5.5 APY
Bourne 5 APY
Meyers 3.9 APY

Total 50.4 APY

Hypothetical

Higgins/WR1 25 APY
Meyers/WR2 13-15 APY
mid-level TE 7-10 APY
rookie deal WR
rookie deal WR

Total 50 APY

They can’t get rid of Smith next year so it would be inflated for a season. I’m all for acquiring a #1 option & drafting a WR almost every year though. I think Meyers’ market is higher since Russell Gage got 10 mil per last offseason.

 

[DaBruinz]

Curious if you would trade our 1st + 3rd + 3rd or 1st + 2nd for the following ......

Tee Higgins

Brandon Aiyuk

Terry McLaurin

Michael Pittman

...

And obviously pay them.

The answer should be yes

Let's say Aiyuk or Higgins considering both might be an odd man out in terms of getting paid on their respective teams. Personally I'd rank them very closely. Something like Tee, Terry, Aiyuk and Pittman. Very little separating the top 3 (top 10-15 guys), all legit top 20-30 WRs.

Let's say Higgins. He's up in 2024. On a loaded team, loaded WR corp. It's not completely out of pocket. And again you obviously have to pay him but hes a proven player only getting better. 4/100.

Sign Kobi to a 3/23 - 23.5, would go to 24. I think that's very fair! It would be nice to reward our own guys and Kobi deserves it. Its not charity. He's a hell of a blocker, our 3rd down god, tough as ****, reliable and has Mac's trust.

Higgins with Meyers would easily be our best 1-2 in years. If Thornton hits we're set at WR for 3-5 years and all of a sudden have a dangerous group. Any of those guys provides immediate help though, especially outside/stretching the field/catch point/yac.

Let Agholor walk unless he wants to play for free. Decide on Bourne. I can only assume it's his route running (crazy considering how tight him and Mac were), maybe not a Patricia guy? Bc there's not a lot of reasons why he's not heavily involved after last year. That's another issue or maybe a real issue but have to decide on.

Higgins, Meyers, Thornton and maybe one of Bourne or Agholor isnt bad but we could do better?

If we want to walk away from Agholor and trade Bourne we could look at these guys in FA for reasonable money. Honestly I cant see any breaking the bank ...

Allen Lazard (big bully in the slot, can block and like Higgins, knows how to get open as a big man) would be the most expensive but shouldn't be getting crazy money. GB will have other needs and just drafted two WR. We would have a basketball team as a WR corp.
Kobi - 6'2, TT - 6'3, Tee - 6'4 and AL - 6'5. Big boys and all beside Thornton have shown they can get open consistently in the league. So the size is all pluses. I can't see him getting more than 11-12 million per but that might be a little redundant with Kobi. If we did, we'd have plenty of big bodies in the MOF.

Greg Dortch (has caught 37/42 rec, lots of speed even though his YR is low, he could prob be utilized a little better and returns kicks) would be very cheap money as a WR5.

Zach Pascal (top 5-10 blocker) again another cheap money deal.

I'd take a shot a Jamison Crowder for the right price.

And the draft if we feel like it ....

Take a shot in the middle, 4-7 RD ...

Ladd McConkey, Jayden Reed, Rakim Jarrett, Bru McCoy, Jacob Cowing, Tayvion Robinson, Jacob Copeland, Rome Odunze

Preferably a reliable quick hitter who can get open and create for themselves. Ladd, Reed, Jarrett, Cowing and Robinson all fit that profile. I think the others would fit in as well though.

This obviously doesn't solve the OL problem but this isn't top heavy class. So I wouldn't worry about losing our 1st for a tackle. We'll have 40+ million in FA $ with a few moves and we all they're coming. We'll still have our 2nd and two 4ths to play with in the draft.

I'm not married to the idea but I think it's clear this WR will look different next year and Mac needs as much help as possible in all areas. Not just OL play. Which is more important. Again just throwing this out there.

There looks to be 4-5 top 50 guys at tackle in the draft. I think Harrison will rise but he's a guy I'd take a shot at if he was in reach. Not all of Skor, Paris, Harrison, Johnson Jones X2 and Freeland will go in RD1 so we'll have a good chance at getting someone you can work with. Or use a 2nd and 4th to trade for a proven tackle.

Just throwing something out there. Not very Patriot-y but this team needs a real difference maker on offense. So much is riding on Thornton.

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

I really like Tee Higgins. I think that he and Thornton would give the Patriots an excellent 1/2 punch at WR. Re-sign Jakobi.
If you re-sign Jakobi,. I don't see the Pats adding a Lazard or Dortch.

There are 3 BIGGER issues on offense right now, though. That is the QB, the O-LINE, and the Play-calling.

One only has to look at how Daniel Jones has progressed with Judge leaving to know that JUDGE is a huge issue when it comes to the QB. I wasn't sure, but it's clear that it was him and not D. Jones.

The O-line needs a RT. The O-line also needs a SWING Tackle. It's been far too long since the Pats had 3 OTs they could rely on. They're also going to need a LT after next year unless they kick Strange out there. There was a stretch of like 8 or 9 years where BB had 4OT s on the Roster because they'd have to use that many during the season.

What I'm saying is that until they fix the O-line, it's not going to matter who they have at QB or at WR because the QB isn't going to consistently have the time needed to make plays.

The team needs to seriously find the next Ashworth and Gorin. Two very under-rated players who blossomed on the PS and as reserves and were solid (not spectacular) when called up to start.

 

[DaBruinz]

Hmmm.... Wonder when @captain stone is going to start banging the drum to have this "fatty" signed..

 

[Kontradiction]

Curious if you would trade our 1st + 3rd + 3rd or 1st + 2nd for the following ......

Tee Higgins

Brandon Aiyuk

Terry McLaurin

Michael Pittman

...

And obviously pay them.

The answer should be yes

Let's say Aiyuk or Higgins considering both might be an odd man out in terms of getting paid on their respective teams. Personally I'd rank them very closely. Something like Tee, Terry, Aiyuk and Pittman. Very little separating the top 3 (top 10-15 guys), all legit top 20-30 WRs.

Let's say Higgins. He's up in 2024. On a loaded team, loaded WR corp. It's not completely out of pocket. And again you obviously have to pay him but hes a proven player only getting better. 4/100.

Sign Kobi to a 3/23 - 23.5, would go to 24. I think that's very fair! It would be nice to reward our own guys and Kobi deserves it. Its not charity. He's a hell of a blocker, our 3rd down god, tough as ****, reliable and has Mac's trust.

Higgins with Meyers would easily be our best 1-2 in years. If Thornton hits we're set at WR for 3-5 years and all of a sudden have a dangerous group. Any of those guys provides immediate help though, especially outside/stretching the field/catch point/yac.

Let Agholor walk unless he wants to play for free. Decide on Bourne. I can only assume it's his route running (crazy considering how tight him and Mac were), maybe not a Patricia guy? Bc there's not a lot of reasons why he's not heavily involved after last year. That's another issue or maybe a real issue but have to decide on.

Higgins, Meyers, Thornton and maybe one of Bourne or Agholor isnt bad but we could do better?

If we want to walk away from Agholor and trade Bourne we could look at these guys in FA for reasonable money. Honestly I cant see any breaking the bank ...

Allen Lazard (big bully in the slot, can block and like Higgins, knows how to get open as a big man) would be the most expensive but shouldn't be getting crazy money. GB will have other needs and just drafted two WR. We would have a basketball team as a WR corp.
Kobi - 6'2, TT - 6'3, Tee - 6'4 and AL - 6'5. Big boys and all beside Thornton have shown they can get open consistently in the league. So the size is all pluses. I can't see him getting more than 11-12 million per but that might be a little redundant with Kobi. If we did, we'd have plenty of big bodies in the MOF.

Greg Dortch (has caught 37/42 rec, lots of speed even though his YR is low, he could prob be utilized a little better and returns kicks) would be very cheap money as a WR5.

Zach Pascal (top 5-10 blocker) again another cheap money deal.

I'd take a shot a Jamison Crowder for the right price.

And the draft if we feel like it ....

Take a shot in the middle, 4-7 RD ...

Ladd McConkey, Jayden Reed, Rakim Jarrett, Bru McCoy, Jacob Cowing, Tayvion Robinson, Jacob Copeland, Rome Odunze

Preferably a reliable quick hitter who can get open and create for themselves. Ladd, Reed, Jarrett, Cowing and Robinson all fit that profile. I think the others would fit in as well though.

This obviously doesn't solve the OL problem but this isn't top heavy class. So I wouldn't worry about losing our 1st for a tackle. We'll have 40+ million in FA $ with a few moves and we all they're coming. We'll still have our 2nd and two 4ths to play with in the draft.

I'm not married to the idea but I think it's clear this WR will look different next year and Mac needs as much help as possible in all areas. Not just OL play. Which is more important. Again just throwing this out there.

There looks to be 4-5 top 50 guys at tackle in the draft. I think Harrison will rise but he's a guy I'd take a shot at if he was in reach. Not all of Skor, Paris, Harrison, Johnson Jones X2 and Freeland will go in RD1 so we'll have a good chance at getting someone you can work with. Or use a 2nd and 4th to trade for a proven tackle.

Just throwing something out there. Not very Patriot-y but this team needs a real difference maker on offense. So much is riding on Thornton.

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

Absolutely. My order of preference would be:

1. McLaurin
2. Higgins
3. Pittman
4. Aiyuk

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

McLaurin would be my favorite of them all, but wouldn't be disappointed with any of them.

If not, pray that Thornton turns into what we hope he can be, and use several of those picks on OL.

Agreed. Terry is the most complete, exactly what we need. Just can't see Washington giving him up for less than two 1st and would like to keep 2024 1st but yeah he would be option 1.

 

[DaBruinz]

Agreed. Terry is the most complete, exactly what we need. Just can't see Washington giving him up for less than two 1st and would like to keep 2024 1st but yeah he would be option 1.

Washington plans on keeping McLaurin. It's why they signed him to a big extension. They can't afford to eat the cap hit (22.4M) to trade him..

As for what compensation would be required. Here is what big names went for last year:

Marquise Brown & 3rd round pick for 1st round pick.
AJ Brown for a 1str and 3rd round pick.

Higgins would probably cost the same as AJ Brown or MORE because the Bengals have the cap space to keep him. Not to mention that Tyler Boyd turns 30 this off-season.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Absolutely. My order of preference would be:

1. McLaurin
2. Higgins
3. Pittman
4. Aiyuk

Can't argue with this and would be very happy if we landed Pittman.

Higgins never had more than 110 targets and has always hovered around 1k with 5 TD and 14 per rec.

Pittman is extremely similar. And like @patsinthesnow and others have mentioned. We definitely have a type (Harry, Gordon, Parker, Sanu, Lafell)

I'd be very excited if any of those guys landed here though.

 

[captain stone]

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

Ya!

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Curious if you would trade our 1st + 3rd + 3rd or 1st + 2nd for the following ......

Tee Higgins

Brandon Aiyuk

Terry McLaurin

Michael Pittman

...

And obviously pay them.

The answer should be yes

Let's say Aiyuk or Higgins considering both might be an odd man out in terms of getting paid on their respective teams. Personally I'd rank them very closely. Something like Tee, Terry, Aiyuk and Pittman. Very little separating the top 3 (top 10-15 guys), all legit top 20-30 WRs.

Let's say Higgins. He's up in 2024. On a loaded team, loaded WR corp. It's not completely out of pocket. And again you obviously have to pay him but hes a proven player only getting better. 4/100.

Sign Kobi to a 3/23 - 23.5, would go to 24. I think that's very fair! It would be nice to reward our own guys and Kobi deserves it. Its not charity. He's a hell of a blocker, our 3rd down god, tough as ****, reliable and has Mac's trust.

Higgins with Meyers would easily be our best 1-2 in years. If Thornton hits we're set at WR for 3-5 years and all of a sudden have a dangerous group. Any of those guys provides immediate help though, especially outside/stretching the field/catch point/yac.

Let Agholor walk unless he wants to play for free. Decide on Bourne. I can only assume it's his route running (crazy considering how tight him and Mac were), maybe not a Patricia guy? Bc there's not a lot of reasons why he's not heavily involved after last year. That's another issue or maybe a real issue but have to decide on.

Higgins, Meyers, Thornton and maybe one of Bourne or Agholor isnt bad but we could do better?

If we want to walk away from Agholor and trade Bourne we could look at these guys in FA for reasonable money. Honestly I cant see any breaking the bank ...

Allen Lazard (big bully in the slot, can block and like Higgins, knows how to get open as a big man) would be the most expensive but shouldn't be getting crazy money. GB will have other needs and just drafted two WR. We would have a basketball team as a WR corp.
Kobi - 6'2, TT - 6'3, Tee - 6'4 and AL - 6'5. Big boys and all beside Thornton have shown they can get open consistently in the league. So the size is all pluses. I can't see him getting more than 11-12 million per but that might be a little redundant with Kobi. If we did, we'd have plenty of big bodies in the MOF.

Greg Dortch (has caught 37/42 rec, lots of speed even though his YR is low, he could prob be utilized a little better and returns kicks) would be very cheap money as a WR5.

Zach Pascal (top 5-10 blocker) again another cheap money deal.

I'd take a shot a Jamison Crowder for the right price.

And the draft if we feel like it ....

Take a shot in the middle, 4-7 RD ...

Ladd McConkey, Jayden Reed, Rakim Jarrett, Bru McCoy, Jacob Cowing, Tayvion Robinson, Jacob Copeland, Rome Odunze

Preferably a reliable quick hitter who can get open and create for themselves. Ladd, Reed, Jarrett, Cowing and Robinson all fit that profile. I think the others would fit in as well though.

This obviously doesn't solve the OL problem but this isn't top heavy class. So I wouldn't worry about losing our 1st for a tackle. We'll have 40+ million in FA $ with a few moves and we all they're coming. We'll still have our 2nd and two 4ths to play with in the draft.

I'm not married to the idea but I think it's clear this WR will look different next year and Mac needs as much help as possible in all areas. Not just OL play. Which is more important. Again just throwing this out there.

There looks to be 4-5 top 50 guys at tackle in the draft. I think Harrison will rise but he's a guy I'd take a shot at if he was in reach. Not all of Skor, Paris, Harrison, Johnson Jones X2 and Freeland will go in RD1 so we'll have a good chance at getting someone you can work with. Or use a 2nd and 4th to trade for a proven tackle.

Just throwing something out there. Not very Patriot-y but this team needs a real difference maker on offense. So much is riding on Thornton.

@patsinthesnow @Kontradiction @long distance @dreighver @50-yard-line @captain stone @Ian @patfanken @Dingleberry

Ya or nah

Great post. I was not on the list, but I am a "Nah". Not that I don't want exactly what you note, I do, but I think you have the magnitude wrong. The most pressing issue is OT, not WR. We need two OTs in the draft (Brown and Cajuste are backups even if PatsFans thinks otherwise). I am hoping for 1st round and 3rd round (Panthers pick) being an OT. That might help solve the problem, we are pretty good at drafting OL. There is rarely a good OT in FA simply because they are critical - when a team finds a good one they do not let them go.

So do I want a WR trade for a 1st and 3rd round pick, or two new OTs? I want the OTs. I am a "Ya" and a "Nah", but in the end have to be a "Nah". Maybe that is why you did not ask me .

 

[DaBruinz]

Can't argue with this and would be very happy if we landed Pittman.

Higgins never had more than 110 targets and has always hovered around 1k with 5 TD and 14 per rec.

Pittman is extremely similar. And like @patsinthesnow and others have mentioned. We definitely have a type (Harry, Gordon, Parker, Sanu, Lafell)

I'd be very excited if any of those guys landed here though.

I wouldn't put Lafell and Parker in the same group as Harry, Gordon, and Sanu.

Fixing the Offense is at least a 2-step process. Fix the O-Line & Fix the coaches (ie CAN Patricia and Judge)

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I really like Tee Higgins. I think that he and Thornton would give the Patriots an excellent 1/2 punch at WR. Re-sign Jakobi.
If you re-sign Jakobi,. I don't see the Pats adding a Lazard or Dortch.

There are 3 BIGGER issues on offense right now, though. That is the QB, the O-LINE, and the Play-calling.

Agree.
Core dump:

The amount spent to date on the pass-catchers was spent to give Mac Jones "okay," if not brilliant, targets. Now we have biggish price tags at TE and apparently we don't have an offense that has them as first reads, and a QB tht can't get to his second read. Not big enough to sink the team, just not worth what was paid in terms of production. That goes back to the general offensive woes. Last season there weren't enough second-plus-read plays for two TEs to eat. Now there's not enough for one.

Mac Jones is either a ton worse or is fighting to survive in the Pats' present offense. He doesn't have enough time. Because predictability? Because defenses aren't neutralized by enough heaves downfield, as he bemoaned against Buffalo? (We actually do a lot of those...) Meh. Maybe, But then you get your 3-int. games.

Jones doesn't routinely have a ton of time in the pocket, and is something short of an assassin with the time he does have. That said, get him his 3 seconds and he can be formidable -- until you look at the red zone. It's like he cannot process the concept of a touchdown. Or the much-denigrated "Fat Matt" or I suppose "Pudgy Judgy" (if he would just oblige with some weight gain) cannot process the concept.

So yeah, this year's Mac Jones is "incomplete" without a good O line and open guys. and I'm finally going to provisionally agree with every mediot and adolescent fan in pimpledom, that I know the playcalling is just terrible, terrible I tell you. You can only hear it so much without jumping on the bandwagon.

He needs lots of time to get past one read, without getting intercepted and/or getting his guys decapitated. So we're back to not knowing what we've got, assuming things are working. Looked like he's an NFL QB last year. I'm not sure when and whether we get to see that guy again. I guess when we play the Vikings. Sort of.

Yes, the O-line needs talent.

No, the coaching staff hasn't fixed the red zone woes. I watch BB say every week we have to do a better job in the red zone. I accept that he isn't going to tell me just how he thinks that will happen, because that tells the other team too. But if you've said it every week for a year and nothing changes, clearly, much as I hate this take, something needs changing. I've resisted the "omg wtf kind of arrogance souffle is Bill cooking up on the coaching staff" read for this long, but I can't do it anymore.

Do we need to boot Mac Jones after two years, one of them very good? No. But the picture's less clear, not more, because of all the other candidates for "the problem."

I could imagine that he might have regressed to the point where he's not allowed in the deep end against better defenses, but if that's what we're doing, he clearly can be broken that way too. 7 TD and 7 int,? Come on . Turnovers suck azz but if the other team can rely on scoring 7s while we score 3s... ?

In the "Zero Identity" thread, I did say we've had an identity (beyond Brady) for years -- we were the team that always found a way to beat you. If suddenly Brady sputters, something else would kick in, and you could count on it. Now it's the same, minus the finding a way to win. Theoretically we should be able to morph into the team that gives you fits any given Sunday. So much for theory.

So I'm doing a provisional 180 because it all looks so clear right now. Get real offensive coaches. Make Mac have more protection. Have a guy shouting "BE BETTER" in his face, because apparently he needs to be coached like in pee wee ball. Get Coach Boone to threaten to break off his foot in his John Brown behind, I don't care.

Give him more talent on the O-line, and yes, that one takes an off-season, realistically speaking.

We're 6-6 for God's sake, How much worse can we be?

There's the rub. Exactly 6 games worse, at this point of the season.

I ditched my "In BB I trust" floatie (to continue, albeit ineptly and shambolically, the pool metaphor from that "deep end/shallow end" sentence.)

But consider YOUR Super Bowl Champion Los Angeles Rams, they of the 3-9 record. They win not, nor do they impress. Consider innumerable other teams after a good year or two or a good 5 years.

Consider that 6-6 might also be how it looks when you're holding it together and might otherwise be 3-9.

But also, consider the apparent lack of urgency -- and it IS apparent, what with the September off-season while everybody else is in regular season. Consider the weird apparent feudal succession plan with BB's Cronenburg son. Consider the Fortress of the Trusted Coaches approach to a staff. Yeah, BB put a good product on the field for 20 years. My "hawt take" brain has had it. If you do crazy unconventional stuff, and all you do is win, fine. But do it and lose? Um, I can get someone to lose for almost free. You cost too much to lose.

Okay, I'll be better in a few more wins, if we're planning on having some more of those

Cards, Raiders, Bengals, Dolphins, Bills. These next two games better be Ws because the last 3 are going to be playoff-bound teams with something to play for, and just about everybody has a mobile QB. Time to bust out the secret "mobile QB neutralizer" package and earn your bones on the D side of the ball, BB.

/core dump

This is not the way. I have spoken.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Great post. I was not on the list, but I am a "Nah". Not that I don't want exactly what you note, I do, but I think you have the magnitude wrong. The most pressing issue is OT, not WR. We need two OTs in the draft (Brown and Cajuste are backups even if PatsFans thinks otherwise). I am hoping for 1st round and 3rd round (Panthers pick) being an OT. That might help solve the problem, we are pretty good at drafting OL. There is rarely a good OT in FA simply because they are critical - when a team finds a good one they do not let them go.

So do I want a WR trade for a 1st and 3rd round pick, or two new OTs? I want the OTs. I am a "Ya" and a "Nah", but in the end have to be a "Nah". Maybe that is why you did not ask me .

I really like Tee Higgins. I think that he and Thornton would give the Patriots an excellent 1/2 punch at WR. Re-sign Jakobi.
If you re-sign Jakobi,. I don't see the Pats adding a Lazard or Dortch.

There are 3 BIGGER issues on offense right now, though. That is the QB, the O-LINE, and the Play-calling.

One only has to look at how Daniel Jones has progressed with Judge leaving to know that JUDGE is a huge issue when it comes to the QB. I wasn't sure, but it's clear that it was him and not D. Jones.

The O-line needs a RT. The O-line also needs a SWING Tackle. It's been far too long since the Pats had 3 OTs they could rely on. They're also going to need a LT after next year unless they kick Strange out there. There was a stretch of like 8 or 9 years where BB had 4OT s on the Roster because they'd have to use that many during the season.

What I'm saying is that until they fix the O-line, it's not going to matter who they have at QB or at WR because the QB isn't going to consistently have the time needed to make plays.

The team needs to seriously find the next Ashworth and Gorin. Two very under-rated players who blossomed on the PS and as reserves and were solid (not spectacular) when called up to start.

I knew I'd get a few of these post and I want to say, I absolutely agree. The OL is priority #1!

It's priority #1 and the main reason the offense sucks. 98% Mac isn't going anywhere. Patricia and Judge probably should but make no mistake the OL is culprit numero uno.

A combination of regression (mainly Wynn, Brown a little bit), injuries, lack of depth and Strange not stepping up like we needed him too. We can all agree, especially if you're watching film after the game. This offense just never clicked or looked right. There were spurts here and there but no true identity as @long distance put it.

W 1-3 / Run blocking was good. Mac was throwing deep. Not taking sacks. Offense didnt look like a machine but some growing pains were expecting. Good a-dot.

QB go' round starts. Offense looks good against terrible defenses.

Middle to present we're full on mash mode at OL. Mac has taken some bad sacks but cut down. Couple bad INT in there. Bottom 5 a-dot for a decent period and not throwing deep for obvious reasons.

It all started with the OL - Andrews, Wynn, Brown and the lack of depth that's been growing in recent years really caught up.

Sure, we absolutely could and should upgrade from Judge and Patricia but we would really be in MUCH better shape if this OL played up to par. Even with the coaches and all those struggles.

But I agree the OL is the main fix. The problem is, it's a big fix. Long-term we probably need two new tackles unless they want to run it back with Wynn and Brown? Maybe switch positions again, idk but that could be a tough sell and Wynn just might want out. Again big fix anyway you slice it even if you kick out the two guards.

So we agree there but theres other problems and things don't often play out in a straight line.

This team has struggled mightily to aquire talent at the WR position recently and has a type. We love HWS guys (Gordon, Harry, Parker, Lafell, Sanu) tough guys at the catch point that bring other qualities to the table.

We haven't had tremendous success through the draft. The thought of bringing in a young guy and schooling him up to be an impact player is another tough sell. Especially after drafting Thornton. Who should definitely be getting more touches but it is what it is on that front. The history isn't good and it's clear Mac needs a legit #1. Actually this offense could use a #1 bc of the lack of consistency.

So look your options are ...
A) Spending a 1st anyway on a guy like Q who you'll have to trade up for bc this years class isn't top heavy at all. You're spending the same draft capital and spending a good bit even on a rookie contract.

B)WR FA class is NOT pretty.

C)The tackle position has definitely taken a step back . OL in general has as you'd expect after recent years but there's definitely a few guys I really like for us with good value. Bergeron, Harrison B Jones, Freeland, Kirkland. So I actually like the prospect of finding one of those guys with our 2nd and 3rd. If in this scenario we spend a 1st, 3rd and 4th on a guy like Higgins. We still have other picks and we have a few resources (Harris, Zappe ). Not many but a few.

TLDR
Yea the OL absolutely has to get fixed but there's more than one path to get where you're going. I'm not married to the idea. Im open to something like this for the OL. Just trying to think of realistic options bc this next year is as big as it gets for Bill and the short-term future of this franchise.

*edit*
Also @One-If-By-Sea don't feel bad about the @. I like to keep my enemies close and just wanted to make sure joker and Ken dusty asses were alive.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I knew I'd get a few of these post and I want to say, I absolutely agree. The OL is priority #1!

It's priority #1 and the main reason the offense sucks. 98% Mac isn't going anywhere. Patricia and Judge probably should but make no mistake the OL is culprit numero uno.

A combination of regression (mainly Wynn, Brown a little bit), injuries, lack of depth and Strange not stepping up like we needed him too. We can all agree, especially if you're watching film after the game. This offense just never clicked or looked right. There were spurts here and there but no true identity as @long distance put it.

W 1-3 / Run blocking was good. Mac was throwing deep. Not taking sacks. Offense didnt look like a machine but some growing pains were expecting. Good a-dot.

QB go' round starts. Offense looks good against terrible defenses.

Middle to present we're full on mash mode at OL. Mac has taken some bad sacks but cut down. Couple bad INT in there. Bottom 5 a-dot for a decent period and not throwing deep for obvious reasons.

It all started with the OL - Andrews, Wynn, Brown and the lack of depth that's been growing in recent years really caught up.

Sure, we absolutely could and should upgrade from Judge and Patricia but we would really be in MUCH better shape if this OL played up to par. Even with the coaches and all those struggles.

But I agree the OL is the main fix. The problem is, it's a big fix. Long-term we probably need two new tackles unless they want to run it back with Wynn and Brown? Maybe switch positions again, idk but that could be a tough sell and Wynn just might want out. Again big fix anyway you slice it even if you kick out the two guards.

So we agree there but theres other problems and things don't often play out in a straight line.

This team has struggled mightily to aquire talent at the WR position recently and has a type. We love HWS guys (Gordon, Harry, Parker, Lafell, Sanu) tough guys at the catch point that bring other qualities to the table.

We haven't had tremendous success through the draft. The thought of bringing in a young guy and schooling him up to be an impact player is another tough sell. Especially after drafting Thornton. Who should definitely be getting more touches but it is what it is on that front. The history isn't good and it's clear Mac needs a legit #1. Actually this offense could use a #1 bc of the lack of consistency.

So look your options are ...
A) Spending a 1st anyway on a guy like Q who you'll have to trade up for bc this years class isn't top heavy at all. You're spending the same draft capital and spending a good bit even on a rookie contract.

B)WR FA class is NOT pretty.

C)The tackle position has definitely taken a step back . OL in general has as you'd expect after recent years but there's definitely a few guys I really like for us with good value. Bergeron, Harrison B Jones, Freeland, Kirkland. So I actually like the prospect of finding one of those guys with our 2nd and 3rd. If in this scenario we spend a 1st, 3rd and 4th on a guy like Higgins. We still have other picks and we have a few resources (Harris, Zappe ). Not many but a few.

TLDR
Yea the OL absolutely has to get fixed but there's more than one path to get where you're going. I'm not married to the idea. Im open to something like this for the OL. Just trying to think of realistic options bc this next year is as big as it gets for Bill and the short-term future of this franchise.

*edit*
Also @One-If-By-Sea don't feel bad about the @. I like to keep my enemies close and just wanted to make sure joker and Ken dusty asses were alive.

Thanks for the long post. It is great to hear from you - the most knowledgeable poster on the site IMO. I do not care about the @, it was better that you left me off the list so I could bust your chops.

I think Wynn is toast. Maybe he is better somewhere else. I assume you saw the Jermaine Eluemenor story - admitting he was not really committed while in New England. Wynn feels like the same thing. I think we have to move on. Brown has been "on again, off again" throughout his career - that seems like a backup to me. I count Wynn and Brown out or a backup in 2023. We desperately need two new OTs, to pair with Strange (I think Strange has been great as a rookie - remember he is a rookie - welcome to the NFL) and Onwenu. Maybe the 7th round kid from MI does something, but a wise man has to assume he is PS material. So we need two new OTs, I assume we agree on that.

There is not a lot of value in OTs in FA in 2023. I assume we can agree on that too. Maybe BB can find a backup guy to use as a RT, but that is questionable - he did find Brown. So we need two OTs in the 2023 draft and that is where BaconGrundle comes in. We have four draft picks in the first three rounds. Can you do a comparison of the WR trade post you already did versus two OT draft choices in the first three rounds? You previously proposed trading a 1st and 3rd for a WR. Now propose a 1st and 3rd round OT prospect we could pick instead of trading those two picks for a WR. What are the chances the OTs are any good? Is it a strong OT class? Are we better off with two OT draft picks or one WR?

I think we have to stay the course and pick OT, WR, OT, and FS, OR OT, FS, OT and WR. Trading a 1st and 3rd for a WR is like playing fantasy football IMO (but it just happened for AJ Brown so it is realistic - haha). What about drafting two OTs? Who could we get? Is it a strong class?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Thanks for the long post. It is great to hear from you - the most knowledgeable poster on the site IMO. I do not care about the @, it was better that you left me off the list so I could bust your chops.

I think Wynn is toast. Maybe he is better somewhere else. I assume you saw the Jermaine Eluemenor story - admitting he was not really committed while in New England. Wynn feels like the same thing. I think we have to move on. Brown has been "on again, off again" throughout his career - that seems like a backup to me. I count Wynn and Brown out or a backup in 2023. We desperately need two new OTs, to pair with Strange (I think Strange has been great as a rookie - remember he is a rookie - welcome to the NFL) and Onwenu. Maybe the 7th round kid from MI does something, but a wise man has to assume he is PS material. So we need two new OTs, I assume we agree on that.

There is not a lot of value in OTs in FA in 2023. I assume we can agree on that too. Maybe BB can find a backup guy to use as a RT, but that is questionable - he did find Brown. So we need two OTs in the 2023 draft and that is where BaconGrundle comes in. We have four draft picks in the first three rounds. Can you do a comparison of the WR trade post you already did versus two OT draft choices in the first three rounds? You previously proposed trading a 1st and 3rd for a WR. Now propose a 1st and 3rd round OT prospect we could pick instead of trading those two picks for a WR. What are the chances the OTs are any good? Is it a strong OT class? Are we better off with two OT draft picks or one WR?

I think we have to stay the course and pick OT, WR, OT, and FS, OR OT, FS, OT and WR. Trading a 1st and 3rd for a WR is like playing fantasy football IMO (but it just happened for AJ Brown so it is realistic - haha). What about drafting two OTs? Who could we get? Is it a strong class?

I was just talking specifically about tackles with someone I respect a lot. We both seem to be slightly higher than consensus on that position but agree that while not as top heavy it could be deeper than recent years past. Part of the reason I wouldn't mind waiting a little and we've scouted and developed that group in years past.

I'd have it something like this. I'm not adding what I really value them at but this is a rough list. I think I maybe higher on the top 3 then consensus. And remember Wright will probably go OT1 so we could have a good shot at Harrison or Jones in the 2nd RD. Maybe look at Freeland or Kirkland in the 4th. That would still work under my crazy fantasy trade

Matthew Bergeron

Peter Skoronski

Anton Harrison

Broderick Jones

Zion Johnson

Paris Johnson

Blake Freeland

Jaxson Kirkland

I'd really have to grade them before saying I'm comfortable going RD1 on the top 3-4. Actually halfway through defense. So I'm getting there but that's a good rough list of how I see it.

If we got Higgins for a 1st and 3rd. Bergeron, Harrison, Jones or Johnson in the 2nd. Plus one of Freeland, Kirkland, Johnson later I'd be a very happy guy. IF I had two draft two tackles like you asked mi amigo.

 

[captain stone]

Regarding the OTs, 2 brand new Starting-Caliber ones, including at least one LT, AND a Center of the Future are the MINIMUM that's required here.

Lose/Lose is gone for good after the season ends, and that's a win/win... What a massive disappointment, and mis-used as a LT.

Trent Brown is also Finished as a starting LT; next year he'll be either our starting RT, our Swing Tackle, or unemployed.

Cannonfodder, McDermott & Stubby are Nothing to me; Cachoo might be a minimum-wager but only if he shows something going forward, which would include actually being on the field instead of the trainer's room...

Chasin' 'Hinds needs to re-learn the Center position; otherwise he's just a guy.

Cody Russey might be a decent backup C/G, but I'd rather not just ass-ume he will be... That's why I want my Center of the Future to be an honest-to-goodness Draft Pick this time.

Thanksdad isn't an NFL player. Period.

And those things on the practice squad? ****ing Jokes.

So out of all of these offensive Linemen under contract, there are 7 - tops - that I even want to see here next year: Andrews, Big Mike, Strange69, Brown, Cachoo (maybe), 'Hinds & Russey.

Rebuilding this offensive OL into a replacement-level unit in one offseason is certainly daunting, but not impossible... Just look at the KC Queefs, courtesy of the GB Packers & especially our own NEP... If we can add those two new Tackles & the C of the F to the above 7, then we might be onto something... Provided of course that we have a FO capable of finding these 3 new players, and a coaching staff capable of getting the best from them and forming everyone into a well-oiled machine; but that's an entirely new subject in and of itself...

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

I just want to throw in there the CB position in the draft. This class has exactly the guys who would be great complements to jack jones on the outside cb position. Bigger cb with length to cover bigger WR. Joey porter or Christian gonzalez are guys I would strongly consider in the first round although i like the idea of an first round OT to boost the trenches as well as an additionally mid round OT because I think we need a new LT and RT. If we want to try to implement the zone stuff next season we could use a change on the o-line because brown is simply not performing that well and not really well suited for this zone blocking. There were several outside zone runs which were stuffed on then los because our tackles couldn’t get out there quickly enough. I think broderick jones or paris johnson or Skoronski are athletic tackles with good size to be starting tackles in the nfl. The OT in this class at the top may not be as pro ready Tackles like the years before but draft includes projection and you gotta go with the potential of drafting your starting LT. Especialy these tackles could work well on the left side with strange as both are athletic for their size
This requires some proper coaching which I think needs a real o-line coach and not Patricia.

 

[UrbanCowboy]

Are we "close enough" to start trading picks? I think we are still in building mode and should be hoarding them. Guess it depends on how far away we think we are.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

maybe worth to take a shot between rd. 3-5, i would like to add at least one WR via draft, we need to take as much shots as possible, the late rd selections are shots in the dark anyway so the should be used for skill position players imo

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Are we "close enough" to start trading picks? I think we are still in building mode and should be hoarding them. Guess it depends on how far away we think we are.

Nope but next year is as big as it gets for Bill, Mac and the overall direction of the team. Almost half a decade after Brady leaving. Year 3 for Mac.

I thought last year was about seeing what we have in Mac, the new guys and where players like DMC, HT were at. This year was supposed to be about who's making a jump. Who's worth keeping. Next year is about putting together a championship team. Plenty of picks and money to spend.

So I wouldn't be shocked to see us make a few moves for Bill's last stand.