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This has an opening post with good commentary and information, which we definitely recommend reading.

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I thought that UConn alum Fatukasi was the best remaining DT in the 2018 draft after Tim Settle was taken by the 'Skins at #163... I kinda wish now that Billy & Little Nicky had taken a longer look at him instead of a 2nd consecutive LB, Christian Sam...
Maybe this year the look close for the UConn NT Travis Jones :D
 

BTTA

He/Him
PatsFans.com Supporter
They need to do anything to find a young succesor who can learn from brady as much as possible. And they need to keep their offense scheme with more runs, Play-Action, short Passes and not return to the 5000 yards 30 TD 30 Int stats no riskitnobuscuit amirite

There are posters here who rate Mac Jones as a 5/6, so perhaps they should look into giving the Pats a 4th rounder for him.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Justin Fields has a 6.1% in big time throw rate which is fifth in qb and has a 1.4 % turnover worthy play rate when dropback in a clean pocket which is also fifth among qb
Just something to look at after many said great that we did not draft him
If I am a bears fan I would be exciting with new coaching staff and maybe better o line pass catchers and play calling


Read it on pff, can’t post the url on my phone currently
 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
@Tunescribe @50-yard-line and others this is what I was talking about. Sorry been busy and falling asleep almost any time I hit the bed. Nothing ground breaking but scheme & talent are at a crossroads of sorts imo. We definitely need an upgrade at 0/NT and another 5T.

The Pats are multiple and obviously do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. I just wanted to take a look at few things we run, ask of our players and what's needed to succeed in that scheme.

Feel free to add or bring up something I haven't that you want to talk about.

Defense - old school / new school - Odd / single high

DL / IDL
- To me, this group needs a lot of attention going forward. I think there's a good case for priority #1 in either FA, the draft or even a trade going forward for a few different reasons.Talent and scheme, as they often are. Are really tied together here imho. We've always used an okie front but the task and talent is causing execution to suffer. Okie and Tite are similar, we and others use both as "go-to's" at times to stop the run. Okie = outside the tackles shoulders (below) and Tite = inside the tackles shoulders. They're ways to stop the run while giving up a little pass rush.

DL_WK10_8.gif

DL_WK10_9.gif

In okie (above) 505 we'll usually play contain / 2 gap with one DT while slanting or rushing the other inside or outside the tackle. Same for the OLB, usually contain and rush. NT will two gap or be reading the backfield. LB's take on the G's / pullers while we have a Saf rotate down. For the most part, almost everything has a variation. It's @patfanken old old school and a tough ask. We're like top 3-5 playing in an odd front with single high. Not many teams are playing an odd front with single for volume.

The problem(s), for starters, is our IDL - across the board aren't holding up.
Certain players always get singled out, its inevitable but that's why the A22 is great even though it's a **** product to watch. Honestly our whole IDL was inconsistent all year but at least we know Barmore is trending up. We couldn't beat combo blocks, got washed against zone - guys got turned around way too easy against zone runs and couldn't recover. Besides Barmore none have a big tackle radius.

I mentioned this in my other post and I could be off but I definitely feel like I notice something against certain types of teams. It's not black and white. We don't win against this type and lose against another. It's not that simple and I could be wrong. We tend to handle and excel against certain types, maybe smaller OL's, teams that run spread (Falcons, Chargers, Jete)? And have been struggling against more bully types. Ones that are used to setting a tone, making it a fight. You'll tend to struggle more against better comp, more physical teams but thought I'd bring it up in any case if anyone else had a similar thought. Again not black & white it's not an every time thing. And I could be wrong but I think it speaks to the DL / IDL a little bit.

Let's take the Tennessee game for example. We played base almost half the snaps. Like 45% that game give or take. And we still had backups running for 200+ yards when we put our big boys up front in okie. Sure some things are like a barter system - give & take but again we obviously put all our run stoppers out there and played base almost half the game. Can't ignore the obvious there.

One of the problems, again imo is playing teams that have a real identity in certain areas. Tough physical teams that run and excel at running duo or inside zone will double our 0 and 5T and it's a downhill battle after that bc we simply don't have guys that can consistently beat combo blocks / double teams. Again this goes back to scheme & talent in some regards. We're asking guys who can't consistently beat doubles to do so often. Guy, God & Davis aren't bad players. They're really not, they're average players that teeter on that cusp going a little over and under. They're just not tier 1 or 2 types and not guys you'd see starting on a SB roster right now. Solid players that contribute but you're asking backups to be features and the foundation on a very tough defense.

Davis is inconsistent when asked to 2 gap. Gets moved a little bit too much out his lane but is serviceable. Gets washed on occasion when he tries to come off his block. Same with God and Guy. Both get turned around too easy. And all three have trouble moving laterally while trying to shed blocks. That's when you'll see them get walled off. Again none besides CB have any real tackling radius.
Barmore has been fantastic for a rookie but definitely can improve his tackling a bit. He can move very well. It actually was a plus in college but is very noticeable now. He seemed to miss some easy ones. He's been great though so I don't want to be to harsh on a rookie. He's like the one guy we have that knows how to beat doubles. Can rush half man. Our most complete IDL even if he's still putting everything together. It's all there for him. Get him a little stronger, hope he stays on the right track and we have a pro bowl player.

Whether we're in 335, 236, 245. Two down linemen or three, we absolutely have to get help beside Barmore. If this is what we're going to keep asking of our players and I don't see that changing considering we've ran it for so long. We need a real rock up front that can reset the los and eat doubles with ease. Right now we're simply asking too much of backups in a physical system that is quite unforgivable. I'll wait on the FA talk for now, I know @long distance has a thread on it. I believe B Williams, L Joesph, Suh and a few decent options might be available but again I won't get too much into that here rn. We definitely need a real 0/1T and 5T if we want to dominate the DL again in the okie, tite, odd front. We're hurting and it should be a priority.

I'll bring up just a few names from college since that's my expertise and we need to hit on another draft.

Jordan Davis, who you'll pay a premium for. Is a monster at 6'6/350 with length and knows how to use it. He'll never be a consistent pass rusher but has plus play strength, grip strength and flexibility for a dude his size. He can move and has light feet. Great job at utilizing his length. Benches players off him win ease. He won't be overwhelmed by anything "physical" in the NFL. Surprisingly flexibility, nimble with good lateral movements for his size not great but good. He's like your top fighter you send out in a group fight to intimidate the other side. Has some position flexibility as well esp for us and what we do. Powerful hands. Very rarely moved back. Inconsistent but very nice first step for his size. Super intriguing for us. Made a huge jump from 3rd round to potential top 20 pick.


Travis Jones is a kid I've had my eye for a few years. Local guy. Excels against the run. Resetting the line. Head and eyes are always up. Seems to know what type of run is coming and heads that way before others. Smooth fluid movements doesn't look stiff moving around at all. Plus anchor / base and lower half strength. Both of these guys should help immediately against the run and might be 1-2 for 0/1T in the draft.

For 4i/5T
I think Logan Hall is super intriguing for us. He's like 6'6/290 definitely could add on some weight. Tone setter that likes a fight. Violent active hands. Big time anchor. Plus block recognition. I think he'd be a great project for Bill. Eventually 4i/5T. 2nd round value imo.

Lined up at 3T

Love this rush here. Again lined up inside shows up some athleticism. Nice hand work. Gets inside placement, disengages and uses a club swim to finish.


I think Demarvin Leal would be quite the get. He still has to develop some and get a little stronger to hit his true potential but he's freaky dude we could play him anywhere if he hits. Mainly 6-3-5T in college and I see the same in the pros. He's an animal that gave Evan Neal all he could handle. Explosive. Incredible movement skills at 6'4/290. Late 1st - 2nd


Look at the hesi shake. Nice little chop before the spin.

Phidarian Mathis is another guy I could see in the part. Plus run defender that was a natural at holding his ground / resetting while keeping his eyes in the backfield. Seems to know what's coming at him. Has a long way to go before he's pressuring the QB next level but definitely fills a few needs and has some versatility. 3rd-4th round

Travon Walker is another guy that just screams 3/4/5T for us. Has a lot of God's attributes for defending the run. Plus play strength upper & lower. Violent hands. Smart and uses good technique against the run. Better movement skills than Mathis. 3rd round

Also mention these guys as
Jayden Peevey
Zach Carter
Eyioma Uwazurike

@Kontradiction @patsfanfromoversea @Username @patsinthesnow
Anyone else have any favorites for these roles? Feel free to jump in.
 

Mike the Brit

Minuteman Target
PatsFans.com Supporter
@Tunescribe @50-yard-line and others this is what I was talking about. Sorry been busy and falling asleep almost any time I hit the bed. Nothing ground breaking but scheme & talent are at a crossroads of sorts imo. We definitely need an upgrade at 0/NT and another 5T.

The Pats are multiple and obviously do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. I just wanted to take a look at few things we run, ask of our players and what's needed to succeed in that scheme.

Feel free to add or bring up something I haven't that you want to talk about.

Defense - old school / new school - Odd / single high

DL / IDL
- To me, this group needs a lot of attention going forward. I think there's a good case for priority #1 in either FA, the draft or even a trade going forward for a few different reasons.Talent and scheme, as they often are. Are really tied together here imho. We've always used an okie front but the task and talent is causing execution to suffer. Okie and Tite are similar, we and others use both as "go-to's" at times to stop the run. Okie = outside the tackles shoulders (below) and Tite = inside the tackles shoulders. They're ways to stop the run while giving up a little pass rush.

View attachment 40180

View attachment 40181

In okie (above) 505 we'll usually play contain / 2 gap with one DT while slanting or rushing the other inside or outside the tackle. Same for the OLB, usually contain and rush. NT will two gap or be reading the backfield. LB's take on the G's / pullers while we have a Saf rotate down. For the most part, almost everything has a variation. It's @patfanken old old school and a tough ask. We're like top 3-5 playing in an odd front with single high. Not many teams are playing an odd front with single for volume.

The problem(s), for starters, is our IDL - across the board aren't holding up.
Certain players always get singled out, its inevitable but that's why the A22 is great even though it's a **** product to watch. Honestly our whole IDL was inconsistent all year but at least we know Barmore is trending up. We couldn't beat combo blocks, got washed against zone - guys got turned around way too easy against zone runs and couldn't recover. Besides Barmore none have a big tackle radius.

I mentioned this in my other post and I could be off but I definitely feel like I notice something against certain types of teams. It's not black and white. We don't win against this type and lose against another. It's not that simple and I could be wrong. We tend to handle and excel against certain types, maybe smaller OL's, teams that run spread (Falcons, Chargers, Jete)? And have been struggling against more bully types. Ones that are used to setting a tone, making it a fight. You'll tend to struggle more against better comp, more physical teams but thought I'd bring it up in any case if anyone else had a similar thought. Again not black & white it's not an every time thing. And I could be wrong but I think it speaks to the DL / IDL a little bit.

Let's take the Tennessee game for example. We played base almost half the snaps. Like 45% that game give or take. And we still had backups running for 200+ yards when we put our big boys up front in okie. Sure some things are like a barter system - give & take but again we obviously put all our run stoppers out there and played base almost half the game. Can't ignore the obvious there.

One of the problems, again imo is playing teams that have a real identity in certain areas. Tough physical teams that run and excel at running duo or inside zone will double our 0 and 5T and it's a downhill battle after that bc we simply don't have guys that can consistently beat combo blocks / double teams. Again this goes back to scheme & talent in some regards. We're asking guys who can't consistently beat doubles to do so often. Guy, God & Davis aren't bad players. They're really not, they're average players that teeter on that cusp going a little over and under. They're just not tier 1 or 2 types and not guys you'd see starting on a SB roster right now. Solid players that contribute but you're asking backups to be features and the foundation on a very tough defense.

Davis is inconsistent when asked to 2 gap. Gets moved a little bit too much out his lane but is serviceable. Gets washed on occasion when he tries to come off his block. Same with God and Guy. Both get turned around too easy. And all three have trouble moving laterally while trying to shed blocks. That's when you'll see them get walled off. Again none besides CB have any real tackling radius.
Barmore has been fantastic for a rookie but definitely can improve his tackling a bit. He can move very well. It actually was a plus in college but is very noticeable now. He seemed to miss some easy ones. He's been great though so I don't want to be to harsh on a rookie. He's like the one guy we have that knows how to beat doubles. Can rush half man. Our most complete IDL even if he's still putting everything together. It's all there for him. Get him a little stronger, hope he stays on the right track and we have a pro bowl player.

Whether we're in 335, 236, 245. Two down linemen or three, we absolutely have to get help beside Barmore. If this is what we're going to keep asking of our players and I don't see that changing considering we've ran it for so long. We need a real rock up front that can reset the los and eat doubles with ease. Right now we're simply asking too much of backups in a physical system that is quite unforgivable. I'll wait on the FA talk for now, I know @long distance has a thread on it. I believe B Williams, L Joesph, Suh and a few decent options might be available but again I won't get too much into that here rn. We definitely need a real 0/1T and 5T if we want to dominate the DL again in the okie, tite, odd front. We're hurting and it should be a priority.

I'll bring up just a few names from college since that's my expertise and we need to hit on another draft.

Jordan Davis, who you'll pay a premium for. Is a monster at 6'6/350 with length and knows how to use it. He'll never be a consistent pass rusher but has plus play strength, grip strength and flexibility for a dude his size. He can move and has light feet. Great job at utilizing his length. Benches players off him win ease. He won't be overwhelmed by anything "physical" in the NFL. Surprisingly flexibility, nimble with good lateral movements for his size not great but good. He's like your top fighter you send out in a group fight to intimidate the other side. Has some position flexibility as well esp for us and what we do. Powerful hands. Very rarely moved back. Inconsistent but very nice first step for his size. Super intriguing for us. Made a huge jump from 3rd round to potential top 20 pick.


Travis Jones is a kid I've had my eye for a few years. Local guy. Excels against the run. Resetting the line. Head and eyes are always up. Seems to know what type of run is coming and heads that way before others. Smooth fluid movements doesn't look stiff moving around at all. Plus anchor / base and lower half strength. Both of these guys should help immediately against the run and might be 1-2 for 0/1T in the draft.

For 4i/5T
I think Logan Hall is super intriguing for us. He's like 6'6/290 definitely could add on some weight. Tone setter that likes a fight. Violent active hands. Big time anchor. Plus block recognition. I think he'd be a great project for Bill. Eventually 4i/5T. 2nd round value imo.

Lined up at 3T

Love this rush here. Again lined up inside shows up some athleticism. Nice hand work. Gets inside placement, disengages and uses a club swim to finish.


I think Demarvin Leal would be quite the get. He still has to develop some and get a little stronger to hit his true potential but he's freaky dude we could play him anywhere if he hits. Mainly 6-3-5T in college and I see the same in the pros. He's an animal that gave Evan Neal all he could handle. Explosive. Incredible movement skills at 6'4/290. Late 1st - 2nd


Look at the hesi shake. Nice little chop before the spin.

Phidarian Mathis is another guy I could see in the part. Plus run defender that was a natural at holding his ground / resetting while keeping his eyes in the backfield. Seems to know what's coming at him. Has a long way to go before he's pressuring the QB next level but definitely fills a few needs and has some versatility. 3rd-4th round

Travon Walker is another guy that just screams 3/4/5T for us. Has a lot of God's attributes for defending the run. Plus play strength upper & lower. Violent hands. Smart and uses good technique against the run. Better movement skills than Mathis. 3rd round

Also mention these guys as
Jayden Peevey
Zach Carter
Eyioma Uwazurike

@Kontradiction @patsfanfromoversea @Username @patsinthesnow
Anyone else have any favorites for these roles? Feel free to jump in.

Can't like this enough BGC! You've put meat (detail) on what I thought I was seeing through the season. If your front 7 can't stop the run on third and short or hold the offense to under 5 yards on first down it's going to be very, very difficult.

Having pushed all of his chips onto the table last season, Belichick is going to need a lot of good decisions (and, perhaps, a change of approach) in the off-season to get this sorted. They don't look to be just a single player away, even if they had the cash to recruit one.
 

DaBruinz

Pats, B's, Sox
PatsFans.com Supporter
I think that how the Pats draft hinges around what they do with Onwenu. If they put Onwenu at RT, then I see them going with a DL in the first. If they feel that Onwenu is best inside at LG, then I see them going with OT in the first.

What I do know is that they're going to be doing a few restructures between now and the start of the year so that they have the money to put the Franchise tag on Jackson while also putting RFA tenders on Meyers and Olszewski. They'll need 22M in cap space and they currently only have 13. So that's a lot of money to free up.. BUT, they can do that with moving Salary to SB for Judon (6.6M) , Henry (4M) , and Smith (5.2M). And that's if they don't add any "void" years. They could free up 2.5M doing the same with Mason.

It's going to be interesting to see what the Pats do with Agholor, Van Noy, Godchaux. Outright cutting those 3 frees up 15M.

It's also going to be interesting to see if the Pats give Wynn an extension or just let him play out the 5th year option.. An extension would drop that 10.4M cap hit significantly.

I'm also hoping that the Pats can get McCourty to redo his deal for another year so that the full 6.45M doesn't hit the cap this year.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
@Tunescribe @50-yard-line and others this is what I was talking about. Sorry been busy and falling asleep almost any time I hit the bed. Nothing ground breaking but scheme & talent are at a crossroads of sorts imo. We definitely need an upgrade at 0/NT and another 5T.

The Pats are multiple and obviously do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. I just wanted to take a look at few things we run, ask of our players and what's needed to succeed in that scheme.

Feel free to add or bring up something I haven't that you want to talk about.

Defense - old school / new school - Odd / single high

DL / IDL
- To me, this group needs a lot of attention going forward. I think there's a good case for priority #1 in either FA, the draft or even a trade going forward for a few different reasons.Talent and scheme, as they often are. Are really tied together here imho. We've always used an okie front but the task and talent is causing execution to suffer. Okie and Tite are similar, we and others use both as "go-to's" at times to stop the run. Okie = outside the tackles shoulders (below) and Tite = inside the tackles shoulders. They're ways to stop the run while giving up a little pass rush.

View attachment 40180

View attachment 40181

In okie (above) 505 we'll usually play contain / 2 gap with one DT while slanting or rushing the other inside or outside the tackle. Same for the OLB, usually contain and rush. NT will two gap or be reading the backfield. LB's take on the G's / pullers while we have a Saf rotate down. For the most part, almost everything has a variation. It's @patfanken old old school and a tough ask. We're like top 3-5 playing in an odd front with single high. Not many teams are playing an odd front with single for volume.

The problem(s), for starters, is our IDL - across the board aren't holding up.
Certain players always get singled out, its inevitable but that's why the A22 is great even though it's a **** product to watch. Honestly our whole IDL was inconsistent all year but at least we know Barmore is trending up. We couldn't beat combo blocks, got washed against zone - guys got turned around way too easy against zone runs and couldn't recover. Besides Barmore none have a big tackle radius.

I mentioned this in my other post and I could be off but I definitely feel like I notice something against certain types of teams. It's not black and white. We don't win against this type and lose against another. It's not that simple and I could be wrong. We tend to handle and excel against certain types, maybe smaller OL's, teams that run spread (Falcons, Chargers, Jete)? And have been struggling against more bully types. Ones that are used to setting a tone, making it a fight. You'll tend to struggle more against better comp, more physical teams but thought I'd bring it up in any case if anyone else had a similar thought. Again not black & white it's not an every time thing. And I could be wrong but I think it speaks to the DL / IDL a little bit.

Let's take the Tennessee game for example. We played base almost half the snaps. Like 45% that game give or take. And we still had backups running for 200+ yards when we put our big boys up front in okie. Sure some things are like a barter system - give & take but again we obviously put all our run stoppers out there and played base almost half the game. Can't ignore the obvious there.

One of the problems, again imo is playing teams that have a real identity in certain areas. Tough physical teams that run and excel at running duo or inside zone will double our 0 and 5T and it's a downhill battle after that bc we simply don't have guys that can consistently beat combo blocks / double teams. Again this goes back to scheme & talent in some regards. We're asking guys who can't consistently beat doubles to do so often. Guy, God & Davis aren't bad players. They're really not, they're average players that teeter on that cusp going a little over and under. They're just not tier 1 or 2 types and not guys you'd see starting on a SB roster right now. Solid players that contribute but you're asking backups te features and the foundation on a very tough defense.
I agree with your takes completely. I am glad we made the "change" from the two DT a DE and OLB rushing with 2 MLB to the 3 DT situationally 2 DT Wise as DE and Judon which was still bigger than last year. I was surprised to see then that we still got pushed around too much for my taste.
If we keep playing this formation no matter rn if it's okie or tite i think Barmore and Godchaux could take over the 4i/5T role. If we get a New NT for the 0 T i Believe that front with Barmore in his second year would be really solid. The thing is i believe Godchaux isn't made for the two Gap 0 T in this specific role. I blieve he is is a solid run defender for the 3T or 4I role here, maybe just not the 0T.
Anyway we definitely need a change in our whole front 6/7. I don't have much faith for Davis and Guy going forward. Davis is around 320 but isn't getting the 2 gap job done. I mean when was the last time we had like 3 guys with at least 310 pounds upfront and big LB and couldn't stop the run when we needed. This is a little bit confusing imo.
Maybe we could make a little switch and a 3-1-4i/5T combination with a big God-bigNT-Barmore as a lineup. or two 3 T with God-big NT lined up there because i believe that some guys mentioned like Davis, travis Jones did lined up in the B Gap a lot as well. The responsibilities would change here a lot for the LB since in my opinion the interior DL should take on the IOL in this line-up. God and let's just say Davis would take both G and the C. Judon and the other edge rusher would need to contain the edge with the LB taking the one B Gap which would be open.
I believe one advantage of this formation would be that the LB wouldn't need to take on the Guards which requires bigger LB. I believe we could use more lighter LB with sideline range in this formation which would have further positive aspects like Coverage improvement. But this is just guessing
I will answer regarding players below
Davis is inconsistent when asked to 2 gap. Gets moved a little bit too much out his lane but is serviceable. Gets washed on occasion when he tries to come off his block. Same with God and Guy. Both get turned around too easy. And all three have trouble moving laterally while trying to shed blocks. That's when you'll see them get walled off. Again none besides CB have any real tackling radius.
Barmore has been fantastic for a rookie but definitely can improve his tackling a bit. He can move very well. It actually was a plus in college but is very noticeable now. He seemed to miss some easy ones. He's been great though so I don't want to be to harsh on a rookie. He's like the one guy we have that knows how to beat doubles. Can rush half man. Our most complete IDL even if he's still putting everything together. It's all there for him. Get him a little stronger, hope he stays on the right track and we have a pro bowl player.

Whether we're in 335, 236, 245. Two down linemen or three, we absolutely have to get help beside Barmore. If this is what we're going to keep asking of our players and I don't see that changing considering we've ran it for so long. We need a real rock up front that can reset the los and eat doubles with ease. Right now we're simply asking too much of backups in a physical system that is quite unforgivable. I'll wait on the FA talk for now, I know @long distance has a thread on it. I believe B Williams, L Joesph, Suh and a few decent options might be available but again I won't get too much into that here rn. We definitely need a real 0/1T and 5T if we want to dominate the DL again in the okie, tite, odd front. We're hurting and it should be a priority.

I'll bring up just a few names from college since that's my expertise and we need to hit on another draft.

Jordan Davis, who you'll pay a premium for. Is a monster at 6'6/350 with length and knows how to use it. He'll never be a consistent pass rusher but has plus play strength, grip strength and flexibility for a dude his size. He can move and has light feet. Great job at utilizing his length. Benches players off him win ease. He won't be overwhelmed by anything "physical" in the NFL. Surprisingly flexibility, nimble with good lateral movements for his size not great but good. He's like your top fighter you send out in a group fight to intimidate the other side. Has some position flexibility as well esp for us and what we do. Powerful hands. Very rarely moved back. Inconsistent but very nice first step for his size. Super intriguing for us. Made a huge jump from 3rd round to potential top 20 pick.


Travis Jones is a kid I've had my eye for a few years. Local guy. Excels against the run. Resetting the line. Head and eyes are always up. Seems to know what type of run is coming and heads that way before others. Smooth fluid movements doesn't look stiff moving around at all. Plus anchor / base and lower half strength. Both of these guys should help immediately against the run and might be 1-2 for 0/1T in the draft.

For 4i/5T
I think Logan Hall is super intriguing for us. He's like 6'6/290 definitely could add on some weight. Tone setter that likes a fight. Violent active hands. Big time anchor. Plus block recognition. I think he'd be a great project for Bill. Eventually 4i/5T. 2nd round value imo.

Lined up at 3T

Love this rush here. Again lined up inside shows up some athleticism. Nice hand work. Gets inside placement, disengages and uses a club swim to finish.


I think Demarvin Leal would be quite the get. He still has to develop some and get a little stronger to hit his true potential but he's freaky dude we could play him anywhere if he hits. Mainly 6-3-5T in college and I see the same in the pros. He's an animal that gave Evan Neal all he could handle. Explosive. Incredible movement skills at 6'4/290. Late 1st - 2nd


Look at the hesi shake. Nice little chop before the spin.

Phidarian Mathis is another guy I could see in the part. Plus run defender that was a natural at holding his ground / resetting while keeping his eyes in the backfield. Seems to know what's coming at him. Has a long way to go before he's pressuring the QB next level but definitely fills a few needs and has some versatility. 3rd-4th round

Travon Walker is another guy that just screams 3/4/5T for us. Has a lot of God's attributes for defending the run. Plus play strength upper & lower. Violent hands. Smart and uses good technique against the run. Better movement skills than Mathis. 3rd round

Also mention these guys as
Jayden Peevey
Zach Carter
Eyioma Uwazurike

@Kontradiction @patsfanfromoversea @Username @patsinthesnow
Anyone else have any favorites for these roles? Feel free to jump in.
The biggest needs you mentioned are at 0/1T and 5T in the DL and MLB in the LB group.
For the Nose Tackle I have following players in mind:
- Fatukasi from the Jets
- B. Williams Ravens
- Jordan Davis
- Travis Jones
- Joseph-day from the rams
- Neill Farrell LSU


Travis Jones, Williams or Fatukasi would be my top choices here since i rather have a CB/DE/Mlb/OT in the first rd. and i believe Davis goes in the first, Jones could be there in the second for us.
There could be some players added depending on the actual List of Free Agents

We could look at some 3T options as well with DJ Jones, BJ Hill, Campbell, Hicks if we are looking at some vet options.

for the 5T i would look at the draft, the FA class isn't looking that great so far
- Hall + run defense from the DE standpoint for us
- walker great size and length
- Leal obviously would be a nice run defender DE early and DT pass rusher next to Barmore. This would be an incredible fit imo
- matthew butler tennesee

And just want to add I would love to draft Leo Chenal Wisconsin LB even tough he is a big LB but we still need one big run stopping LB
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I am a huge fan of both of Houston’s star defenders.

de/olb hall - is exactly who we need to start opposite judon. He is a strong run defender and on passing downs, he can move inside and rush from there. His feet never stop moving. Needs technique help, but that is what our coaches do best. Depending on how he runs, I have no problem if we take him at 21.

Cb jones - only a slot corner. Had speed, great in man coverage, decent tackler and above average as a pattern matcher. Monster return man, bye bye oslzewski. However he is really small and tiny.
 

One-If-By-Sea

In the Starting Line-Up
I agree with your takes completely. I am glad we made the "change" from the two DT a DE and OLB rushing with 2 MLB to the 3 DT situationally 2 DT Wise as DE and Judon which was still bigger than last year. I was surprised to see then that we still got pushed around too much for my taste.
If we keep playing this formation no matter rn if it's okie or tite i think Barmore and Godchaux could take over the 4i/5T role. If we get a New NT for the 0 T i Believe that front with Barmore in his second year would be really solid. The thing is i believe Godchaux isn't made for the two Gap 0 T in this specific role. I blieve he is is a solid run defender for the 3T or 4I role here, maybe just not the 0T.
Anyway we definitely need a change in our whole front 6/7. I don't have much faith for Davis and Guy going forward. Davis is around 320 but isn't getting the 2 gap job done. I mean when was the last time we had like 3 guys with at least 310 pounds upfront and big LB and couldn't stop the run when we needed. This is a little bit confusing imo.
Maybe we could make a little switch and a 3-1-4i/5T combination with a big God-bigNT-Barmore as a lineup. or two 3 T with God-big NT lined up there because i believe that some guys mentioned like Davis, travis Jones did lined up in the B Gap a lot as well. The responsibilities would change here a lot for the LB since in my opinion the interior DL should take on the IOL in this line-up. God and let's just say Davis would take both G and the C. Judon and the other edge rusher would need to contain the edge with the LB taking the one B Gap which would be open.
I believe one advantage of this formation would be that the LB wouldn't need to take on the Guards which requires bigger LB. I believe we could use more lighter LB with sideline range in this formation which would have further positive aspects like Coverage improvement. But this is just guessing
I will answer regarding players below

The biggest needs you mentioned are at 0/1T and 5T in the DL and MLB in the LB group.
For the Nose Tackle I have following players in mind:
- Fatukasi from the Jets
- B. Williams Ravens
- Jordan Davis
- Travis Jones
- Joseph-day from the rams
- Neill Farrell LSU


Travis Jones, Williams or Fatukasi would be my top choices here since i rather have a CB/DE/Mlb/OT in the first rd. and i believe Davis goes in the first, Jones could be there in the second for us.
There could be some players added depending on the actual List of Free Agents

We could look at some 3T options as well with DJ Jones, BJ Hill, Campbell, Hicks if we are looking at some vet options.

for the 5T i would look at the draft, the FA class isn't looking that great so far
- Hall + run defense from the DE standpoint for us
- walker great size and length
- Leal obviously would be a nice run defender DE early and DT pass rusher next to Barmore. This would be an incredible fit imo
- matthew butler tennesee

And just want to add I would love to draft Leo Chenal Wisconsin LB even tough he is a big LB but we still need one big run stopping LB

Thanks to everyone for the info. Really fun to read. I am so exhausted watching 4 or 5 yards allowed rushing on 1st down I hope we sign Fatukasi or another FA plus draft a DT in the first 2 rounds.

Does anyone think Barmore could play opposite Judon if we had two new DTs?
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Thanks to everyone for the info. Really fun to read. I am so exhausted watching 4 or 5 yards allowed rushing on 1st down I hope we sign Fatukasi or another FA plus draft a DT in the first 2 rounds.

Does anyone think Barmore could play opposite Judon if we had two new DTs?
I personally think we should keep barmore inside
Reasons are that I believe with his size he is a perfect interior rusher and DT who can rush the passer and have the ceiling to stop the run as well imo they are hard to find. Also interior pass rushers are rare in FA compared to edge rushers , same for draft and teams usually resign their interior psss rushers.
Secondly I believe this would not be as effective as an DE rusher opposite Judon and barmore inside i think this would lead to a better pass rush.
A good example are the chiefs here, they tried Chris Jones similar size at DE more this season at first but they changed it back after Jones impact was limited
 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
Everyone's seen this by now ...

This was another point I was harping on all year. Things were very hard for the offense. Everything was long and drawn out. Nothing was easy. We run a lot of in-breaking routes that at times take a while to come together. We've seen the clusterfukk that was the MOF/flat area some times. Some of that was our guys running the wrong routes but it was also the defense knowing where to be. Knowing we're targeting that area. And there were times the target areas were congested.

We need an easy button lol. Someone that can just win, just get open without x, y & z happening at once. Someone you can move around, even in the backfield to disrupt coverage tendencies. Motion. Quick juke routes in the MOF.
That an a true X WR. Agholor isn't a true X. He's someone you move around and I actually wish we took some more shots down field from the slot and he's the one guy that could really fulfill that task. How many times have we scored off a quick pass or 40 yard bomb? Someone that will command CB1 coverage? Like catch and score? Not many if any.

Getting the OL stabilized should priority #1 on offense but we have options there imo. These two are next imo. We have our QB, top 5-7 RB room and a TE1. A few nice route runners that are interchangeable, mostly operate inside.

I have no problem getting these guys through FA or trade but we need at least one more player at WR. Few names for the draft.

X/YAC
Wilson
Dotson
Tolbert
Pierce
Doubs

Slot//YAC
Burks
Bell
Khalil Shakir
Skyy Moore
Bolden

I wouldn't go WR RD1 unless we get a Wilson type without trading up. Basically him and maybe another WR but the value isn't quite there besides Williams and Burks and Williams is hurt. Some really nice day 2 options. Feel the same for CB actually. Unless we get lucky and one of the big 4 drop to us there's plenty of day 2/3 options.
 

One-If-By-Sea

In the Starting Line-Up
I personally think we should keep barmore inside
Reasons are that I believe with his size he is a perfect interior rusher and DT who can rush the passer and have the ceiling to stop the run as well imo they are hard to find. Also interior pass rushers are rare in FA compared to edge rushers , same for draft and teams usually resign their interior psss rushers.
Secondly I believe this would not be as effective as an DE rusher opposite Judon and barmore inside i think this would lead to a better pass rush.
A good example are the chiefs here, they tried Chris Jones similar size at DE more this season at first but they changed it back after Jones impact was limited

Thanks. Maybe an inside rusher is important - people on PatsFans know better than me. I am not sure how many sacks come from an inside pass rush. I would be content to plug the middle and push the pocket while concentrating on the pass rush from the edges, stunts, and blitzes. I am not sure that the internal pass rush is as important as stopping the 4 or 5 yard 1st down inside running plays we seemed to consistently give up. That is what I mean by plugging the middle - limit the 1st down rushes to 1 or 2 yards while keeping the guards off our LBs. If we did that I think we would improve a lot more than what an inside pass rush gives us.

Barmore is not great against the run. Therefore I thought about putting Barmore one-on-one on the outside against the tackles. Maybe Barmore is not quick or agile enough to play on the outside. I do not know. I get frustrated with the constant push of the opposing OL, and am not sure that Barmore is stout enough to stop that push, but maybe he is if there is a run stuffing DT next to him. Maybe Barmore is like Jones and not quick and agile enough for DE, but Wilfork played at DE so I thought Barmore might be able to as well.
 

50-yard-line

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
@Tunescribe @50-yard-line and others this is what I was talking about. Sorry been busy and falling asleep almost any time I hit the bed. Nothing ground breaking but scheme & talent are at a crossroads of sorts imo. We definitely need an upgrade at 0/NT and another 5T.

The Pats are multiple and obviously do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. I just wanted to take a look at few things we run, ask of our players and what's needed to succeed in that scheme.

Feel free to add or bring up something I haven't that you want to talk about.

Defense - old school / new school - Odd / single high

DL / IDL
- To me, this group needs a lot of attention going forward. I think there's a good case for priority #1 in either FA, the draft or even a trade going forward for a few different reasons.Talent and scheme, as they often are. Are really tied together here imho. We've always used an okie front but the task and talent is causing execution to suffer. Okie and Tite are similar, we and others use both as "go-to's" at times to stop the run. Okie = outside the tackles shoulders (below) and Tite = inside the tackles shoulders. They're ways to stop the run while giving up a little pass rush.

View attachment 40180

View attachment 40181

In okie (above) 505 we'll usually play contain / 2 gap with one DT while slanting or rushing the other inside or outside the tackle. Same for the OLB, usually contain and rush. NT will two gap or be reading the backfield. LB's take on the G's / pullers while we have a Saf rotate down. For the most part, almost everything has a variation. It's @patfanken old old school and a tough ask. We're like top 3-5 playing in an odd front with single high. Not many teams are playing an odd front with single for volume.

The problem(s), for starters, is our IDL - across the board aren't holding up.
Certain players always get singled out, its inevitable but that's why the A22 is great even though it's a **** product to watch. Honestly our whole IDL was inconsistent all year but at least we know Barmore is trending up. We couldn't beat combo blocks, got washed against zone - guys got turned around way too easy against zone runs and couldn't recover. Besides Barmore none have a big tackle radius.
This is why I get very tired of certain posters aiming their ire at players who are being asked to do things they simply cannot do. None of our DL is being paid premium money. None of them were/are blue chip monsters. they're all good piece s- guys you want rotating around, but without that centerpiece (in this case, a true clogger in the middle), they're getting blamed for physical limitations that were known when they were signed,
Jordan Davis, who you'll pay a premium for. Is a monster at 6'6/350 with length and knows how to use it. He'll never be a consistent pass rusher but has plus play strength, grip strength and flexibility for a dude his size. He can move and has light feet. Great job at utilizing his length. Benches players off him win ease. He won't be overwhelmed by anything "physical" in the NFL. Surprisingly flexibility, nimble with good lateral movements for his size not great but good. He's like your top fighter you send out in a group fight to intimidate the other side. Has some position flexibility as well esp for us and what we do. Powerful hands. Very rarely moved back. Inconsistent but very nice first step for his size. Super intriguing for us. Made a huge jump from 3rd round to potential top 20 pick.

Absolutely loved watching him all year. Does all the quiet things well and every now and then makes you go "wow." If he's there at 21 and the Pats pass, I might have to buy a new TV.
 

Tunescribe

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
@Tunescribe @50-yard-line and others this is what I was talking about. Sorry been busy and falling asleep almost any time I hit the bed. Nothing ground breaking but scheme & talent are at a crossroads of sorts imo. We definitely need an upgrade at 0/NT and another 5T.

The Pats are multiple and obviously do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. I just wanted to take a look at few things we run, ask of our players and what's needed to succeed in that scheme.

Feel free to add or bring up something I haven't that you want to talk about.

Defense - old school / new school - Odd / single high

DL / IDL
- To me, this group needs a lot of attention going forward. I think there's a good case for priority #1 in either FA, the draft or even a trade going forward for a few different reasons.Talent and scheme, as they often are. Are really tied together here imho. We've always used an okie front but the task and talent is causing execution to suffer. Okie and Tite are similar, we and others use both as "go-to's" at times to stop the run. Okie = outside the tackles shoulders (below) and Tite = inside the tackles shoulders. They're ways to stop the run while giving up a little pass rush.

View attachment 40180

View attachment 40181

In okie (above) 505 we'll usually play contain / 2 gap with one DT while slanting or rushing the other inside or outside the tackle. Same for the OLB, usually contain and rush. NT will two gap or be reading the backfield. LB's take on the G's / pullers while we have a Saf rotate down. For the most part, almost everything has a variation. It's @patfanken old old school and a tough ask. We're like top 3-5 playing in an odd front with single high. Not many teams are playing an odd front with single for volume.

The problem(s), for starters, is our IDL - across the board aren't holding up.
Certain players always get singled out, its inevitable but that's why the A22 is great even though it's a **** product to watch. Honestly our whole IDL was inconsistent all year but at least we know Barmore is trending up. We couldn't beat combo blocks, got washed against zone - guys got turned around way too easy against zone runs and couldn't recover. Besides Barmore none have a big tackle radius.

I mentioned this in my other post and I could be off but I definitely feel like I notice something against certain types of teams. It's not black and white. We don't win against this type and lose against another. It's not that simple and I could be wrong. We tend to handle and excel against certain types, maybe smaller OL's, teams that run spread (Falcons, Chargers, Jete)? And have been struggling against more bully types. Ones that are used to setting a tone, making it a fight. You'll tend to struggle more against better comp, more physical teams but thought I'd bring it up in any case if anyone else had a similar thought. Again not black & white it's not an every time thing. And I could be wrong but I think it speaks to the DL / IDL a little bit.

Let's take the Tennessee game for example. We played base almost half the snaps. Like 45% that game give or take. And we still had backups running for 200+ yards when we put our big boys up front in okie. Sure some things are like a barter system - give & take but again we obviously put all our run stoppers out there and played base almost half the game. Can't ignore the obvious there.

One of the problems, again imo is playing teams that have a real identity in certain areas. Tough physical teams that run and excel at running duo or inside zone will double our 0 and 5T and it's a downhill battle after that bc we simply don't have guys that can consistently beat combo blocks / double teams. Again this goes back to scheme & talent in some regards. We're asking guys who can't consistently beat doubles to do so often. Guy, God & Davis aren't bad players. They're really not, they're average players that teeter on that cusp going a little over and under. They're just not tier 1 or 2 types and not guys you'd see starting on a SB roster right now. Solid players that contribute but you're asking backups to be features and the foundation on a very tough defense.

Davis is inconsistent when asked to 2 gap. Gets moved a little bit too much out his lane but is serviceable. Gets washed on occasion when he tries to come off his block. Same with God and Guy. Both get turned around too easy. And all three have trouble moving laterally while trying to shed blocks. That's when you'll see them get walled off. Again none besides CB have any real tackling radius.
Barmore has been fantastic for a rookie but definitely can improve his tackling a bit. He can move very well. It actually was a plus in college but is very noticeable now. He seemed to miss some easy ones. He's been great though so I don't want to be to harsh on a rookie. He's like the one guy we have that knows how to beat doubles. Can rush half man. Our most complete IDL even if he's still putting everything together. It's all there for him. Get him a little stronger, hope he stays on the right track and we have a pro bowl player.

Whether we're in 335, 236, 245. Two down linemen or three, we absolutely have to get help beside Barmore. If this is what we're going to keep asking of our players and I don't see that changing considering we've ran it for so long. We need a real rock up front that can reset the los and eat doubles with ease. Right now we're simply asking too much of backups in a physical system that is quite unforgivable. I'll wait on the FA talk for now, I know @long distance has a thread on it. I believe B Williams, L Joesph, Suh and a few decent options might be available but again I won't get too much into that here rn. We definitely need a real 0/1T and 5T if we want to dominate the DL again in the okie, tite, odd front. We're hurting and it should be a priority.

I'll bring up just a few names from college since that's my expertise and we need to hit on another draft.

Jordan Davis, who you'll pay a premium for. Is a monster at 6'6/350 with length and knows how to use it. He'll never be a consistent pass rusher but has plus play strength, grip strength and flexibility for a dude his size. He can move and has light feet. Great job at utilizing his length. Benches players off him win ease. He won't be overwhelmed by anything "physical" in the NFL. Surprisingly flexibility, nimble with good lateral movements for his size not great but good. He's like your top fighter you send out in a group fight to intimidate the other side. Has some position flexibility as well esp for us and what we do. Powerful hands. Very rarely moved back. Inconsistent but very nice first step for his size. Super intriguing for us. Made a huge jump from 3rd round to potential top 20 pick.


Travis Jones is a kid I've had my eye for a few years. Local guy. Excels against the run. Resetting the line. Head and eyes are always up. Seems to know what type of run is coming and heads that way before others. Smooth fluid movements doesn't look stiff moving around at all. Plus anchor / base and lower half strength. Both of these guys should help immediately against the run and might be 1-2 for 0/1T in the draft.

For 4i/5T
I think Logan Hall is super intriguing for us. He's like 6'6/290 definitely could add on some weight. Tone setter that likes a fight. Violent active hands. Big time anchor. Plus block recognition. I think he'd be a great project for Bill. Eventually 4i/5T. 2nd round value imo.

Lined up at 3T

Love this rush here. Again lined up inside shows up some athleticism. Nice hand work. Gets inside placement, disengages and uses a club swim to finish.


I think Demarvin Leal would be quite the get. He still has to develop some and get a little stronger to hit his true potential but he's freaky dude we could play him anywhere if he hits. Mainly 6-3-5T in college and I see the same in the pros. He's an animal that gave Evan Neal all he could handle. Explosive. Incredible movement skills at 6'4/290. Late 1st - 2nd


Look at the hesi shake. Nice little chop before the spin.

Phidarian Mathis is another guy I could see in the part. Plus run defender that was a natural at holding his ground / resetting while keeping his eyes in the backfield. Seems to know what's coming at him. Has a long way to go before he's pressuring the QB next level but definitely fills a few needs and has some versatility. 3rd-4th round

Travon Walker is another guy that just screams 3/4/5T for us. Has a lot of God's attributes for defending the run. Plus play strength upper & lower. Violent hands. Smart and uses good technique against the run. Better movement skills than Mathis. 3rd round

Also mention these guys as
Jayden Peevey
Zach Carter
Eyioma Uwazurike

@Kontradiction @patsfanfromoversea @Username @patsinthesnow
Anyone else have any favorites for these roles? Feel free to jump in.

@BaconGrundleCandy do you think there are any players currently on the roster -- "red-shirt" types (Jennings, Perkins, McGrone) -- who might significantly contribute defensively next season? Also, can't players like Uche and Winovich be molded into something? Maybe Henry Anderson? I'm just wondering if some help might already be onboard.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
@BaconGrundleCandy do you think there are any players currently on the roster -- "red-shirt" types (Jennings, Perkins, McGrone) -- who might significantly contribute defensively next season? Also, can't players like Uche and Winovich be molded into something? Maybe Henry Anderson? I'm just wondering if some help might already be onboard.
Honestly have no idea what's going on with Jennings. None.

I think it's possible McGrone can contribute but making a serious impact is doubtful imo bc he was really raw in coverage for example. I like him a lot but think we could see real growing pains early on. I think experience is his biggest weakness.

I love Perk. He's a nasty dude that plays with a ton of passion. Big time motor. I'm hopeful he contributes for sure. Just something about him. Definitely a football player through and through.

I was hoping Uche would have a future off the ball at LB but don't think the switch is possible now. Not sure he's physical or crafty enough to win in the trenches as a LB. I'm more than happy with him just rushing the passer. Same for Wino but Bill feels differently. Not everyone has to be a Swiss army knife but those can absolutely rush the passer.

Those two bother me a lot and I'm sure others as well. Not world beaters but both can play in the league.
 

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