Will Sony make this team?

[203Pat]

We carry 4 running backs (not counting special teamers or fullbacks). HOPEFULLY, they last four years each. Belichick isn't picking up 5th options.
So, we need a new RB every year, and more if the RB's don't last four years.

So, by your measure, every patriot running back is terrible since Belichick continues to draft running backs. The reality is that we have a revolving door, by choice.

Michel is doing exactly what he was drafted to do. Harris is doing just what he was drafted to do. White has done much more than we have any right to expect. Now, we add Stevenson to the mix, probably in a minor role, as is unusually the case for rookies if the starters are back.

I don’t know why this is so difficult. What Bill always does is draft running backs in the middle rounds or occasionally brings in an UDFA. What Bill doesn’t (shouldn't) do is draft a RB in the first round. My entire point is it is a waste to take a running back early in the draft since the drop off from good to serviceable at the position is minimal. On top of spending a first round pick on a position that is basically wasted we didn't even get a very good running back. At least if he was Nick Chubb I could say "Yeah I hate wasting a first round pick on a running back but at least he is a dynamic player." You cant even do that with Sony. Just keep drafting guys middle to late and recycling them every 2-3 years the way we did for a long time up until Sony.

 

[203Pat]

Last sentence first: Michel is about to get expensive if they exercised the 5th year option - more expensive than any back BB's paid in many, many years. So, not surprised that they keep the RB train running.

Your eyes tell you one thing, mine show me another, as in watching Michel in 2019 getting hit almost immediately as he got the ball. And Michel in 2020 running hard and gaining almost 6 yards/carry.

So you're telling me Bill decided to draft a player in the first round knowing that he wouldn't be worth the money to keep in year 5? If he turned out to be Christian McCaffery or Alvin Kamara do you really think Bill would not pick up the option?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I don’t know why this is so difficult. What Bill always does is draft running backs in the middle rounds or occasionally brings in an UDFA. What Bill doesn’t (shouldn't) do is draft a RB in the first round. My entire point is it is a waste to take a running back early in the draft since the drop off from good to serviceable at the position is minimal. On top of spending a first round pick on a position that is basically wasted we didn't even get a very good running back. At least if he was Nick Chubb I could say "Yeah I hate wasting a first round pick on a running back but at least he is a dynamic player." You cant even do that with Sony. Just keep drafting guys middle to late and recycling them every 2-3 years the way we did for a long time up until Sony.

Laurence Maroney says Hi!

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I don’t know why this is so difficult. What Bill always does is draft running backs in the middle rounds or occasionally brings in an UDFA. What Bill doesn’t (shouldn't) do is draft a RB in the first round. My entire point is it is a waste to take a running back early in the draft since the drop off from good to serviceable at the position is minimal. On top of spending a first round pick on a position that is basically wasted we didn't even get a very good running back. At least if he was Nick Chubb I could say "Yeah I hate wasting a first round pick on a running back but at least he is a dynamic player." You cant even do that with Sony. Just keep drafting guys middle to late and recycling them every 2-3 years the way we did for a long time up until Sony.

Your argument, that you have repeated ad nauseum, fails to address the fact that the Pats in 2018 wanted a RB who could start immediately to help with a Super Bowl run. Yes, BB drafts in the middle rounds or UDFA, and then sits the RB for most of their rookie year. In the case of Sony, BB chose a 1st round RB with the hope of plugging an immediate hole (which worked). Could it have worked better? Yes it could have. Could have we drafted a RB later in the draft, Yes, but the Pats took a higher draft pick in hopes of Sony contributing immediately. Picking it the middle rounds decreased the likelihood of the RB starting and playing all of 2018. Was BB guessing he only had TB12 for a few more years? Probably, BB is not dumb.

Yes I agree with you that BB and the Pats should not draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd round. I love Harris and Stephenson and they are 3rd ad 4th rounders - let's keep drafting like that. We are not football smarter than BB, so why did BB deviate from his long-standing plan of drafting RBs in lower rounds (especially after Maroney was not a shining star)? BB was gambling that Sony could contribute immediately without putting TB12's health at risk. It was a gamble. It seemed to work. Would Chubb have picked up the Pats system, protected TB12, and run hard in his first year? Who knows. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony? Yes. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony if he didn't quickly pick up the Pats offensive system and had not stepped in immediately in 2018? Not in a million years.

Sony is not a bad back, he was very good last year. No he is not good enough to pick up his 5th year option. Most people on this board agree with you that the Pats are better off drafting RBs in the middle rounds. Most people on this board agree with you that Chubb turned out better than Sony. The discussion would be more nuanced if you tried to explain why BB deviated and chose a RB in the 1st round. Arguments of Sony vs. Chubb, and "1st round RBs" versus "middle round RBs" are arguments you are making up - very few people disagree with you. You are yelling at the wind.

 

[Wozzy]

Your argument, that you have repeated ad nauseum, fails to address the fact that the Pats in 2018 wanted a RB who could start immediately to help with a Super Bowl run. Yes, BB drafts in the middle rounds or UDFA, and then sits the RB for most of their rookie year. In the case of Sony, BB chose a 1st round RB with the hope of plugging an immediate hole (which worked). Could it have worked better? Yes it could have. Could have we drafted a RB later in the draft, Yes, but the Pats took a higher draft pick in hopes of Sony contributing immediately. Picking it the middle rounds decreased the likelihood of the RB starting and playing all of 2018. Was BB guessing he only had TB12 for a few more years? Probably, BB is not dumb.

Yes I agree with you that BB and the Pats should not draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd round. I love Harris and Stephenson and they are 3rd ad 4th rounders - let's keep drafting like that. We are not football smarter than BB, so why did BB deviate from his long-standing plan of drafting RBs in lower rounds (especially after Maroney was not a shining star)? BB was gambling that Sony could contribute immediately without putting TB12's health at risk. It was a gamble. It seemed to work. Would Chubb have picked up the Pats system, protected TB12, and run hard in his first year? Who knows. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony? Yes. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony if he didn't quickly pick up the Pats offensive system and had not stepped in immediately in 2018? Not in a million years.

Sony is not a bad back, he was very good last year. No he is not good enough to pick up his 5th year option. Most people on this board agree with you that the Pats are better off drafting RBs in the middle rounds. Most people on this board agree with you that Chubb turned out better than Sony. The discussion would be more nuanced if you tried to explain why BB deviated and chose a RB in the 1st round. Arguments of Sony vs. Chubb, and "1st round RBs" versus "middle round RBs" are arguments you are making up - very few people disagree with you. You are yelling at the wind.

This ^

I would just add the reason they went Sony over Chubb was pass blocking... something a casual fan or fantasy football enthusiast knows nothing about. But as Alex Smith can attest to, is extremely important in the context of staying healthy and winning actual football games... especially when your GOAT QB is 41 year's old.

Chubb was a terrible pass blocker leaving college and Cleveland acquired Kareem Hunt after the fact for that very reason. From 2014-2019 every Patriot draft pick and personnel move made was with the intention of keeping the championship run alive, even if by 2019 they had burned through every resource and maxed out their cap debt.

RB's are replaceable parts, you don't commit longterm to RB's... or did you people suggesting otherwise learn nothing from Todd Gurley?

 

[50-yard-line]

So you're telling me Bill decided to draft a player in the first round knowing that he wouldn't be worth the money to keep in year 5? If he turned out to be Christian McCaffery or Alvin Kamara do you really think Bill would not pick up the option?

No, I'm not telling you that at all. I'm telling you that BB decided to draft Michel, drafted Michel, and got what he paid for. Michel hasn't "sucked" at all. You'll note that those 5th year options tend to flatten and fall out as you go deeper into the round. And BB doesn't like paying them, typically (see Cooks, Brandon).

How could Michel become one of those guys when they run RBBC and Josh McD only called throws to White, who was already there and had Brady's full trust? Would Kamara on the Pats be the same guy he was on Peyton-Brees's game planning and style?

I see this simple truth missed all the time here: a guy can't do more than he's given the opportunity to do. If you're not going to throw the ball to a WR (or an RB), he's not going to get otherworldly numbers - that's true of anyone. So when people compare someone who comes here to someone who goes elsewhere (particularly the "skill" positions), are they looking at all the variables? Metcalf catches a ton of contested balls as Wilson launches those ICBM-style bombs - do the Pats even throw those?

Meyers was a nothingburger, until he wasn't - and he wasn't because Newton began throwing the damned ball to him when everyone else was down and out. Now every WR thread talks about him as if he's a 100-yard receiver, which he might well be.

Everyone here LOVES Damien Harris. He's going into his 3rd year. Has 5 catches for 52 yards and 703 rushing yards, total. Now I'm sure you can find some stat here or there to convince you that he's really Derek Henry, if you love him, or that he's some chump if you hate him, because that's how these ridiculous "experts" make their clicks (like, hey, let's do the old 40-yard dash average for 5 positions and pretend it means something!)

Players do their job, and their job is to do what they're asked to do. Teams run systems; coaches ask different things of players. If a WR misses a block on the Pats, that's a big deal to BB, I'm sure. If an RB doesn't pick up the right blitzer, or doesn't get out in the flat on time for a check-down, that's a big deal to BB, I'm sure.

Chandler Jones in New England wasn't Chandler Jones on the Cards...for a reason beyond how well Chandler Jones played.

 

[Ollie]

Everyone here LOVES Damien Harris. He's going into his 3rd year. Has 5 catches for 52 yards and 703 rushing yards, total. Now I'm sure you can find some stat here or there to convince you that he's really Derek Henry, if you love him, or that he's some chump if you hate him, because that's how these ridiculous "experts" make their clicks (like, hey, let's do the old 40-yard dash average for 5 positions and pretend it means something!)

Harris has pretty much only played 10 games but i think people have seen enough to like what they see.

 

[203Pat]

No, I'm not telling you that at all. I'm telling you that BB decided to draft Michel, drafted Michel, and got what he paid for. Michel hasn't "sucked" at all. You'll note that those 5th year options tend to flatten and fall out as you go deeper into the round. And BB doesn't like paying them, typically (see Cooks, Brandon).

How could Michel become one of those guys when they run RBBC and Josh McD only called throws to White, who was already there and had Brady's full trust? Would Kamara on the Pats be the same guy he was on Peyton-Brees's game planning and style?

I see this simple truth missed all the time here: a guy can't do more than he's given the opportunity to do. If you're not going to throw the ball to a WR (or an RB), he's not going to get otherworldly numbers - that's true of anyone. So when people compare someone who comes here to someone who goes elsewhere (particularly the "skill" positions), are they looking at all the variables? Metcalf catches a ton of contested balls as Wilson launches those ICBM-style bombs - do the Pats even throw those?

Meyers was a nothingburger, until he wasn't - and he wasn't because Newton began throwing the damned ball to him when everyone else was down and out. Now every WR thread talks about him as if he's a 100-yard receiver, which he might well be.

Everyone here LOVES Damien Harris. He's going into his 3rd year. Has 5 catches for 52 yards and 703 rushing yards, total. Now I'm sure you can find some stat here or there to convince you that he's really Derek Henry, if you love him, or that he's some chump if you hate him, because that's how these ridiculous "experts" make their clicks (like, hey, let's do the old 40-yard dash average for 5 positions and pretend it means something!)

Players do their job, and their job is to do what they're asked to do. Teams run systems; coaches ask different things of players. If a WR misses a block on the Pats, that's a big deal to BB, I'm sure. If an RB doesn't pick up the right blitzer, or doesn't get out in the flat on time for a check-down, that's a big deal to BB, I'm sure.

Chandler Jones in New England wasn't Chandler Jones on the Cards...for a reason beyond how well Chandler Jones played.

Michel hasn't sucked. He has just been average. He is Benjarvus Green-Ellis or Lagarette Blount (although I would take Blount over Sony). He is a JAG who takes what is there but doesn't create or do anything special. If a first round RB that garners a career 2300 career yards and loses his job in his third year is what Bill paid for then Bill should ask for his money back.

I have no idea what Cooks has to do with anything. He was a one year rental Bill flipped for what he traded for him. You really think anyone would give up a first round pick for Sony Michel the way the Rams did for Brandin Cooks?

So it is McDaniels fault that Sony isn't catching passes? I am sure there is some conspiracy that is holding back Sony's pass catching skills and not the fact he just cannot do it at an NFL level. Brady was gone last year so the whole "Brady's trust" argument is out the window.

Once again I don't know what Jakobi Meyers has to do with anything. Meyers made the most out of his opportunities and Sony didn't in the end of the day.

People like Damien Harris because he runs hard and took snaps from a guy we know isn't great (Sony). No one is claiming Harris is Derek Henry but he is at least better than Sony so that is a start.

Your argument, that you have repeated ad nauseum, fails to address the fact that the Pats in 2018 wanted a RB who could start immediately to help with a Super Bowl run. Yes, BB drafts in the middle rounds or UDFA, and then sits the RB for most of their rookie year. In the case of Sony, BB chose a 1st round RB with the hope of plugging an immediate hole (which worked). Could it have worked better? Yes it could have. Could have we drafted a RB later in the draft, Yes, but the Pats took a higher draft pick in hopes of Sony contributing immediately. Picking it the middle rounds decreased the likelihood of the RB starting and playing all of 2018. Was BB guessing he only had TB12 for a few more years? Probably, BB is not dumb.

Yes I agree with you that BB and the Pats should not draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd round. I love Harris and Stephenson and they are 3rd ad 4th rounders - let's keep drafting like that. We are not football smarter than BB, so why did BB deviate from his long-standing plan of drafting RBs in lower rounds (especially after Maroney was not a shining star)? BB was gambling that Sony could contribute immediately without putting TB12's health at risk. It was a gamble. It seemed to work. Would Chubb have picked up the Pats system, protected TB12, and run hard in his first year? Who knows. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony? Yes. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony if he didn't quickly pick up the Pats offensive system and had not stepped in immediately in 2018? Not in a million years.

Sony is not a bad back, he was very good last year. No he is not good enough to pick up his 5th year option. Most people on this board agree with you that the Pats are better off drafting RBs in the middle rounds. Most people on this board agree with you that Chubb turned out better than Sony. The discussion would be more nuanced if you tried to explain why BB deviated and chose a RB in the 1st round. Arguments of Sony vs. Chubb, and "1st round RBs" versus "middle round RBs" are arguments you are making up - very few people disagree with you. You are yelling at the wind.

I agree with most of your post. My whole thing is defending the Sony pick because we won a Super Bowl in 2018 and he played well in the post season. My stance is that a dozen other running backs could have done that behind that offensive line and TE group. Did Sony seize the opportunity? Yes and I will never crap on him for that 2018 post season run but I just can't justify spending a first round pick on a guy for 3 good games especially when the roster was starting to show its flaws even in 2018.

All in all I agree that Sony isn't a bad player but when you don't live up to expectations as a first round pick you're going to catch some heat. In all likelihood he ends up with 150 carries for 600 or so yards and his career as a Patriot is over and he bounces around a few teams for a couple years and that's that. I am just happy Sony and Maroney are the outliers for how Bill treats the RB position and not the norm.

 

[50-yard-line]

Harris has pretty much only played 10 games but i think people have seen enough to like what they see.

Okay. He's played 12 games and he's halfway through his rookie contract. At this point in their respective contracts:

Michel: 29 games 1,843 yards rushing, 13 tds, 144 yards receiving
Harris : 12 games, 703 yards rushing, 2 tds, 52 yards receiving

So yeah, Michel sucks and Harris is Derek Henry.

Bottom line: he almost certainly won't finish his rookie deal with as many yards as the "injury prone" and "terrible" Michel had through his rookie deal.

 

[203Pat]

Okay. He's played 12 games and he's halfway through his rookie contract. At this point in their respective contracts:

Michel: 29 games 1,843 yards rushing, 13 tds, 144 yards receiving
Harris : 12 games, 703 yards rushing, 2 tds, 52 yards receiving

So yeah, Michel sucks and Harris is Derek Henry.

Bottom line: he almost certainly won't finish his rookie deal with as many yards as the "injury prone" and "terrible" Michel had through his rookie deal.

Lol because Harris red shirted his entire year. Harris had about 30% of Sony's career rushing yards in 2020 alone. Harris is no superstar but he is a better running back than Sony. If Sony was a third round pick we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

[50-yard-line]

In all likelihood he ends up with 150 carries for 600 or so yards and his career as a Patriot is over and he bounces around a few teams for a couple years and that's that. I am just happy Sony and Maroney are the outliers for how Bill treats the RB position and not the norm.

Lol because Harris red shirted his entire year. Harris had about 30% of Sony's career rushing yards in 2020 alone. Harris is no superstar but he is a better running back than Sony. If Sony was a third round pick we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

150 carries for 600 yards? Lol. He was north of 900 yards in each of his first two years.

I'm sure there was some conspiracy against Harris that kept him on the bench almost all of 2019.

And you're right, draft position is the source of the hyperbolic negativity...which is a stupid way to evaluate a player.

 

[203Pat]

150 carries for 600 yards? Lol. He was north of 900 yards in each of his first two years.

I'm sure there was some conspiracy against Harris that kept him on the bench almost all of 2019.

And you're right, draft position is the source of the hyperbolic negativity...which is a stupid way to evaluate a player.

So we don't count last year when he lost his job to a guy who is still on the roster? In addition to being behind Harris the team just drafted another running back. Not sure how you think Sony will go for 900+ will all the extra guys in the RB group.

It wasn't a conspiracy. He was aged shirt rookie who didn't need to play. 2018 they lost Dion Lewis after losing Blount the year before and Sony needed to play.

Keep thinking Sony is a superstar if you want. Your opinion doesn't really make a difference.

 

[50-yard-line]

Your argument, that you have repeated ad nauseum, fails to address the fact that the Pats in 2018 wanted a RB who could start immediately to help with a Super Bowl run. Yes, BB drafts in the middle rounds or UDFA, and then sits the RB for most of their rookie year. In the case of Sony, BB chose a 1st round RB with the hope of plugging an immediate hole (which worked). Could it have worked better? Yes it could have. Could have we drafted a RB later in the draft, Yes, but the Pats took a higher draft pick in hopes of Sony contributing immediately. Picking it the middle rounds decreased the likelihood of the RB starting and playing all of 2018. Was BB guessing he only had TB12 for a few more years? Probably, BB is not dumb.

Yes I agree with you that BB and the Pats should not draft a RB in the 1st or 2nd round. I love Harris and Stephenson and they are 3rd ad 4th rounders - let's keep drafting like that. We are not football smarter than BB, so why did BB deviate from his long-standing plan of drafting RBs in lower rounds (especially after Maroney was not a shining star)? BB was gambling that Sony could contribute immediately without putting TB12's health at risk. It was a gamble. It seemed to work. Would Chubb have picked up the Pats system, protected TB12, and run hard in his first year? Who knows. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony? Yes. Would I prefer Chubb to Sony if he didn't quickly pick up the Pats offensive system and had not stepped in immediately in 2018? Not in a million years.

Sony is not a bad back, he was very good last year. No he is not good enough to pick up his 5th year option. Most people on this board agree with you that the Pats are better off drafting RBs in the middle rounds. Most people on this board agree with you that Chubb turned out better than Sony. The discussion would be more nuanced if you tried to explain why BB deviated and chose a RB in the 1st round. Arguments of Sony vs. Chubb, and "1st round RBs" versus "middle round RBs" are arguments you are making up - very few people disagree with you. You are yelling at the wind.

Great point: Michel came out of college with a reputation of being an exceptional pass protector.

This idea that we could have put anyone there and still romped to the SB is...aggravating. Give the kid his props. It's not like they took him in the top-10/20, and he's done and will do, as much for this team as Chandler Jones ever did, and you never see Jones getting the kind of crap that Sony gets.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

How many YPC does a running back have to average for you to be happy?

The only guy who had more total yards AND YPC than Michel last year was JK Dobbins (a rookie who was picked at 55 by Baltimore). Ravens are sky high on him and expecting huge things form him - and his first season wasn't as good as Sony's first season.

So many here seem to hate on the guy for two reasons: 1st Round Pick and picked ahead of Chubb. Michel's numbers are pretty damned good. YPC sucked in 2019, I agree, but the Patriots running game absolutely sucked in 2019. Every time they handed off the ball, the back seemed to have to go past someone in the backfield. The Pats were terrible.

That's not the point. It's wasting a 1st round pick and not taking an impact player at another position. We would have had similar production if we kept Blount or found some cheap RB. We had a great running game in 2018 not because of Sont Michel but because of a dominant OLine, abd blocking TE and blocking FB.

 

[50-yard-line]

So we don't count last year when he lost his job to a guy who is still on the roster? In addition to being behind Harris the team just drafted another running back. Not sure how you think Sony will go for 900+ will all the extra guys in the RB group.

It wasn't a conspiracy. He was aged shirt rookie who didn't need to play. 2018 they lost Dion Lewis after losing Blount the year before and Sony needed to play.

Keep thinking Sony is a superstar if you want. Your opinion doesn't really make a difference.

Never said or thought he was a "superstar." Your opinion is just that, as well. And hardly backed up by the fact that Michel wasn't redshirted, but Harris was, and Michel was still the lead back until he got hurt in 2020.

And I didn't say he would go for 900 this coming year - it will all depend on health, his and Harris's (who couldn't get through a season, either...it's that kind of position).

Harris was activated in October of 2020 when Michel went on IR. it's notable that when he returned from that quad injury, Michel averaged more YPC than Harris. I like Harris better as a pure runner than Michel, but Michel has always been the better blocker, and I think he could have been used better with some passes thrown his way. He can handle that well - he got more than 20 catches/year in his last 2 years at Georgia.

He's been a good and solid RB for the Pats and was instrumental in their SB run his rookie year. I doubt he's got many years left, certainly very few as a potential lead RB (I could see him becoming a 3rd-down back, though), but he did what he was brought in to do and I doubt BB regrets the pick.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's not the point. It's wasting a 1st round pick and not taking an impact player at another position.

They drafted Sony at the back-end of the 1st rd. It's not like they took him in the top 10. They drafted Wynn before Sony who was believed to be the LT of the future. People way overrate Bill overrating to Sony pick.

In 16 games in '18 Sony ran for 1267 yards, 12TDs and the won the SB.

What the F are people complaining about?

We would have had similar production if we kept Blount or found some cheap RB. We had a great running game in 2018 not because of Sont Michel but because of a dominant OLine, abd blocking TE and blocking FB.

Blount was 32 and washed up in 2018.

You cannot say some cheap so-and-so RB would have ran for 1267yds and 12TDs. If it was so easy all RBs would do it behind great lines.

 

[mgteich]

The drafted Sony at the back-end of the 1st rd. It's not like they took him in the top 10. They drafted Wynn before Sony who was believed to be the LT of the future. People way overrate Bill overrating to Sony pick.

In 16 games in '18 Sony ran for 1267 yards, 12TDs and the won the SB.

That's just not enough for a rookie RB.

 

[Ollie]

That's not the point. It's wasting a 1st round pick and not taking an impact player at another position. We would have had similar production if we kept Blount or found some cheap RB. We had a great running game in 2018 not because of Sont Michel but because of a dominant OLine, abd blocking TE and blocking FB.

in hindsight it might be considered unwise to draft a guy that high when others drafted lower have produced more and RBs aren't really valued high in the draft unless they are superstars but maybe the Pats thought Michel was. Lots of first round drafts picks don't go on to be superstars and all are considered wasted picks after the event.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

We need to re evaluate blount’s performance in the postseason if we’re going to claim he couldve done what Sony did in 2018. Including a key fumble in sb51 that set off a horrible series of events after starting to seize control of that game in the early going. Whereas Sony’s ball security was also spectacular in his sb run in addition to the yards amassed compared to blount other than the colts games.

 

[Ollie]

Okay. He's played 12 games and he's halfway through his rookie contract. At this point in their respective contracts:

Michel: 29 games 1,843 yards rushing, 13 tds, 144 yards receiving
Harris : 12 games, 703 yards rushing, 2 tds, 52 yards receiving

So yeah, Michel sucks and Harris is Derek Henry.

Bottom line: he almost certainly won't finish his rookie deal with as many yards as the "injury prone" and "terrible" Michel had through his rookie deal.

Harris didn't choose to pretty much sit out his entire rookie year. He is clearly a decent RB who looks promising after one year of starting. Sony actually was better than Harris last year when he played IMO but its taken 3 years for michel to get to the point of being the player i hoped he might be. I think people prefer Harris over Michel based on Michels first two years but mainly his second year when he didn't look that great.