Why was this year's draft so much better than last's?

[Ring 6]

Letting Okorafor convince him he'd be a viable player at all is a strike against him - in my opinion. Still can't believe that went down, but it is what it is. The guy likely sat across from him and lied, and then quit. Unreal. Should have put a red flag on him after what happened in Pittsburgh, and hopefully, that never happens again.

Why would you blame the player for the GMs decision to sign him. You are basically saying poor Wolf, he let the player tell him how good he was, and how can you expect a GM to make an independent decision and not believe the lie.

It’s amazing how far you go to absolve Wolf if any responsibility at all. Sign a bad player, it’s the players fault for lying. Don’t sign good players, no one wanted to play here. Lack of effort to pursue and recruit better players, surely he did things we just don’t know about.

 

[Ian]

Why would you blame the player for the GMs decision to sign him. You are basically saying poor Wolf, he let the player tell him how good he was, and how can you expect a GM to make an independent decision and not believe the lie.

It’s amazing how far you go to absolve Wolf if any responsibility at all. Sign a bad player, it’s the players fault for lying. Don’t sign good players, no one wanted to play here. Lack of effort to pursue and recruit better players, surely he did things we just don’t know about.

No, I hold him believing Okorafor as a strike against him, I don’t feel sorry for him.

And you talk like I’m on an island on the free agent thing when multiple reporters said the same with the team getting shut out last year with guys not wanting to come here. I’m not anyone who matters by any means, but this isn’t just a belief, it’s an educated opinion based on what was reported. If Belichick had still been here, maybe it’s a different story.

And as I’ve said, not every player the team inquired about is reported on. None of those guys text a reporter after every phone call. And typically the only ones discussed if they do pass annything along are usually the ones that are tangible. Not the ones where the player shuts down the conversation before it even gets started.

 

[Ring 6]

No, I hold him believing Okorafor as a strike against him, I don’t feel sorry for him.

And you talk like I’m on an island on the free agent thing when multiple reporters said the same with the team getting shut out last year with guys not wanting to come here. I’m not anyone who matters by any means, but this isn’t just a belief, it’s an educated opinion based on what was reported.

And as I’ve said, not every player the team inquired about is reported on. None of those guys text a reporter after every phone call. And typically the only ones discussed if they do pass annything anlong are usually the ones that are tangible. Not the ones where the player shuts down the conversation before it even gets started.

I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t just say he did a bad job signing the guys instead of saying it must be because the player lied to him. I’ve never heard that excuse used before.

I don’t agree that it was REPORTED that players wouldn’t come here. I saw it SPECULATED in the media, but never backed up. I would say the same to them. If we tried to sign players and they refused to come here, show me examples.

So now you are claiming not only are we the only team in history that free agents refused to sign with, but they wouldn’t even take our call? Thats just ridiculous.

 

[Ian]

I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t just say he did a bad job signing the guys instead of saying it must be because the player lied to him. I’ve never heard that excuse used before.

I don’t agree that it was REPORTED that players wouldn’t come here. I saw it SPECULATED in the media, but never backed up. I would say the same to them. If we tried to sign players and they refused to come here, show me examples.

So now you are claiming not only are we the only team in history that free agents refused to sign with, but they wouldn’t even take our call? Thats just ridiculous.

Ok, multiple guys have said that was the situation, with there being reports about the fact they were flat out turned down before the conversation even got started. If you don’t want to believe them, that’s totally cool.

Sort of can’t believe you think that would be the only time it’s ever happened in league history. I would say it’s happened plenty of times elsewhere and we never paid attention because we’ve never been in that position and were too focused on the team contending and/or winning championships.

2024 was I would say the ultimate kick in the pants. No QB and the best coach in the history of the game getting fired and replaced by someone most players don’t remember. I honestly can’t think of another team that fired a multi Super Bowl winning and future hall of fame coach and had a roster that bad. One year later, it looks worse to me than it was in real time. Especially seeing the reactions by players to both Maye and Vrabel this year. It’s night/day.

 

[borg]

I don’t agree that it was REPORTED that players wouldn’t come here. I saw it SPECULATED in the media, but never backed up. I would say the same to them. If we tried to sign players and they refused to come here, show me examples.

First off, as a free agent, a player doesn’t “refuse” to go to a team. He simply chooses another team.
Calvin Ridley is an example of a free agent who reportedly turned down a higher NE contract offer.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

GFC, this discussion is beyond pathetic.
They didn't do a good job last year, it MAY be because of Mayo and loserville, it may have been about $.
It's DONE, WHO CARES, Vrabel is in charge now.
Movin' along....

 

[Ring 6]

Ok, multiple guys have said that was the situation, with there being reports about the fact they were flat out turned down before the conversation even got started. If you don’t want to believe them, that’s totally cool.

Sort of can’t believe you think that would be the only time it’s ever happened in league history. I would say it’s happened plenty of times elsewhere and we never paid attention because we’ve never been in that position and were too focused on the team contending and/or winning championships.

2024 was I would say the ultimate kick in the pants. No QB and the best coach in the history of the game getting fired and replaced by someone most players don’t remember. I honestly can’t think of another team that fired a multi Super Bowl winning and future hall of fame coach and had a roster that bad. One year later, it looks worse to me than it was in real time. Especially seeing the reactions by players to both Maye and Vrabel this year. It’s night/day.

I have not seen that reported. I have not seen any players reported to have refused to speak to the patriots at all. Perhaps you can show me some examples.

Bad teams with cap space always sign expensive free agents. Certain players only want to to play for a SB contender at the end of their career. Some WRs look for QBs they want to play with but many too free agents sign with bad teams every year. Again do you have examples of teams that free agents shunned?

We think that because of what we became used to. But most franchises have reached that point numerous times. None had players tell them to F off. If no one wanted to sign here why would Dugger and Onwenu, Jennings, Uche, Okorafar, Bourne, Osborne, Henry, Hooper, Brissett, Gibson, Taki Taki, Hawkins, etc etc? We signed a similar amount of players last year they just weren’t good signings. You’ll have me believe they were happy to sign here, yet other players wouldn’t answer the phone, but no one knows who those mystery players are.

 

[Ring 6]

GFC, this discussion is beyond pathetic.
They didn't do a good job last year, it MAY be because of Mayo and loserville, it may have been about $.
It's DONE, WHO CARES, Vrabel is in charge now.
Movin' along....

You don’t have to participate in the conversation, Ian and I disagree and we are discussing it. Do you feel we need your permission?

 

[Ring 6]

First off, as a free agent, a player doesn’t “refuse” to go to a team. He simply chooses another team.
Calvin Ridley is an example of a free agent who reportedly turned down a higher NE contract offer.

I’ve stated Ridley as the only one we know of.

Ian is saying that players did refuse to come here, in fact wouldn’t even speak with us.
I have sen no evidence of that, other than Ridley.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

You don’t have to participate in the conversation, Ian and I disagree and we are discussing it. Do you feel we need your permission?

No Andy, most of us are sick and tired of YOU HAVING TO BE RIGHT EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You think you are smarter than EVERYONE ELSE, every day.
Don't you ever hurt yourself patting yourself on the back?
You act like you're 10 years old.
You're a Fkn Disgrace. GFY.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Ignored with the rest of the LOSERS.
BAH

 

[Ian]

I have not seen that reported. I have not seen any players reported to have refused to speak to the patriots at all. Perhaps you can show me some examples.

Bad teams with cap space always sign expensive free agents. Certain players only want to to play for a SB contender at the end of their career. Some WRs look for QBs they want to play with but many too free agents sign with bad teams every year. Again do you have examples of teams that free agents shunned?

We think that because of what we became used to. But most franchises have reached that point numerous times. None had players tell them to F off. If no one wanted to sign here why would Dugger and Onwenu, Jennings, Uche, Okorafar, Bourne, Osborne, Henry, Hooper, Brissett, Gibson, Taki Taki, Hawkins, etc etc? We signed a similar amount of players last year they just weren’t good signings. You’ll have me believe they were happy to sign here, yet other players wouldn’t answer the phone, but no one knows who those mystery players are.

I've listened to Curran, Perry, Bedard, etc. It was an issue. Wolf essentially said as much when he talked about the difference having Maye would make right around the end of the season when it came to attracting free agents, which by all accounts was an issue last spring.

Again, I'm not any smarter than anybody in here, but I do read a ton and listen to a lot as well and that was what people who had spoken to those "in the building" came away with.

I know you don't want to believe it, but it was a problem last March. And again, it was the same 4-13 record and the same personnel department. So it's not like anything changed there.

But with Vrabel and Maye this year, things were different. That's not a coincidence.

 

[Ring 6]

No Andy, most of us are sick and tired of YOU HAVING TO BE RIGHT EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You think you are smarter than EVERYONE ELSE, every day.
Don't you ever hurt yourself patting yourself on the back?
You act like you're 10 years old.
You're a Fkn Disgrace. GFY.

I don’t have to be right. I literally request facts to prove me wrong.
If they aren’t provided it don’t exist, I would assume I’m probably not wrong.

Funny though that while you are acting like a child, you project that on me.

Which one of us called the other names?

 

[Ring 6]

I've listened to Curran, Perry, Bedard, etc. It was an issue. Wolf essentially said as much when he talked about the difference having Maye would make right around the end of the season when it came to attracting free agents, which by all accounts was an issue last spring.

Again, I'm not any smarter than anybody in here, but I do read a ton and listen to a lot as well and that was what people who had spoken to those "in the building" came away with.

I know you don't want to believe it, but it was a problem last March. And again, it was the same 4-13 record and the same personnel department. So it's not like anything changed there.

But with Vrabel and Maye this year, things were different. That's not a coincidence.

You have to see that when I say i see that we signed everyone we pursued except Ridley and weren’t linked to anyone and your response is we pursued other guys but they wouldn’t take our call, and I say “ok prove me wrong, show me who” and you respond with dropping names that you listened to who you say think the same thing, that’s not really meeting the standard.
I don’t doubt that they THINK players thought this was a bad destination, and they are paid to voice their opinion, and encouraged to make the team look questionable. It was a common perception, but if none of them named any players, how is it more than speculation?
Wolf is the guy who screwed it up, I don’t think I accept his excuses, and I dont recall him ever saying players didn’t want too come here.


It’s not a matter of what I want to believe (again you belittle my take by implying bias) it’s a matter of what actually happened. We had possibly the worst off season any team has ever had.
Your response has been don’t blame Wolf and your reasons are all things that we have no actual proof of, just speculation that amounts to he wasn’t responsible for anything.

You didn’t respond to the question about why we signed so many players if no one wanted to come here.

Ultimately it seems like someone created speculation or a rumor to explain why Wolf failed so miserably. And the proof that it happens is simply the fact that it was speculated.


Perhaps we can find a common ground.
Can we agree that in analyzing whether Wolf is a good evaluator of talent, we can only judge him on the players he acquired? We surely can’t judge his skill by guessing who he might have.
So given the players he acquired in 2024 and what they did on the field, would we agree it was a bad job evaluating?

Lastly, can we agree that the job of a GM in attracting free agents is largely a salesman? If your speculation is true and players agents wouldn’t even speak to him, doesn’t that mean he lacks the necessary ability to sell players on his team, it’s vision and why they are headed in the right direction? Bad teams sign top FAs all the time. Why are we saying he’s the first one who couldn’t? Doesn’t that reflect badly on him? How would grade a salesman who can’t sell anything but tells you everyone says his product stinks so it’s not his fault?

 

[Ian]

You have to see that when I say i see that we signed everyone we pursued except Ridley and weren’t linked to anyone and your response is we pursued other guys but they wouldn’t take our call, and I say “ok prove me wrong, show me who” and you respond with dropping names that you listened to who you say think the same thing, that’s not really meeting the standard.
I don’t doubt that they THINK players thought this was a bad destination, and they are paid to voice their opinion, and encouraged to make the team look questionable. It was a common perception, but if none of them named any players, how is it more than speculation?
Wolf is the guy who screwed it up, I don’t think I accept his excuses, and I dont recall him ever saying players didn’t want too come here.


It’s not a matter of what I want to believe (again you belittle my take by implying bias) it’s a matter of what actually happened. We had possibly the worst off season any team has ever had.
Your response has been don’t blame Wolf and your reasons are all things that we have no actual proof of, just speculation that amounts to he wasn’t responsible for anything.

You didn’t respond to the question about why we signed so many players if no one wanted to come here.

Ultimately it seems like someone created speculation or a rumor to explain why Wolf failed so miserably. And the proof that it happens is simply the fact that it was speculated.


Perhaps we can find a common ground.
Can we agree that in analyzing whether Wolf is a good evaluator of talent, we can only judge him on the players he acquired? We surely can’t judge his skill by guessing who he might have.
So given the players he acquired in 2024 and what they did on the field, would we agree it was a bad job evaluating?

Lastly, can we agree that the job of a GM in attracting free agents is largely a salesman? If your speculation is true and players agents wouldn’t even speak to him, doesn’t that mean he lacks the necessary ability to sell players on his team, it’s vision and why they are headed in the right direction? Bad teams sign top FAs all the time. Why are we saying he’s the first one who couldn’t? Doesn’t that reflect badly on him? How would grade a salesman who can’t sell anything but tells you everyone says his product stinks so it’s not his fault?

OK, I'm not belittling you, and I also recall last year it wasn't Wolf, it was Kraft being cheap that you specifically mentioned in one exchange we had about this, the Wolf ire came later. And I'm not going to go dig up all the quotes and the links where the issue the team had attracting free agents was discussed by various writers. I know what I read/heard/transcribed.

So let me ask you this question:

Same record. Same front office. Same high number of cap space. Same Eliot Wolf.

What exactly is it that you believe made this offseason so different? You don't think the QB/Coach tipped the scale at all...?

 

[Ring 6]

Just to add some facts to my argument here is the list, largest contract to smallest of the 2024 Free Agents. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/_/year/2024

The top 4 when to teams that won 7,2,8,6 games and I believe all had rookie HCs.
Washington, Carolina, Arizona all teams with the same or worse records as us are well represented with 3, 4 and 4 of the top 50.
Why would 11 of the top 50 go to teams as bad or worse than us but their agents blackballed us and wouldn’t take our calls?

The speculation doesn’t add up to me.

 

[Captain Cliche]

Without going through the whole thread, I think Bill had such a stranglehold on things, they were completely clueless/rudderless when he was fired.

How do we do this? I dunno, Bill always handled it.
How do we do that? Bill always handled it.

The other point was...they went out of their way to "Not be like Bill."

Who was the woman referring to the "asterisk representing the ever changing North Star"?
What a **** show!!!

 

[Ring 6]

OK, I'm not belittling you, and I also recall last year it wasn't Wolf, it was Kraft being cheap that you specifically mentioned in one exchange we had about this, the Wolf ire came later. And I'm not going to go dig up all the quotes and the links where the issue the team had attracting free agents was discussed by various writers. I know what I read/heard/transcribed.

So let me ask you this question:

Same record. Same front office. Same high number of cap space. Same Eliot Wolf.

What exactly is it that you believe made this offseason so different? You don't think the QB/Coach tipped the scale at all...?

When you respond to my argument with “I know you don’t like him” that is belittling it. You know that

I still don’t know whether Kraft wouldn’t let Wolf spend, or Wolf chose not to. It could be both.
I’m not really debating that piece of it right now, and I said as much earlier, we don’t know.
I’m talking about Wolf’s talent as an evaluator. I’m talking about what he did with the money he did spend.
I believe that you believe that, but I also believe if you checked it out you would find it was speculation and no one ever named any players. It was really a “belichick left a mess no one wants to come here” mantra. It was never backed up. You aren’t really telling me talk radio and guys like berates are factual reporting not opinion, right?

What changed? Mike Vrabel clearly took over. Mayo wasn’t picking the groceries. Last years FA was Wolfs choices, this years were Vrabels.
I speculate that Kraft was also more willing to spend but we still have 67 mill left on the cap. But yes, the difference this year is a different person picked the players.

 

[Ring 6]

OK, I'm not belittling you, and I also recall last year it wasn't Wolf, it was Kraft being cheap that you specifically mentioned in one exchange we had about this, the Wolf ire came later. And I'm not going to go dig up all the quotes and the links where the issue the team had attracting free agents was discussed by various writers. I know what I read/heard/transcribed.

So let me ask you this question:

Same record. Same front office. Same high number of cap space. Same Eliot Wolf.

What exactly is it that you believe made this offseason so different? You don't think the QB/Coach tipped the scale at all...?

And no I don’t think that we went from agents refusing to take our call when every one knew we were taking a QB at 3 (and it was pretty clear who it was) to we are a destination after the guy we picked won 1 game that he played all of.
How many teams would you look at and say I put NE clearly superior to them because of the QB?
Sure we have hope, but he hasn’t dine anything to be an attraction.

And the bulk of our free agency was in defense. I don’t think Maye impacted that, and I find it hard to believe continuing the belichick scheme with belichick disciples made defensive players laugh at us, but scrapping it and putting in a new system with Vrabel and a 1st time DC made us a must go to destination.

 

[Ian]

When you respond to my argument with “I know you don’t like him” that is belittling it. You know that

Saying "I know you don't like him" isn't belittling - it's acknowledging something based on things you've said and moves me back to trying to stay on the basic facts that worked against him while understanding your opinion of him.

It was Mac Jones, Bailey Zappe and rumors of Brissett last offseason, and Mayo had no relationships to leverage. It left Wolf with a tough sell. I think if quality players would have signed, he would have spent the money. They didn't, so he got the guys who at least considered playing here and didn't spend money foolishly. It is what it is. His black mark is Okorafor, in my mind.

I still don’t know whether Kraft wouldn’t let Wolf spend, or Wolf chose not to. It could be both.
I’m not really debating that piece of it right now, and I said as much earlier, we don’t know.
I’m talking about Wolf’s talent as an evaluator. I’m talking about what he did with the money he did spend.
I believe that you believe that, but I also believe if you checked it out you would find it was speculation and no one ever named any players. It was really a “belichick left a mess no one wants to come here” mantra. It was never backed up. You aren’t really telling me talk radio and guys like berates are factual reporting not opinion, right?

What changed? Mike Vrabel clearly took over. Mayo wasn’t picking the groceries. Last years FA was Wolfs choices, this years were Vrabels.

I feel like Vrabel absolutely had a lot more influence in guys wanting to come here, which was both reported and spoken about directly by the players. It's also why I believe last offseason would have looked significantly different if Belichick had been given another shot in terms of their ability to sign quality players.

I speculate that Kraft was also more willing to spend but we still have 67 mill left on the cap. But yes, the difference this year is a different person picked the players.

And again, there was a guy those players believed in, both in the fact that they had a viable QB and, more importantly, a coach they liked and wanted to play for. Absolutely made a difference.

As for Wolf, I don't know what he did/didn't do in terms of his role this offseason, and they could very well fire him for all I know. I'm guilty of giving guys the benefit of the doubt and hoping for the best ... it's a personality flaw. But if it doesn't work out and they let him go, I'll turn the page.

For now, I'm rooting for this year's picks to succeed and that some of the guys from last year turn a corner this year. If they do, everybody wins, and I think most people in here would be fine with that.