Who Is Satisfied With Our Secondary?

[Deus Irae]

Gregory might be smart, but, overall he sucks. Ass. Not even remotely a starter. Only in a pinch.

I don't disagree with your post. However...

People bemoan this team's LB coverage ability, and they bemoan Gregory's ability, too, yet a guy who was benched for poor coverage has been signed, and we're supposed to just assume that the safety position has been fixed?

 

[Coach42]

Wilson couldn't cover last year, and he's a lesser player against the run at this point than Landry is, yet many people here last year were screaming "NO!" to Landry at the top of the fingertips and are now arguing that the Wilson signing is a solution to the safety problems.

Gotta love fans....

There are other things not to like about Landry other than his below average coverage skills. Adrian Wilson is no less of a coverage liability than Landry or say Bernard Pollard. Its about putting him in a position to play to his strengths (blitzing, run downs etc.) vs. his weaknesses (coverage). At the very least he brings elements that the secondary was absolutely lacking last year and he could certainly be an interesting chess piece. Having said all that, Tavon Wilson is going to need to take a strong step forward this year or we need to draft another safety.

 

[ausbacker]

I don't disagree with your post. However...

People bemoan this team's LB coverage ability, and they bemoan Gregory's ability, too, yet a guy who was benched for poor coverage has been signed, and we're supposed to just assume that the safety position has been fixed?

To a degree yes. You're looking at the acquisition of Wilson in a single light rather than applying the veteran leadership signing that I have no doubt, was to strengthen the secondary and help Tavon Wilson's development. Not all coaching must come from coaches.

 

[Ozymandias]

Adrian Wilson's signing may do to safety corps what Talib did for the CB corps. Wilson may not be good anymore but he can allow players to assimilate towards their proper roles, like Talib did for Arrington and McCourty's move to safety.

Gregory is not an in the box SS, he lacks the physicality to play along and patrol the line of scrimmage. He's also a liability in lateral coverage due to taking poor angles in his pursuit. Thus he is best suited to play deep safety with the play in front of him, in a back-up capacity to McCourty while also on special teams. This role is probably his best fit if he hopes to make an impact on their team. He's the most likely release candidate if a better prospect is added.

Tavon Wilson is not a FS as he does not possess the deep coverage awareness or the athletic range to be a center fielder. Most of his coverage mistakes occurred when he was playing in this role. Thus he's better suited to be an in the box SS, as he does possess some physicality (he's a good tackler) to patrol the LOS and match up with TEs and RBs. He may or not be a starter in this role.

Adrian Wilson is also a possibility in that above role but until shown otherwise he's likely a back-up 2 down player who might give the Patriots the flexibility to run a variance of their own big nickel. His biggest impact won't come from him directly (other than his veteran leadership), but as stated above his presence allowing the others to go into their proper roles.

Talib's arrival not only changed the production on the field, it also changed some of the Patriots' defensive philosophy. They played more of a single high safety look (McCourty's range is fabulous in this spot), and two physical press cover corners in Talib and Dennard. The missing piece in the secondary consistently last season was that second in-the-box safety who was an enforcer along the LOS and in the middle of field. Could A. Wilson be that guy at this stage in his career? Probably not, but he does give them an option. T. Wilson's developmental will be interesting to watch as he does possess the skills to be what they were missing last season.

The coaching staff has likely gotten a good look at T. Wilson and Dowling recently to gauge where both are at physically and in their developmental. If any high draft capital is spent on both of their positions, then the team obviously doesn't believe either one is the answer going forward. We'll see how it all unfolds.

 

[Deus Irae]

Adrian Wilson's signing may do to safety corps what Talib did for the CB corps. Wilson may not be good anymore but he can allow players to assimilate towards their proper roles, like Talib did for Arrington and McCourty's move to safety.

How will he be doing that from the bench? At this point, and until he shows otherwise, he's nothing more than an upgrade from Chung, and that's certainly not a fix to the position.

 

[Coach42]

How will he be doing that from the bench? At this point, and until he shows otherwise, he's nothing more than an upgrade from Chung, and that's certainly not a fix to the position.

I think the safety position is (at least one of them) is going to be a bullpen by committee approach. The Pats seem to have better pieces than last year assuming that Wilson (Tavon) improves and Wilson (Adrian) has something left in the tank. I don't think fixed is the right word but there are certainly reasons to be more optimistic.

 

[Ozymandias]

Adrian Wilson is also a possibility in that above role but until shown otherwise he's likely a back-up 2 down player who might give the Patriots the flexibility to run a variance of their own big nickel. His biggest impact won't come from him directly (other than his veteran leadership), but as stated above his presence allowing the others to go into their proper roles.

How will he be doing that from the bench? At this point, and until he shows otherwise, he's nothing more than an upgrade from Chung, and that's certainly not a fix to the position.

We're in agreement here, but nowhere was it stated that he would be a definitive starter. His impact on the team may have little to do with his play on the field directly, just like Talib. Aqib's greatest impact came from allowing his teammates to align in their proper spot to succeed whilst maximizing their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. That had little to do with what Talib did on the field (which was overrated by some). And again, as stated in the post you quoted, Wilson could have such an impact too without ever actually being an impactful player on the field.

Everything beyond that is just a guesstimate at this point.

 

[Deus Irae]

We're in agreement here, but nowhere was it stated that he would be a definitive starter. His impact on the team may have little to do with his play on the field directly, just like Talib. Aqib's greatest impact came from allowing his teammates to align in their proper spot to succeed whilst maximizing their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. That had little to do with what Talib did on the field (which was overrated by some). And again, as stated in the post you quoted, Wilson could have such an impact too without ever actually being an impactful player on the field.

Everything beyond that is just a guesstimate at this point.

The "Talib" signing resulted in on-the-field upgrades at 4 of the 5 starting/key secondary spots, while the A. Wilson signing may not produce any on-the-field starting/key upgrades at all.

 

[mgteich]

Where can we get a starting safety if you insist that our first two draft choices be wide receivers?

Unless Tavon Wilson has made one hell of an improvement since the end of the season, this team still needs a starting safety. It also needs a CB4 and CB5.

 

[Ozymandias]

The "Talib" signing resulted in on-the-field upgrades at 4 of the 5 starting/key secondary spots, while the A. Wilson signing may not produce any on-the-field starting/key upgrades at all.

Any scenario that pushes Gregory to a back-up role or off the roster completely should be considered a key upgrade, in my opinion.

In all seriousness, I get what you're stating and I agree. Wilson may not even make the roster as I stated when the team first signed him up. He could end up as another John Lynch-esque flame out or he could be the savvy veteran the back-end desperately needs. Some folks have selective memory and are thinking about his play from 5 years ago, instead 5 months ago. He's no lock for anything, but his physicality and toughness is needed in one way or another. With his leadership qualities, he unlike most players could actually improve the team from the bench if he rubs off on his young teammates the right way. From all indications in Arizona he did so admirably for the Cardinals. I don't see how having a veteran leader is such a bad thing, do you?

 

[Deus Irae]

Where can we get a starting safety if you insist that our first two draft choices be wide receivers?

I've said from the beginning, or at least pretty much from the beginning (I don't want to give an absolute when I may have forgotten an early call)...

WR/WR, S/WR or WR/S

I grant you that the Patriots incompetence this offseason, with regards to the WR position, does have me thinking that WR/WR is probably the best option of the three. My initial preference was S/WR, in that order.

To sum up:

S/WR with a trade up in round two was my first choice at the start. Once they started screwing up the WR position, that became less tenable in my mind, and it seems like they may need to go WR/WR just to try breaking even with last year.

My "best of a bad situation" scenario now is probably to see them trade down with a team like KC or Philly in a rd1/rd2 flip that nets them extra picks, following that up with using the extra picks to move up from their lower pick in rd 2, use both rd 2 picks on a WR, and then get Matthieu in rd 3.

 

[Deus Irae]

Any scenario that pushes Gregory to a back-up role or off the roster completely should be considered a key upgrade, in my opinion.

In all seriousness, I get what you're stating and I agree. Wilson may not even make the roster as I stated when the team first signed him up. He could end up as another John Lynch-esque flame out or he could be the savvy veteran the back-end desperately needs. Some folks have selective memory and are thinking about his play from 5 years ago, instead 5 months ago. He's no lock for anything, but his physicality and toughness is needed in one way or another. With his leadership qualities, he unlike most players could actually improve the team from the bench if he rubs off on his young teammates the right way. From all indications in Arizona he did so admirably for the Cardinals. I don't see how having a veteran leader is such a bad thing, do you?

No, I don't see the right veteran leadership as a bad thing (but see Thomas, Adalius/Springs, Shawn). I'm just not happy to see the team going into the season with holes, or potential holes, that didn't need to be there, and the mistakes (IMO) of this young season really start with the mistakes of signing Gregory last year and not locking Welker down in the past two seasons.

 

[mgteich]

So, you would use mid to high two seconds for wide receivers and hope that a a valuable defensive back addition falls to the end of the 3rd? BTW, CBS Sports has Mattieu going at the end of the 2nd to beginning of the 3rd.

I've said from the beginning, or at least pretty much from the beginning (I don't want to give an absolute when I may have forgotten an early call)...

WR/WR, S/WR or WR/S

I grant you that the Patriots incompetence this offseason, with regards to the WR position, does have me thinking that WR/WR is probably the best option of the three. My initial preference was S/WR, in that order.

To sum up:

S/WR with a trade up in round two was my first choice at the start. Once they started screwing up the WR position, that became less tenable in my mind, and it seems like they may need to go WR/WR just to try breaking even with last year.

My "best of a bad situation" scenario now is probably to see them trade down with a team like KC or Philly in a rd1/rd2 flip that nets them extra picks, following that up with using the extra picks to move up from their lower pick in rd 2, use both rd 2 picks on a WR, and then get Matthieu in rd 3.

 

[mgteich]

So, you would use mid to high two seconds for wide receivers and hope that a a valuable defensive back addition falls to the end of the 3rd? BTW, CBS Sports has Mattieu going at the end of the 2nd to beginning of the 3rd.

I would rather trade our 1st for a mid 2nd and a mid 3rd and trade our two 3rds to move into the 2nd. We would then have three seconds.

In the end, the three good men approach seems sound to me.

I've said from the beginning, or at least pretty much from the beginning (I don't want to give an absolute when I may have forgotten an early call)...

WR/WR, S/WR or WR/S

I grant you that the Patriots incompetence this offseason, with regards to the WR position, does have me thinking that WR/WR is probably the best option of the three. My initial preference was S/WR, in that order.

To sum up:

S/WR with a trade up in round two was my first choice at the start. Once they started screwing up the WR position, that became less tenable in my mind, and it seems like they may need to go WR/WR just to try breaking even with last year.

My "best of a bad situation" scenario now is probably to see them trade down with a team like KC or Philly in a rd1/rd2 flip that nets them extra picks, following that up with using the extra picks to move up from their lower pick in rd 2, use both rd 2 picks on a WR, and then get Matthieu in rd 3.

 

[Deus Irae]

So, you would use mid to high two seconds for wide receivers and hope that a a valuable defensive back addition falls to the end of the 3rd? BTW, CBS Sports has Mattieu going at the end of the 2nd to beginning of the 3rd.

I would rather trade our 1st for a mid 2nd and a mid 3rd and trade our two 3rds to move into the 2nd. We would then have three seconds.

In the end, the three good men approach seems sound to me.

I think we both feel that we're trying to plug holes that didn't need to be there, and doing so with an insufficient number of picks. Our difference seems to be mainly in our willingness to gamble on WR#2 v. Honey Badger dropping down into round 3. I'd rather gamble on the latter because I think this WR group is a trainwreck, while you'd rather gamble on the former because you're more concerned with the CB depth and more satisfied with the WR draft depth.

 

[mgteich]

Thank you for a fine presentation of our positions.

I think we both feel that we're trying to plug holes that didn't need to be there, and doing so with an insufficient number of picks. Our difference seems to be mainly in our willingness to gamble on WR#2 v. Honey Badger dropping down into round 3. I'd rather gamble on the latter because I think this WR group is a trainwreck, while you'd rather gamble on the former because you're more concerned with the CB depth and more satisfied with the WR draft depth.

 

[jsull87]

Who is satisfied with our secondary?

IMHO, the answer is "delusional homers or optimists".

Talib and Dennard starting CB's.

Arrington and Ras-I (healthy) at nickle

McCourty and Wilson at safety with Tavon learning the ropes as S number 3.

Am i satisfied with that? yes i am. Do i believe they can turn a corner and become a really top group? yes. Would i be surprised if there was an injury and they had troubles? no.

That is basically my thoughts on our secondary. Our best 4 IMO are very good and Arrington is experienced and is best in the slot. he gets forced outside or we have more injuries? we are in some trouble.

 

[supafly]

I think we'd all prefer to see another Safety or CB added.

Where/when/how and if Belichick agrees are the key variables.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Who is satisfied with our secondary?

IMHO, the answer is "delusional homers or optimists".

Why?

I'll tell you one thing, if Dennard, Arrington and Talib are healthy with McCourty at Safety paired alongside whoever out of what we have....I'm extremely happy. That's if we can generate any sort of pass rush.

So much so I feel zero need to take a DB high. It's unlikely any CB we draft will need to be a day one starter, so for me I don't see value with our top pick. That also leads me to believe that, with the extreme depth at WR and our lack of picks, we'll be trading out of day one and that would be the wisest decision.

If you want to worry your little head about anything, worry about the pass rush. For years the secondary has been left hung out to dry. The interior rush is our biggest issue and we've gone a little way to addressing it. I think a DT is a bigger need than a CB.

Safety depth in this draft is very good also...so I would happily see one taken...but again I'm not sure we need an immediate starter there.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

UK has a good point. Now that you can't bump, jam, or hit anybody who catches a pass (a little hyperbole there), it's a truly rare talent who can truly cover well for the whole field - the "shutdown"/island guys. There are a handful of them in the league, and really, we can't draft 'em. We just caint.

Now and then you hear the game has "passed someone by." I think BB's a bit too smart for that to just happen to him full-on -- that's why we go to the SB every second or third year. But in terms of improving at CB, you have to land a vet, unless you like the Pats' odds of calling it right at CB and landing a true cover corner. The closest thing we've landed in the last few years that you can truly say did the job was Asante Samuel, and he was not Revis. Bill's model that won 3 SBs has been eclipsed by rules changes to make physical secondary play impossible.

Getting the rush right shortens the field and cuts down on the "burns." That's gotten more promising lately. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a secondary upgrade. I just think it's more likely to happen through free agency, given this team's record in the draft. Not that every pick has been horrible; more that the difference-makers are so rare. Seems that otherwise you're comparing JAGs.