What if the Patriots had made the playoffs under Matt Cassel?

[crawhammer]

They had Brady in 2002, what happened?

In the decade between 2005 and 2013 when the team was paying Tom near top of the market QB money they won a lot of games, went to two Super Bowls but never won that ring.... what happened?

Every time Tom won a championship, every single one, he had a top five defense, a top special teams unit around him, had a good/great OL and good/great weapons.... but that was because of Tom and not Bill. Laughable...

You are baiting us into a Tom vs Bill debate, it's what you do on every thread you enter... even when the mods built you a perfectly good TB12 echo chamber so QB fanboys could ***********.

1. You didn't answer my question.

2. The defense choked against Eli Manning twice.

3. They had a top 5 defense in yards 0 times. They had a top 5 defense in points 3 times. You were 3 for 12 on that one.

4. Every time Tom won a championship in a Patriots uniform, every single one, he led a game-winning drive.

 

[TheRainMaker]

They had Brady in 2002, what happened?

Their defense was really bad that year. They were a 5-7 win team without some of Tom’s comebacks. He led the league in TD passes. However, while the defense was atrocious that game, he folded like a lawn chair at home vs the Jets on SNF in a game they were heavily favored.

In the decade between 2005 and 2013 when the team was paying Tom near top of the market QB money they won a lot of games, went to two Super Bowls but never won that ring.... what happened?

Bill’s poor roster management had a lot to do with it considering they were on the brink of a 3 peat and the roster was slowly deteriorating around their nucleus on D (Seymour, Wilfork, Warren). They really didn’t have many needs post 2004 Super Bowl but Bill ignored those needs and it caught up to them from 2005-2007. Bad drafts continued until 2010.

The defense that Bill constructed collapsed with the game was on the line against the Giants 3 straight times including the regular season. That’s two rings right there.

HOWEVER, unlike others, I seem to be the only poster that says Tom has had many blunders himself and missed out on MANY opportunities. In fact, I have rarely, if ever, seen a poster recall a time Brady messed up - because he has. Bill can’t take all the blame. The only time I can think of is the failure to throw to James White when he was immediately wide open on his strip sack in the Eagles Super Bowl loss. The other time was 2019 as Tom purposely kept throwing it in the dirt or chucked it deep well over a WR’s head.

There were a lot of moments in playoff games that Tom did stuff that made say “WTF is he doing”?

 

[venecol]

They had Brady in 2002, what happened?

His timeline was 2003-2019, so 2002 falls outside that. He's also talking about winning the division. 2002 is the only season w/ Brady at QB where Pats didn't win the division. That's a .944 winning division rate. That's incredible.

In contrast, Belichick has a winning division rate of .000 w/o Tom at QB. Why is that?

 

[Wozzy]

1. You didn't answer my question.

BB has a winning record with Cassel, JimmyG and Brissett with a torn tendon on his throwing hand. But that’s not what you want to hear, you want to hear how Brady is responsible for the sun rising in the east and the ocean tides. Ridiculous fan boy nonsense. Brady was in NE twenty years, they won a ring six times. According to your silly take, he was responsible every time they won a ring and every time they didn’t it was someone else’s fault.

2. The defense choked against Eli Manning twice.

The offense scored 14 and 15 points including Tom’s safety to start the last loss. They also had the games only turnovers. They wouldn’t have been in either game if not for the defense. Laughable take.

3. They had a top 5 defense in yards 0 times. They had a top 5 defense in points 3 times. You were 3 for 12 on that one.

They had a top eight defense in points allowed every time including when he was in Tampa and a top five defense when you include forced turnovers. A top five defense every time. You have trouble reading stats. They don’t tally points with yards, this isn’t fantasy football.

Defensive ranking every time Brady won a Super Bowl:

Points Allowed (PPD):
2001: 6th
2003: 1st
2004: 4th
2014: 8th
2016: 2nd
2018: 7th
2020: 6th

Forced Turnovers:
2001: 8th
2003: 2nd
2004: 3rd
2014: 14th
2016: 14th
2018: 5th
2020: 5th

Yeah, Tom did it with his superpowers. How many tackles did he have again?

4. Every time Tom won a championship in a Patriots uniform, every single one, he led a game-winning drive.

Because the team was well conditioned, well prepared and executed. Credit to the coaches. You simply don’t understand football, you dabble in hero worship.

 

[Wozzy]

His timeline was 2003-2019, so 2002 falls outside that. He's also talking about winning the division. 2002 is the only season w/ Brady at QB where Pats didn't win the division. That's a .944 winning division rate. That's incredible.

In contrast, Belichick has a winning division rate of .000 w/o Tom at QB. Why is that?

How convenient for Crawdaddy that he left out that one season.

BB had Brady his entire Patriot career… he drafted him and it lasted twenty years. That’s why.

 

[venecol]

BB had Brady his entire Patriot career… he drafted him and it lasted twenty years. That’s why.

In contrast, Belichick has a winning division rate of .000 w/o Tom at QB. Why is that?

Answer the question. Why hasn't Bill been able to win a division w/o Brady at QB? We're not talking about SB wins here. Simply winning a division against 3 other teams. Why hasn't he been able to put a "team" together to do that?

 

[Wozzy]

Their defense was really bad that year. They were a 5-7 win team without some of Tom’s comebacks. He led the league in TD passes. However, while the defense was atrocious that game, he folded like a lawn chair at home vs the Jets on SNF in a game they were heavily favored.

I don’t deny it was a bad team… but then I’m not spouting the foolish take that with Brady all things are possible. And please don’t say that’s not what the fanboys are saying… it’s what they argue on every damn thread.

Bill’s poor roster management had a lot to do with it considering they were on the brink of a 3 peat and the roster was slowly deteriorating around their nucleus on D (Seymour, Wilfork, Warren). They really didn’t have many needs post 2004 Super Bowl but Bill ignored those needs and it caught up to them from 2005-2007. Bad drafts continued until 2010.

Good grief man… they went undefeated in 2007 until the final game… they won 21 games straight… don’t be daft. The roster is 53 men, there’s no place to put back up players in cold storage until you’re ready for them. Veteran teams win, they know how to win… you can’t bemoan “they got old” in one of the most impressive winning streaks in pro football history. Patriots fans… not entitled at all

The defense that Bill constructed collapsed with the game was on the line against the Giants 3 straight times including the regular season. That’s two rings right there.

The offense couldn’t score and turned the ball over. In every Super Bowl they played in until the Rams in 2018 those Giants Super Bowls were the lowest point total any Patriot defense had given up.

HOWEVER, unlike others, I seem to be the only poster that says Tom has had many blunders himself and missed out on MANY opportunities. In fact, I have rarely, if ever, seen a poster recall a time Brady messed up - because he has. Bill can’t take all the blame. The only time I can think of is the failure to throw to James White when he was immediately wide open on his strip sack in the Eagles Super Bowl loss. The other time was 2019 as Tom purposely kept throwing it in the dirt or chucked it deep well over a WR’s head.

There were plenty of times the rest of the team carried Tom, the Texans playoff game in 2016 is a great example. The defense kept them in the game and Dion Lewis scored on a screen pass, a run and a kickoff return. Tom played poorly that game, he needed help… the definition of how it’s teams that win rings.

There were a lot of moments in playoff games that Tom did stuff that made say “WTF is he doing”?

It takes a team, despite what rabid fanboys think. He has 7 rings, extremely impressive… if it were all him he’d have 23 rings… he doesn’t. It’s a team game.

 

[Wozzy]

Answer the question. Why hasn't Bill been able to win a division w/o Brady at QB? We're not talking about SB wins here. Simply winning a division against 3 other teams. Why hasn't he been able to put a "team" together to do that?

Because it’s an incredibly small sample size and the two times he didn’t have Brady he was rebuilding the entire roster.

They don’t win a ring in 2001 without Adam Vintieri or Richard Seymour or plenty others… Brady was not alone it that regard.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Matt cassel is clearly a polarizing figure

 

[Wozzy]

Matt cassel is clearly a polarizing figure

The haters have to keep up the narrative that BB can’t win with another QB and that Tom has magic powers… not that he simply played great on the best teams.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The haters have to keep up the narrative that BB can’t win with another QB and that Tom has magic powers… not that he simply played great on the best teams.

Haha its all good. Im enjoying the discussions

 

[SHOWTIME15]

1. You didn't answer my question.

2. The defense choked against Eli Manning twice.

3. They had a top 5 defense in yards 0 times. They had a top 5 defense in points 3 times. You were 3 for 12 on that one.

4. Every time Tom won a championship in a Patriots uniform, every single one, he led a game-winning drive.

2. Tom failed to show up in SB 42, 46 and fumbled the ball with game on the line vs the Eagles. Stop making excuses. The defense in 2007 and 2011 was good enough to win in those super bowls. But Tom laughed at the Giants D and then proceeded to play horribly in the biggest game in NFL history. Those are not clutch moments for him.

4. This is what every QB who has ever won a super bowl has done...

 

[venecol]

Because it’s an incredibly small sample size and the two times he didn’t have Brady he was rebuilding the entire roster.

0-9 sample size. Sounds like a cop out but Ok.

 

[venecol]

So we know that Woffy is good at moving goal posts.

Every time Tom won a championship, every single one, he had a top five defense, a top special teams unit around him, had a good/great OL and good/great weapons...

They had a top eight defense in points allowed every time including when he was in Tampa and a top five defense when you include forced turnovers. A top five defense every time. You have trouble reading stats.

Defensive ranking every time Brady won a Super Bowl:

Points Allowed (PPD):
2001: 6th
2003: 1st
2004: 4th
2014: 8th
2016: 2nd
2018: 7th
2020: 6th

Forced Turnovers:
2001: 8th
2003: 2nd
2004: 3rd
2014: 14th
2016: 14th
2018: 5th
2020: 5th

Even your revised statement is incorrect. You have trouble reading stats.

 

[Wozzy]

0-9 sample size. Sounds like a cop out but Ok.

9 what… seasons… we were talking above New England, now you’re including Cleveland?

He coached three seasons in New England without Tom, four if you count the season Tom got hurt in 2008 where they won 11 games. You’re moving the goalposts.

 

[Wozzy]

So we know that Woffy is good at moving goal posts.




Even your revised statement is incorrect. You have trouble reading stats.

Combine points allowed to forced turnovers and what results is a top five defense.

2014 is the only debateable season and they started slow… we’re onto Cincinnati remember?

The Pats defense gave up the fewest points per game in the entire 2014 postseason and forced the 2nd most turnovers.

How many tackles, sacks and interceptions did Brady make… real question?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

How many tackles, sacks and interceptions did Brady make… real question?

Brady plays quarterback and is responsible for much of the offense and passing. He doesn’t play defense.

American football - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Wozzy]

Brady plays quarterback and is responsible for much of the offense and passing. He doesn’t play defense.

Yet somehow is wholly responsible for everything… fanboy fantasyland.

 

[venecol]

The issue I see is that you're arguing with yourself. There isn't a single poster who has ever said that it isn't a team sport. Even Brady has said it's the ultimate team sport.

What you fail to acknowledge, over and over and over again, is that different positions have more effects and influences on the outcome of games. You seem to view the QB, gunner, and LB as being equal, since they all have a role to play. You continuing to state that it's a team game over and over again, is just lazy, since no one is saying otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that the QB position is universally considered as the most important in this team sport. You can have a defense that doesn't allow any points, but if you don't score, you've got nothing. The game is about scoring. The QB is the main contributor to the scoring game. Therefore, the QB is the main position in the game. Of course you need D and ST to do their jobs since they're a part of the game, but nobody in those 2 groups has the same weight of the QB.

Your use of a handful of non-elite QBs as proof that you don't need a top 10 or elite QB to win SBs is also pathetically weak. It's fine, you continue to believe that Bill can win w/ just any QB, while we wait for it to actually happen.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The issue I see is that you're arguing with yourself. There isn't a single poster who has ever said that it isn't a team sport. Even Brady has said it's the ultimate team sport.

What you fail to acknowledge, over and over and over again, is that different positions have more effects and influences on the outcome of games. You seem to view the QB, gunner, and LB as being equal, since they all have a role to play. You continuing to state that it's a team game over and over again, is just lazy, since no one is saying otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that the QB position is universally considered as the most important in this team sport. You can have a defense that doesn't allow any points, but if you don't score, you've got nothing. The game is about scoring. The QB is the main contributor to the scoring game. Therefore, the QB is the main position in the game. Of course you need D and ST to do their jobs since they're a part of the game, but nobody in those 2 groups has the same weight of the QB.

Your use of a handful of non-elite QBs as proof that you don't need a top 10 or elite QB to win SBs is also pathetically weak. It's fine, you continue to believe that Bill can win w/ just any QB, while we wait for it to actually happen.

So you are now going to root against the Patriots to not win the division or super bowl just so you can make a point about Brady...got it.

There are many factors that affect why a team wins a division, including the QB. Sparano won the division with frickin' Jay Fiedler in 2008, and if it weren't for Rodney, Maroney, and Thomas injuries we probably would have won the division that year. It also helped Brady and Belichick that the AFCE was a joke from 2001-2020. Brady has never had competition from an elite QB in the same division...ever, with the exception of 2020 when he lost the division race to Drew Brees (and Brees was cooked after his rib injury so whether he was elite that year is arguable).