What Do You Expect From Defensive Scheme?

[SHOWTIME15]

I think losing Hightower and Jones, and not having Rivers as an option as a pass rusher, hurt this defense big time. Knocking on wood and hoping those guys can stay healthy this year.

It wasn’t just the HT and Jones injuries - it was losing them plus Nink’s retirement and losing Sheard in free agency.

 

[Username]

I expect the game thread to be toxic everytime the defense fails to make a play, and Elandon Roberts to be the new scapegoat for not playing far beyond his actual limitations and ability, like somehow it's his fault.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

That is a pretty fair point.

I am still amazed they improved the defense that much over the year even after losing their second most important player next to Gilmore. So even though I often use the word "over-designed" I still think 2017 was Patricias best coaching job given what he had to work with.

The schedule became a lot easier after the Carolina game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is a pretty fair point.

I am still amazed they improved the defense that much over the year even after losing their second most important player next to Gilmore. So even though I often use the word "over-designed" I still think 2017 was Patricias best coaching job given what he had to work with.

He did a great job. The fact that many on this board think he didn't are clueless.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Do you really see that trend continuing? Why?

Have you been watching Pats games over the last ten years?

The Pats best pass rusher is in Arizona, I will grant you that Clayborn is an upgrade over anyone they had last year, but especially against mobile QB, the Pats don't rush, they try to contain, give up easy completions, and still get beat around the edge by the QB when he runs out of the pocket.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The schedule became a lot easier after the Carolina game.

Of course you don't want to give Patricia any credit.....

 

[maineman209]

I don’t see the pass defense as a whole lot better. The run D will improve by miles though.

They're not independent.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Have you been watching Pats games over the last ten years?

The Pats best pass rusher is in Arizona, I will grant you that Clayborn is an upgrade over anyone they had last year, but especially against mobile QB, the Pats don't rush, they try to contain, give up easy completions, and still get beat around the edge by the QB when he runs out of the pocket.

...and somehow they finish in the top 10 in scoring defense every year.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Of course you don't want to give Patricia any credit.....

I’m not saying that. I am saying you need to look at the “defensive improvement” last year in light of the schedule. All that improvement went out the window when they faced a good offense in the super bowl.

 

[maineman209]

I think it’ll better than last year. With the return of Hightower, the replacement of Lee & Flowers with Rivers & Davis (an upgrade IMO), the addition of Claiborn, and Jonathon Jones coming back (excellent special teams and good slot CB).

I think losing Hightower and Jones, and not having Rivers as an option as a pass rusher, hurt this defense big time. Knocking on wood and hoping those guys can stay healthy this year.

Don't forget the still-on-the-job retirements of Branch and Harris.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

...and somehow they finish in the top 10 in scoring defense every year.

That might have more to do with the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins than the actual defense. The last time we saw this defense, they gave up 41 points to a back up QB, and forced the opposition to punt exactly once!

 

[Ring 6]

That's kinda what I thought would happen when everything settled down after Patricia left and it was obvious that Flores would stay. Patricia seemed to be over-designing his schemes to have an answer for everything which on the one hand is good because you can attack the weakness of what you are seeing specifically. On the other hand since players are just humans it has more potential to result in miscommunication and less instinctual player because everyone has to be on the same page regarding the specific situation they are in.

Obviously to the extreme both approaches are not good because if schemes are too simplistic you are solely reliant on the talent of players to make plays. But hearing what HT has said so far this year I think Patricia might have balanced things too far to the "prepared for everything" end of the spectrum and Flores is moving that needle a little bit closer to the center.

All that being said lets not forget that Flores is in his first year as DC. He will learn a lot this season and we won't see "truly his defense" until late this year or maybe even next year.

I take Hightower’s comments with a grain of salt as I would any player on this topic. Defensive players always want to be aggressive and play fast and they always see that opportunity in every scheme.
I see those comments more as Hightower chomping at the bit after missing most of last year than an insight into what we will do schematically.
I expect the changes we make will be based upon the players we have and what they can do.
Everyone loves aggressive blitzing until it is ineffective blitzing then you have shorthanded coverage getting burned.
The real answer is a mix of everything and timing it well.

 

[maineman209]

All this talk of, "The defense was too complex under Patricia and Flores will make it simpler and better." is misguided.

Maybe last year Fat Matt needed to scheme more to cover up the weaknesses. Who knows but we do know because of injuries, the 2017 D was not as good as the 2016 D.

Injuries - PLUS the loss of Sheard, Long and Nink. PLUS Branch and Harris falling off a cliff.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I’m not saying that. I am saying you need to look at the “defensive improvement” last year in light of the schedule. All that improvement went out the window when they faced a good offense in the super bowl.

No. You judge the defense based on how they fair vs the offense they face and their normal.

If a team is scoring 35 a game and the D allows 27ppg then it did its job.

With a couple of exceptions, if you look at the teams they faced they consistently allowed less points than the team scored on average.

 

[Ring 6]

That might have more to do with the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins than the actual defense. The last time we saw this defense, they gave up 41 points to a back up QB, and forced the opposition to punt exactly once!

The jets bills and dolphins average ppg is not significantly lower than the division opponents of any other top 10 defense.
Adjusting for that, however minute it is, wouldn’t change anything.
Top 10 defenses have games where they allow a lot of points.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That might have more to do with the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins than the actual defense. The last time we saw this defense, they gave up 41 points to a back up QB, and forced the opposition to punt exactly once!

OK take those teams out and look at the other teams they faced, when they played them, their scoring average and how many points the NEP allowed vs them.

 

[Thelonious]

Often (not always, of course) when we hear praise for schemes which are simplified so that players can play more instinctively and thus play faster, it's players talking, not coaches. Coaches, theoretically, would be more objective about the virtues of such an approach, but maybe some of them are just too lazy to scheme up something more complex, or to do the work of coaching the players up to make it work. You usually hear such talk, I think, from the defensive side, except perhaps for a young quarterback or on behalf of a player with limited cognitive skills, or perhaps for running backs, whose instincts are more in play than for a center, say, who absolutely must think things through. To the extent that there is an argument here, it's difficult to say which side is "right." There has to be a balance, I suppose, and each individual case is very different.

The question isn't limited to sports, of course. Who hasn't thought that if the blowhard bosses would just stop with all the d----d bright ideas and get out of the way, we could do our jobs better. I had this firmly in mind when I was a department head: my job was in large part to protect the group from the nonsense (and its associated paperwork!) which came down to us from above me in the pay grade, so they would free to get on the with the job. This works, if you've hired the right people, and that is no doubt true in sports as well.

Sorry for the rambling: I'm stuck here waiting for a d----d phone call.

 

[maineman209]

Because they lack athletic passrushers and the secondary lacks playmakers.

You'd think that if BB ever figures that out, the Pats will have a defense that's ranked in the top-10, if not the top-5, in fewest points allowed, like, maybe 83% of the time!

Oh, wait.

 

[maineman209]

I’m not saying that. I am saying you need to look at the “defensive improvement” last year in light of the schedule. All that improvement went out the window when they faced a good offense in the super bowl.

Well, it "went out the window" when the Pats faced a very good RPO scheme in the SB - even better-executed than what KC had run against them in week-1.

 

[Nunchucks]

You'd think that if BB ever figures that out, the Pats will have a defense that's ranked in the top-10, if not the top-5, in fewest points allowed, like, maybe 83% of the time!

Oh, wait.

Its the players he has. You think he likes watching teams go up and down the field? His defense allows that because the players are unable to make plays. Last year, the defense was meh at getting turnovers...The bend don't break philosophy is predicated on turnovers and stops in the red zone. When one of those pieces fails, the defense becomes a liability, as we saw in the superbowl.

In 2014, the Patriots defense was much better at turnovers because the defense had a lot more playmakers.

We are much closer to 2017 than 2014 in terms of playmakers on the defense.