Why Did We Expect Better Than 50% In The 3 years After Brady?

[cmasspatsfan]

Belichick also doesn't have the highest season winning % of the Super Bowl era even when Brady was here. That's Madden's record.

For me I think the most compelling argument against Bill as GOAT coach is his coaching tree. An all time great coach ought to elevate his staff and make them better. Just about all of Bill's staff over the years have faceplanted away from BB most recently Josh McDaniels.

This is Andy Reid's tree:

Andy Reid's coaching tree: Sean McDermott, John Harbaugh lead list of NFL success stories | Sporting News Canada

Andy Reid's coaching tree: Sean McDermott, John Harbaugh lead list of NFL success stories

www.sportingnews.com

Compare that to Bill's. I think we all know his coaching tree ain't pretty....

Coaching tree is a dumb argument, is he supposed to pass on his powers by osmosis to guys that have coached under him? If guys under him fail, that's on them, nothing to do with BB, he's not responsible to make those guys great coaches.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Coaching tree is a dumb argument, is he supposed to pass on his powers by osmosis to guys that have coached under him? If guys under him fail, that's on them, nothing to do with BB, he's not responsible to make those guys great coaches.

Yet the battle cry is that he made Brady into a great quarterback

 

[Ring 6]

You go ahead and try. You haven’t made any cogent argument that Bill is the greatest but continue to repeat it as FACT as some lame trump card. I guess you listen to talk radio, Max Kellerman, etc and draw your recency biased opinions from them.

Again, keep forgetting you aren’t a serious person.
Belichick has won 6 SBs in the free agency era. That’s a fact.

Halas has more regular season wins than Belichick despite 10-14 game seasons (didn’t have playoffs besides championship). Higher winning percentage

He coached 40 years. Length of season is irrelevant.

. 6 rings as a coach and 8 as a GM.

He won 5 NFL championships, not 6. Won them against leagues as small as 8 teams.

He won championships in four different decades with four different QBs.

So? He won 5 in 38 years, belichick has won 6 in 29.

He founded the league.

Irrelevant to best coach/gm

The NFC Championship Trophy is named after him.

Irrelevant

 

[Ring 6]

Yet the battle cry is that he made Brady into a great quarterback

He COACHED him. Brady says he couldn’t have had the success he did without Belichick.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh man that’s a great point. All of these damning, indisputable conclusions showing Halas is superior to Belichick cannot be good for Andy. I feel bad for those cheap, dirty, drywall slabs in his friend’s trailer…I bet he’s putting his fist through them as we type.

So you are back to being a **** again I see.
It’s funny actually because you are living proof that when you know you are losing you resort to making up personal insults, because it’s all you got.
Imagine a grown man making something up to try to insult another, just because he is emasculated in a discussion.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He COACHED him. Brady says he couldn’t have had the success he did without Belichick.

That’s cute. Did he say that with his Super Bowl 55 MVP trophy in hand?

Why can’t Bill COACH any other QB to any level of success?

 

[Ring 6]

That’s cute. Did he say that with his Super Bowl MVP trophy in hand?

Why can’t Bill COACH any other QB to any level of success?

He spent the bulk of his career with the dynasty he built having Brady as his QB.
He doesn’t lose credit for that. Extending the dynasty to win the 4th 5th and 6th led to a need to rebuild.
It’s really not that hard to understand.

 

[foxboroughfraser]

This is the correct answer.

There were people in this very forum who that honestly believed the Pats were better off sacrificing a ring and trading Brady if it meant keeping Garopollo.

That's how much they bought into the myth that Belichick can win with anyone. They honestly thought that they could plug in any QB and "continue the dynasty", therefore they were better off moving on Brady earlier.

Lol turns out Seattle and Pittsburgh where better at holding their teams together after losing their (in the case of Wilson, not even) HoF qb whereas here we are struggling to string Ws together.

 

[NormZauchin]

Some do seem to have a problem saying that. Any coach who wins multiple super bowls needs to have a good QB that fits the system they're running. How about the great QBs with one or none super bowls, you think a great coach might have got them one or two or three?

Joe Gibbs is the exception. He won three Super Balls with three different quarterbacks, none of whom are in the Hall of Fame or will ever be.

 

[Dedhampatsfan]

I also wonder about the retirement of Ernie Adams. But since nobody was sure what he was doing, his departure is hard to evaluate.

I also wonder about the retirement of Ernie Adams. But since nobody was sure what he was doing, his departure is hard to evaluate.

Ernie Adams and Dante were huge losses. It's understandable where we're at with the loss of these two and recovery will take time.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Joe Gibbs is the exception. He won three Super Balls with three different quarterbacks, none of whom are in the Hall of Fame or will ever be.

Clearly Joe Gibbs was an exceptional coach who led some very talented teams to victory. The three Redskin QB's were very good for relatively short periods of time and benefitted from playing behind a historically great OL. Brady being so good for so long was the true exception which should not take away from BB's achievements.

 

[NormZauchin]

He's been mentioned plenty, he was a great coach for that time in the NFL. Are we passed BB's time? That's the question, some seem to have already answered.

When Gibbs came back to coach the Redskins over a decade after his retirement, his record was 30-34, with two playoff appearances and a 1-2 record to show for it. He did not fall off a cliff, but he didn't enjoy the same level of success as he did from 1981 to 1992, during which Washington made the playoffs eight out of eleven years and won three Super Bowls. When he retired after his second stint, there was a lot of discussion about the game having passed him by. Shula coached 22 years after his last Super Bowl victory and Landry 11 years. Gibbs, Shula, and Landry left the game in their sixties. Does a 71-year-old Belichick have a legitimate chance of winning another title?

 

[lancerman]

So few things more annoying than people throwing around the Cassel line.

We went 11-5 with Cassel but everyone just loves to ignore that we produced half the offense of the previous year and lost to every decent AFC team which is why we missed the playoffs. Finally people love to use this as some sort of accomplishment because it was Cassel but then conveniently ignore that Cassel won his division and made the probowl with Haley and a worse Chiefs team. If that is the measuring stick is Haley some genius coach?

As for the 3-1, anyone can fluke a few wins. We have seen it happen with many backup QBs. Not to mention the desire to hold it together knowing Brady was coming back.

We should have been a good team in year 4. Anyone who says they expected differently is flat out lying. I have seen many coaches turn teams around in much shorter time frames. Is Bill not the greatest thing since sliced bread? How can he not do what Carrol has done from basically year 1?

As some of the posts said, I was under the delusion that Belichick knew what he was doing and had a plan to win when he ran Brady out of town. It turns out it was all pure ego and dilusions.

Yup. People ignore the 2008 team had one of the easiest schedules in Patriots history. They played 2 divisions where the best team between all 8 of the teams was 9-7. The year before when they went 16-0 they played these playoff teams

1. Colts
2. Chargers
3. Steelers
4. Cowboys
5. Giants
6. Redskins

and they beat a 7th playoff in the Jaguars in the actual playoffs.

The Packers were the only quality team they didn't get one win off of that year.

Then the next year we couldn't beat anyone good and a 1-15 team from that year ended up jumping us to make the playoffs.

People love to write that as "Bill Belichick went 11-5 with Cassel". It reallys should be "Bill Belichick showed he couldn't make the playoffs with an easy schedule with the best team he ever coached if you replaced Brady with a pretty competent back up"/

I'm not going to relitigate the Belichick vs Brady divorce drama. But the 2008 season was always a giant mirage used to boost Bill's reputation at the expense of Brady and it's pretty clear Bill and his coaching staff got high on thier own supply and thought they'd win with anyone and that season was used to sell the fanbase on that notion.

 

[lancerman]

I didn’t expect the offensive line to fall apart like it has. Very quickly.

If they had kept Thuney and Mason might it had made a difference? Or when Brady and Scar left was that the end of plug and play oline days? The days when the Patriots were the envy of every team when it came to drafting oline. Kind of like the way fans looked at the Steelers and their wr picks?

Scar was obviously a great teacher, can’t think of a player who played for him that didn’t respect him. Brady had the best qb movement inside the pocket ever. No debate there. So many variables of what made this thing go. And then it went up in smoke almost overnight.

It's very obvious now that Scar was the reason we seemingly could plug and play with the offensive line the way we did and Brady's footwork in later years was also immaculate and made everyones life that much easier. Without Scar we always see very clear weaknesses on the line that can be exploited, and none of the QB's who played behind it (Cam, Stidham, Jones, Zappe, Hoyer) could elevate it.

 

[lancerman]

In fairness Jimmy looked incredible in the limited time he played and there was no reason to think he was so injury prone. I wanted the Patriots to figure out a way to bridge between Brady and JG.

He was aked to play 4 games and lasted 1.5.

Loved the dude, but he failed the first time we needed to rely on him to fulfill his duties as a back up. We couldn't know he was THAT badly made of glass from that, but we should have gotten some inkling that he wouldn't be the standard of consistency that Brady was.

 

[Patjew]

I love BB SO much, but his arrogance with the hiring of the coaching staff last year killed this version of the Pats. We all make mistakes; that was his biggest one IMO, and one you can’t come back from because it destroyed his promising young QB.

 

[lancerman]

I do get it.

The fans of the patriots are very special. We deserve better than 50% and being in the playoffs in the 3 years after Brady is gone. Our organization is sooo good that we should win playoff games and contend for the SB without a QB.

We took Brady out of the equation and remained a playoff contender. PERSONALLY, I don't expect more until we get a top 10 QB. IMO, it not reasonable to EXPECT to win playoff games without a top 10 QB, certainly not without a top 15 QB.

If Bill Belichick is the GOAT HC, then he should be able to put together a team that can make the playoffs consistently in an era where 7 teams in each conference make the playoffs. He should be able to fix an offensive line that has by every metric been awful. He should be able to put together a modern passing game that isn't bottom of the league.

Those go beyond QB. As a certain someone mentioned, the Steelers are winning despite a mediocre QB. The Jets are putting some wins together with an awful QB. Seattle made the playoffs with Geno Smith who we thought was a bag boy for years.

If losing Brady is good enough to excuse 4 years of incompetency (and we are in year 4) and having that be the worst season so far... to me that says something about how good the people running the show are.

 

[Thunderhead]

I love BB SO much, but his arrogance with the hiring of the coaching staff last year killed this version of the Pats. We all make mistakes; that was his biggest one IMO, and one you can’t come back from because it destroyed his promising young QB.

Best post I've read on this board in a long time given who it's coming from. Speaks volumes.

 

[MahomestoKelce]

He's been mentioned plenty, he was a great coach for that time in the NFL. Are we passed BB's time? That's the question, some seem to have already answered.

As a coach only like Reid, Tomlin, Harbugh etc? I would say no. He has slipped a little. But is still a top ten coach.

As a GM with final say? He should not get final say on drafting, trades, scouting, and any sort of signings (FA or team members). It can maybe be a concensus decision with a new/current personnel director.

If Belichick wants final say on everything, Kraft has a very difficult decision to make. Team first has always been the mantra. Meaning, what's best for a team's future should come before anything/anyone else. You can't keep a gm out of loyalty and take the risk more drafts/signings will go bad.

I do wonder if Kraft is worried about the optics of it ending "badly". Especially since Brady didn't finish his career in New England. He seems like a very loyal owner where relationships are important. But there has to be a breaking point.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Who is we?
Who are the 50.1%'ers