Westhoff accuses Patriots of building sideline wall, too

[Deus Irae]

If the forming the human wall on the sideline was OK why would the Jets increase Alosi's punishment?

Because he supposedly lied about ordering it done.

 

[PatsSox363804]

They are just a worthless organization. "Hey lets say Pats, that will get the media off of us!" Maybe they can prove it with some of their illegal sideline video from 06 that the league didnt care about.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

That's downright crazy.

So the wrong people were in the wrong area and that means "literally nothing" to you.

Only people who HAVE to be close to the field should be close to the field. Papering the sideline with others (non-players who, let's face it, the coach couldn't give a damn about losing in the game) is not ok - - it would ENCOURAGE throwing bodies in the way as fodder with no repercussions for losing valuable players to injury.

How is that going over your head?

It's not going over my head. There are people in the second 6 foot zone all game long who are not permitted there. Every game. Every team. Pretty much every minute.

Either human walls are permitted or they are not. If they are, making a big deal because it's person X and not person Y is irrelevant to me.

The making of a human wall strikes me as a bad thing, because it encourages what happened in the Jets game. But if it's not against the rules, I don't have a problem with it just because the wrong person was part of it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok, that settles it.

So, if video comes out showing that the Patriots have set up human walls, you all will say it's indefensible?

Your argument fails because, according to what's known so far, Alosi demanded that players ineligible to be in that area join him in forming that wall.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Your argument fails because, according to what's known so far, Alosi demanded that players ineligible to be in that area join him in forming that wall.

Ok, at least we're clear then. It's not the human wall that's the problem. It's who is in the human wall that matters.

Sorry guys, just not seeing that as a problem.

So, if the Patriots made human walls but used the right people, we're all good with it? Just checking.

 

[DaBruinz]

I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PLAYERS AND PERSONNEL ARE NOT ALLOWED IN THE SECOND SIX FOOT ZONE.

I think you're deliberately missing my point.

I ask the question one last time and then I'm done: Show me a rule that says a human wall is not permitted (so long as the right people do it).

Put another way, if a human wall were set up exactly where the Jets did, but the personnell used were solely "coaches and situation substitution players" would it be ok? If so, this is about literally nothing to me.

Do everyone a favor and just stop posting on the subject because you clearly are ignoring the fact that Ray Anderson, an NFL league official, came out and said what the Jets did by forming the wall was illegal. You've been told that and ignored it.

Also, you should stop posting if it means nothing to you, especially since you seem to be purposely being obtuse about the situation.

 

[shmessy]

Your argument fails because, according to what's known so far, Alosi demanded that players ineligible to be in that area join him in forming that wall.

Exactly.

If Alosi ordered active Jet players to stand there (but certainly not a foot to foot wall), there would be no problem. He ordered up CANON FODDER, however. He also told them to stand foot to foot - -thus EXPECTING to affect the play.

That exposes that Alosi (and perhaps the HEAD COACH THAT WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO AND IN BACK OF THE CANON FODDER) fully expected contact and were saving the IMPORTANT CHESS PIECES while using the canon fodder.

 

[SpiderFox53]

I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PLAYERS AND PERSONNEL ARE NOT ALLOWED IN THE SECOND SIX FOOT ZONE.

I think you're deliberately missing my point.

I ask the question one last time and then I'm done: Show me a rule that says a human wall is not permitted (so long as the right people do it).

Put another way, if a human wall were set up exactly where the Jets did, but the personnell used were solely "coaches and situation substitution players" would it be ok? If so, this is about literally nothing to me.

I can't show you a rule, but I can point you to a post earlier in the thread and the article referenced in that post where one of the NFL higher ups was quoted as saying the wall was "improper".

 

[groganbootleg]

Show me a rule that says human walls aren't permitted.

Sure, right after you show us the one that says Coaches can't trip players when they are out of bounds or hit them with a bat upside the head. I doubt either exists because no one would think that a team would be creepy enough to try to hurt the other team's players in this manner.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, at least we're clear then. It's not the human wall that's the problem. It's who is in the human wall that matters.

Sorry guys, just not seeing that as a problem.

So, if the Patriots made human walls but used the right people, we're all good with it? Just checking.

Of course your not seeing the problem. That's like someone saying it's ok for a teenager to steal make-up because it's "only $5".

First off, the Pats wouldn't do it, so your hypothetical is silly. And, honestly, no, i wouldn't be ok with it.

BTW, you still ignored the fact that Anderson came out and said that a wall was not permitted..

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok, at least we're clear then. It's not the human wall that's the problem. It's who is in the human wall that matters.

Sorry guys, just not seeing that as a problem.

So, if the Patriots made human walls but used the right people, we're all good with it? Just checking.

Using your logic, the coach shouldn't have gotten in any trouble at all, because players are allowed to knock down other players, and this was just a matter of it not being the "right" person. In fact, BB and his coaching staff should start making tackles every chance they get.

You might want to re-think your position.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

BTW, you still ignored the fact that Anderson came out and said that a wall was not permitted..

Here's the only thing I've seen. Can't tell if he's saying it was improper because of the identity of the personnel or because human walls are improper. If there's something more concrete that human walls are improper, regardless of personnel, then why is anyone wasting time on the improper personnel angle? Great. What else should be said? The Jets should be hammered for unfair play.

League spokesman Greg Aiello said that "Ray Anderson and his staff are reviewing and clarifying sideline protocols with the teams at today's league meeting in Fort Worth and will follow up with a memo to the clubs this week."

When asked at the meetings if what the Jets did was improper, Anderson said: "Yes."

 

[Willie55]

BTW Mike, could the defense be lining up on the line could be because the defense is about to go on the field after a punt? Do the Pats need to put up velvet ropes to keep the defense behind until the punt return is over?

Actually if the other team is punting the defense isn't about to go on the field, they just came off. If anybody is about to come on the field it's the offense. But I can't see the defense standing on the sideline waiting for gunner. They're all sitting on the bench, out of breath. When ever you watch the game, the defensive players go right over to the bench and sit down when they come off the field.

 

[shmessy]

Westhoff opened his mouth to the media

The responsibility is now his to put up or shut up. Come forward with whatever proof he thinks he has.

 

[Ring 6]

This whole thing really stinks.

The Jets response has been to throw Alosi under the bus, have Rex deny knowledge and send Westoff to look at Patriot tapes so he can say they do it.
If you can't be honest, be good at excuses and shifting blame.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually if the other team is punting the defense isn't about to go on the field, they just came off. If anybody is about to come on the field it's the offense. But I can't see the defense standing on the sideline waiting for gunner. They're all sitting on the bench, out of breath. When ever you watch the game, the defensive players go right over to the bench and sit down when they come off the field.

I suppose it could be the defensive reserves, who are supposed to be postioned there when the D is on the field. I would imagine that a defensive reserve would stay and watch the punt before moving back to let the offensive reserves up there.

 

[patchick]

Only people who HAVE to be close to the field should be close to the field. Papering the sideline with others (non-players who, let's face it, the coach couldn't give a damn about losing in the game) is not ok - - it would ENCOURAGE throwing bodies in the way as canon fodder i.e. no repercussions for losing valuable players to injury. As long as only people who are RELEVANT to the game at hand are in that 6 foot area means that they will have a reason to get the hell out of the way when another player comes careening through.

I think this is an important point. Remember that the wall wasn't there just to discourage the Dolphins from coming close. That would be mere gamesmanship, and the use of improper staff arguably just a technicality. No, they were directed to stand their ground and let the player actually hit them.

That's pretty obvious, isn't it? Eight guys lined up in street clothes, intently watching a 200-lb man in helmet and pads barreling toward them at top speed, and not one of them moves a single step back. Heck, not one of them even flinches, or leans back a little. No, they lean toward him. The knee extension might not have been planned, but it sure looks like the collision was.

And in that light, the fact that the most expendable, lowest-paid guys on the sideline were pressed into service is very relevant indeed.

 

[Ring 6]

I think this is an important point. Remember that the wall wasn't there just to discourage the Dolphins from coming close. That would be mere gamesmanship, and the use of improper staff arguably just a technicality. No, they were directed to stand their ground and let the player actually hit them.

That's pretty obvious, isn't it? Eight guys lined up in street clothes, intently watching a 200-lb man in helmet and pads barreling toward them at top speed, and not one of them moves a single step back. Heck, not one of them even flinches, or leans back a little. No, they lean toward him. The knee extension might not have been planned, but it sure looks like the collision was.

And in that light, the fact that the most expendable, lowest-paid guys on the sideline were pressed into service is very relevant indeed.

That really is the issue. If it was done specifically with the intention to obstruct a player that was forced out of bounds, it is intentionally trying to gain an unfair advantage.

 

[Ring 6]

By the way, how does Rex Ryan get away with saying he knew nothing about it when he was standing right there, staring at the tripped player laying on the ground?

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I think this is an important point. Remember that the wall wasn't there just to discourage the Dolphins from coming close. That would be mere gamesmanship, and the use of improper staff arguably just a technicality. No, they were directed to stand their ground and let the player actually hit them.

That's pretty obvious, isn't it? Eight guys lined up in street clothes, intently watching a 200-lb man in helmet and pads barreling toward them at top speed, and not one of them moves a single step back. Heck, not one of them even flinches, or leans back a little. No, they lean toward him. The knee extension might not have been planned, but it sure looks like the collision was.

And in that light, the fact that the most expendable, lowest-paid guys on the sideline were pressed into service is very relevant indeed.

See, now these are all very good points and an excellent post. The first non-reflexive actual discussion I've read that seems like more than a gotcha.

You've convinced me it's repulsive what the Jets did. I'm not saying it's not. And, pressing the lowest-paid guys into is, for the reasons you state, equally repulsive.

But my fundamental point is that I think it's very possible we will see other videos dug up by ESPN or others in the coming weeks that show what appear to be other examples of "human walls." It will be interesting to see what the reaction is. I hope there are no patriots examples. And if there are, I hope they are not so obvious about standing in a place where a player can get hurt and holding their ground. If, however, the media or we degenerate into a silly discussion whether we can spot someone in the line of any such examples that arguably is not a "substitution" player, it seems we are missing the point.