Warren: Pats getting away from 3-4.

[coolguy]

You're taking the piss right? I've read some stupid things on this board. The bold is right up there with the best of them.

Are you implying romeo wasn't a good coordinator?

 

[ausbacker]

Are you implying romeo wasn't a good coordinator?

Not in the slightest, I'm telling you that you're misguided if you believe Patriots fans don't realize or appreciate the job Romeo Crennel did as the defensive coordinator for the Patriots.

Frankly, I have no idea how you even came to that conclusion to begin with.

 

[coolguy]

Not in the slightest, I'm telling you that you're misguided if you believe Patriots fans don't realize or appreciate the job Romeo Crennel did as the defensive coordinator for the Patriots.

Frankly, I have no idea how you even came to that conclusion to begin with.

No, i didn't mean it like that. My point was everyone keeps talking about personnel when in reality the problem may be bill hasn't had the help he once had and it's showing.

I know you guys are not giant fans who never remember what BILL did for their superbowl runs.

 

[ausbacker]

No, i didn't mean it like that. My point was everyone keeps talking about personnel when in reality the problem may be bill hasn't had the help he once had and it's showing.

I know you guys are not giant fans who never remember what BILL did for their superbowl runs.

It can be a product of either. The discount is this team has been in a complete rebuild since 2008. The age of the defense in 2010 was ridiculously young and they played accordingly.

I acknowledge good coaching has its place as does assumed improvement.

 

[VJCPatriot]

There may be something to that...

Belichick assumes there will be no OTAs; playbook will be reduced | ProFootballTalk

For those pondering what a 4-3 base would look like, the 1997 Jets defensive playbook that's in internet circulation has, in most of its formations, one outside linebacker or the other, sometimes both, up on the line, making the formations look very much like a 3-4 or classic 4-3 under (i.e. Tampa Two style). It also has Sam, Mike and Will, not LOLB and ROLB, though the line positions ARE designated left and right.

Going off that terminology, I think Mayo plays Will, Spikes plays the Mike, and either Ninkovich or Cunningham could play the Sam. The Pats are going to have to scramble for defensive ends but Wright and Moore I think could handle the job. I'd like to get one more DE rusher type. Wilfork/Haynesworth will be beasts at DT.

 

[Shockt327]

The Patriots allowed fewer points per game than the Chiefs, despite having to play more defensive snaps. They had a better YPC, and a better total rushing yards against. They allowed fewer rushing touchdowns. They allowed fewer big plays and forced the same number of fumbles. They allowed fewer points and had a lot more interceptions. They did all that in a year where the Patriots defense was weak by Patriots standards, and where that defense was without a starting CB and starting LDE for the entire 16 game season plus the playoffs.

I can't buy the 'stagnant' argument in comparison to the Chiefs, sorry.

NE was ranked in the mid 20s in points allowed for the vast majority of the season, right up till the last few weeks of the season, until they just shot up to 8th over the last 5 games. They were similarly ranked in the 30s in yards and that was mostly constant, they finished 25th. I find of it kinda sketchy when there is a glaring discrepancy between yards allowed and points. To make matters worse, I also find it sketchy when a team goes from 'bottom 10' to 'top 10' in literally 5 weeks in something as big as points allowed.

Maybe it took 2/3 rds of the year for the team to gel and I'm being too harsh. But I suspect the real reason why they rose so quickly in 'points allowed' was because in 4 of the last 5 games; the Bears and Jets just flat out didn't bother to show up (on either side of the ball), and the Bills and Dolphins had nothing to play for. That other game? It was the one where the Packers backup QB lit up our D in a rather embarrassing fashion. And a few weeks later in the playoffs? The Jets remembered to show up...and moved the ball with ease.

But I do agree that NE had a better run D than KC. Kansas City just didn't have a true NT (they'll do better with Kelly Gregg ), and they still have Glenn Dorsey on their line (who was drafted for the Tampa 2 by Herm). As a result, KC gave up some big runs.

But, taking a look at the defensive passing efficiency stats kind of fleshes out my argument for their superiority against the pass, imo, despite a hodge-podge of personnel in quite a few areas. So I'd chalk their success up to good coaching (not that we have bad coaching, mind you).

Defensive Pass Yards Per Attempt:
KC - 5th @ 6.5 ypa
NE - 21st @ 7.1 ypa

Defensive Passer Rating:
KC - 8th @ 78.1
NE - 13th @ 81.2

Allowed Pass Yards Per Game:
KC - 17th @ 220 ypg
NE - 30th @ 259 ypg

Defensive Completion Percentage:
KC - 3rd @ 54.9%
NE - 24th @ 63.5%

3rd Down Comp %:
KC - 13th @ 37.7%
NE - 32nd @ 41.7%


As an aside, though I obviously have no stats to back it up, when I watched the Chiefs I always walked away with the impression that their was far more variation in their scheme and they mixed it up quite often. By memory I can also recall them using the 3-4 to get free rushers at the QB every now and then. I distinctly recall Phillip Rivers being quite miffed at having to call a time out on the goal line because KC came out with a look he had no answer for. I'd say that's due to coaching. Maybe I'm being nostalgic, but I'd also say our D used to have that going for it when Romeo was here.

 

[Deus Irae]

But, taking a look at the defensive passing efficiency stats kind of fleshes out my argument for their superiority against the pass, imo, despite a hodge-podge of personnel in quite a few areas. So I'd chalk their success up to good coaching (not that we have bad coaching, mind you).

The Chiefs had Berry, Flowers and Carr in the defensive backfield, along with Lewis. That was a much better group than what New England was putting out there.

 

[Fencer]

I think it is. over a third of the defenses in the NFL run a 3-4 these days, but how many college programs do? How many high schools? The demand for 3-4 players has become very high, but the supply (of guys who have played in a 3-4 base extensively) is awfully low. You end up having to convert guys, and that's not a sure thing and it takes time.

The other part of that would be FA, of course.

Acquiring established FA LBs has not worked well for us in recent years. It remains to be seen whether FA scrubs like Ninko and Moore turn into the next Vrabels.

NT is a very tough 3-4 position to fill, but we seem OK there at the moment.

ILB seems fine.

So the real question is DE. Seymour was allowed to walk. T. Warren too, but he's evidently damaged goods. Everybody except Wilfork has been JAGgish in the 3-4 base.

Hmm. We'll probably know a lot more as this season unfolds ...

 

[Shockt327]

I think both teams have pretty comparable secondaries, really. Both were very young and highly, highly talented. Berry and McCourtey have potential to be two of the very best at their positions and it showed.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think both teams have pretty comparable secondaries, really. Both were very young and highly, highly talented. Berry and McCourtey have potential to be two of the very best at their positions and it showed.

Carr/Flowers was much better than McCourty/Arrington/Butler, because Carr and Flowers are both high quality CBs. Berry, even as a rookie, was a top 5 safety in the NFL. It's closer when you toss in Chung v. Lewis, but it's still a huge edge to the Chiefs.

And, when you toss in the nickel defenders, the gap gets even wider.

 

[eom]

Why not trade Warren?? What am I missing?

maybe you're missing nobody wanting to trade for him.

 

[Ring 6]

I think we'll run more of a 2-5, with two of the LB putting their hand in the dirt, like we did in the SB against the Eagles. JMHO


............Guyton Spikes Mayo

Ninkovich Wilfork Haynesworth Cunningham

We would get DESTROYED by the run, and it would all be offtackle and out. We will not play that lineup as a base.

 

[Ring 6]

Based simply on my own, uneducated football mind, I want this in a 4-3

LE: Wright
DT: Wilfork
DT: Haynesworth
RE: Cunningham
LOLB: Mayo
MLB: Spikes
ROLB: Guyton

I think this could be a way to use the team's abundant 3-4 ILB depth while covering the lack of an ideal second 3-4 OLB. Spikes at MLB behind Wilfork and Haynesworth is unfair. Mayo and Guyton play sideline to sideline. Wright is a great pocket-pusher and should help Cunningham's sack numbers.

All you are really doing here is putting the 34 personell on the field, aligning them a bit differently and calling Cunningham a DE instead of an OLB. Except you are now making Guyton an OLB.

 

[Ring 6]

There may be something to that...

Belichick assumes there will be no OTAs; playbook will be reduced | ProFootballTalk

For those pondering what a 4-3 base would look like, the 1997 Jets defensive playbook that's in internet circulation has, in most of its formations, one outside linebacker or the other, sometimes both, up on the line, making the formations look very much like a 3-4 or classic 4-3 under (i.e. Tampa Two style). It also has Sam, Mike and Will, not LOLB and ROLB, though the line positions ARE designated left and right.

So if you go off of that playbook, the lineman have to be relatively balanced left and right, but in the linebacking corps we could have a more specialized Sam and Will. So that wouldn't preclude Guyton, say, playing Will while a much bigger linebacker, like Ninkovich, fills in on the other side at Sam.

It would seem to preclude having Cunningham as weak end and Pryor or Wright on the strong side. But maybe that changes, who knows. Based on the playbook, what may happen to maintain balance is that a DT rotation of Wilfork, Haynesworth, Love and Brace takes shape with sets of heavy and light DEs based on situation, i.e. Pryor and Wright on short downs and Cunningham and Moore on long downs.

Labelling the LBs weak and strong does not mean the players on the field switch. There are weak and strong DEs, OLBs, ILBs, DT, CBs and S. Their roles differ. But BB traditionally has LEFT and RIGHT side players, that is they are strong or weak depending on formation, in the case the LOLB and ROLB are each both wil and sam on different plays.

 

[Sciz]

All you are really doing here is putting the 34 personell on the field, aligning them a bit differently and calling Cunningham a DE instead of an OLB. Except you are now making Guyton an OLB.

Yes, it's the 3-4 lined up differently, with different guys on the field, and calling guys different things. That would seem to make an entirely different defense.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

So did they run some sets in a 3-4 leo set?

 

[Joker]

Mayo is the Sam
Spikes the Mike
Cunningham the Will

Wilfork and Haynesworth the DT's

fight it out for the DE's

uh...BB WAS the D.C. of the Giants back in the late 80's ,early 90's right?

 

[cambridgepatsfan4]

Re: What scheme change?

SLB: Fletcher
MLB: Mayo
WLB: Guyton

SLB: Spikes
MLB: Mayo
WLB: Guyton

SLB: Mayo
MLB: Spikes
WLB: Guyton

It'd be one of those. Guyton is basically everything you look for in a Will.

Probably #3. Spikes cant play anything but MLB and ditto on Guyton

 

[BritPat]

I think you mean a wealth of mediocrity.

If Warren were here and we played 43, he could play either DT or DE. He played nose as a rookie. We still will be a 2gap team and he would be equally comfortable over the T or the G.

The players listed above are all good, proven players. Most of them would start on half the teams in the league.

As for Warren, the "played NT" as a rookie is far over-stating what actually happened, he started 4 games his rookie year and helped stand in for Ted sharing the role with others.

And if BB agreed with you, he'd still be here. He isn't.

 

[BritPat]

He was a competent NT with the Pats when Ted Washington was hurt.

Which is like pointing out Dan Connolly is a competent FB.