Ups and Downs for Game 3

[mgteich]

Honestly I lack the same admiration for Josh McDaniel’s as you do, I feel the offense runs best when Brady is making the calls at the line, I appreciate his desire to have a more balanced offense but putting players like Blount, Hooman, Mulligen, and worst of all Develin onto the field all at once is an absolute joke, and just like the first 2-3 game of last season we have struggled offensively as Brady and Belichick attempt to humor McDaniel’s as he attempts to implement some foolish game plans. By week 4 or 5 Brady will be sick of dealing with the nonsense and get back to doing what he wants and Belichick will support him.

I suggest, and it is my opinion, that your positions shows a profound misunderstanding with regard to how the patriots are run. There are few well-run teams where your scenario could happen. IMHO, the patriots are not one of those teams.
===============
So, Brady now calls the shots?

So, we will watch "until Week 4 or 5" and see if Josh is fired as you suggest. Make no mistake, that is what you implied in your last sentence. You suggest that Brady will refuse to follow the Game Plan of the OC and what Josh suggests on the sideline and at half time, and that Belichick will support such insubordination.

if this happens, Josh would be gone.

But, it will NOT happen.

 

[Deus Irae]

Honestly I lack the same admiration for Josh McDaniel’s as you do, I feel the offense runs best when Brady is making the calls at the line, I appreciate his desire to have a more balanced offense but putting players like Blount, Hooman, Mulligen, and worst of all Develin onto the field all at once is an absolute joke, and just like the first 2-3 game of last season we have struggled offensively as Brady and Belichick attempt to humor McDaniel’s as he attempts to implement some foolish game plans. By week 4 or 5 Brady will be sick of dealing with the nonsense and get back to doing what he wants and Belichick will support him.

Brady said he has a good relationship with McDaniels and that McDaniels has the respect of the rest of the offense as well.

“He and I are extremely comfortable with one another,” said Brady. “He’s a great coach. I love being coached by him. He comes prepared every single day. He’s always got something new to add to us. He brings a lot of energy to our offense. He’s a great coach.”

The Tom Brady Blog Tom Brady on Josh McDaniels ?I love being coached by him? | The Tom Brady Blog

 

[Brady6]

When Brady is making his calls at the line he is doing so under the guidance of the game plan that was constructed that week. McD is just as involved in those calls at the line as he is when he radios the plays in.

Not trying to be a jerk, but the bolded sentence is so far removed from reality I don't know how to even respond to it. You might want to read this thread put together by AWTE over on Patriots Planet.

Let's talk OC Bill O'Brien - Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards

I admittedly may have overstated Brady as a play caller, my point is really that McDaniel’s play calling in the early season has been less than desirable last season and now this season, I don’t know that it is Brady taking control I may have as I said tried for dramatic effect with that statement. It is likely that Belichick, McDaniel’s with some level of input from Brady review what has been working and what has not after the first quarter of the season and then make adjustments based on that review.

 

[Oswlek]

I admittedly may have overstated Brady as a play caller, my point is really that McDaniel’s play calling in the early season has been less than desirable last season and now this season, I don’t know that it is Brady taking control I may have as I said tried for dramatic effect with that statement. It is likely that Belichick, McDaniel’s with some level of input from Brady review what has been working and what has not after the first quarter of the season and then make adjustments based on that review.

Absolutely, but they do that every week no matter how good things are running.

 

[Brady6]

I suggest, and it is my opinion, that your positions shows a profound misunderstanding with regard to how the patriots are run. There are few well-run teams where your scenario could happen. IMHO, the patriots are not one of those teams.
===============
So, Brady now calls the shots?

So, we will watch "until Week 4 or 5" and see if Josh is fired as you suggest. Make no mistake, that is what you implied in your last sentence. You suggest that Brady will refuse to follow the Game Plan of the OC and what Josh suggests on the sideline and at half time, and that Belichick will support such insubordination.

if this happens, Josh would be gone.

But, it will NOT happen.

As I said in post #43 I was overstated in what exactly Brady does in terms of play calling, I do think that Brady has influence in the organization and on some levels that influence is more impactful than even Belichick in terms of Kraft having the highest level of admiration for Tom Brady as both a player and a man.

In response to my profound misunderstanding of this organization goes even if my belief or lack of lust for McDaniel’s is incorrect I think your statement here is a bit out of line, for you to conclude I have a lack of understanding for an organization based upon one statement or difference in opinion really diminishes me as a fan, a forum member and as someone who has enjoyed many discussions on with you. Just like one game shouldn’t make the player, one post should not make the forum member, if you disagree that is certainly your right and honestly I have no issue with it, I am not a McDaniel’s fan so my bias for him is likely flawed a bit. That said you don’t have to respond with your differing opinion with such a broad comment that implies everything I said is wrong, you could simply put something along the lines of Brady6 I think you understanding of the play calling and McDaniel’s role here flawed.

As far as McDaniel’s being fired, I never said, indicated, or implied that so I am not sure where you formed that belief, what I said is the play calling changes to better suit the offense after the first 3-4 games of the season.

 

[supafly]

Gholston was the 126th player taken in last year's draft, which is at the end of the fourth round.

Not even close. Your timeline for both of these players is way off.

Dashon "Gholston" as you say (it is Goldson) is currently in his SEVENTH season. While he was indeed the 126th player taken in the draft, it occurred seven years ago, not last year.

Did anyone see our second rounder from a couple of years ago, Tavon Wilson, in anything other than ST? Nope.

Tavon Wilson is actually the player who was drafted last year, in April of 2012.

It is obviously disappointing that he hasn't seen more on the field playing time as opposed to last season, but he really didn't belong out there last year either. It was due to having Patrick Chung as a starter who underachieved, no Devin McCourty at the position yet, and injury concerns which forced him into a starting role as a rookie.

Hopefully he can progress of course, but with McCourty and Gregory playing well and a 3rd round pick in Duron Harmon, he isn't likely to get many looks. I really don't care if it's Harmon or Wilson who progresses into a starter, as long as one of them ends up showing something nice and there aren't 2 wasted safety picks.

 

[supafly]

I would add Hooman to the "ups". He is a blocking TE and did well.

My, oh my--mg. Can't agree with you here.

Check out the play on the direct snap to the RB which failed to convert the 3rd down. It was run directly to Hooman's side, and he didn't even attempt to make any kind of block. There was no effort whatsoever. That is completely unacceptable, unless something comes up in film review that is different than how it appeared on the only view that I saw in real time. (Edit: another poster has pointed out that in film review I was too hard on Hooman, which is quite reasonable. Since I only saw it once in real time I will assume that they are correct, and that is wasn't a lack of effort as I insinuated).

On top of that, Hooman was far, far behind in his success regarding blocking last season--and hasn't appeared to step up to the plate much in the first 3 games this season either, at least in my opinion.

Had he not taken a 50% paycut, he'd have been gone for sure. He could be viewed as a reasonable enough JAG at 650k per year due to knowledge of the system, but I couldn't agree with you about him having good blocking in too many instances. That said, you may be a lot closer to correct than I am since Belichick apparently sees something in keeping him.

Personally, I am very disappointed with all of Hooman, Mulligan, and Sudfeld. I suppose that it's possible that the return of Gronk helps to completely mask this somehow, but I'm not sold myself.

 

[mgteich]

fair enough

BTW, if Hooman didn't take a paycut, who were the alternatives for the patriots? Was Mullign really the best option.

I too am disappointed in our tight ends, and in the Front Office is providing players at this position.

I just think that Hooman did a bit better than you suggest.

Note that I have been the one suggesting that TE is our biggest weakness, and has been for weeks.

My, oh my--mg. Can't agree with you here.

Check out the play on the direct snap to the RB which failed to convert the 3rd down. It was run directly to Hooman's side, and he didn't even attempt to make any kind of block. There was no effort whatsoever. That is completely unacceptable, unless something comes up in film review that is different than how it appeared on the only view that I saw in real time.

On top of that, Hooman was far, far behind in his success regarding blocking last season--and hasn't appeared to step up to the plate much in the first 3 games this season either, at least in my opinion.

Had he not taken a 50% paycut, he'd have been gone for sure. He could be viewed as a reasonable enough JAG at 650k per year due to knowledge of the system, but I couldn't agree with you about him having good blocking in too many instances. That said, you may be a lot closer to correct than I am since Belichick apparently sees something in keeping him.

Personally, I am very disappointed with all of Hooman, Mulligan, and Sudfeld. I suppose that it's possible that the return of Gronk helps to completely mask this somehow, but I'm not sold myself.

 

[mgteich]

You might stand by what you post or change your mind. We all have done this many times, especially after exagerating.

You suggested that Brady should ignore the Game Plan and Josh's input during the Game, and that Belichick would back him up in this insubordination. Under these circumstances, Josh would be fired. That is my understanding with regard how this team, or any NFL team operates.

Now, you choose to say that your post only suggested that the play-calling should better suit the offense. That's not what you posted. We can deal with this new position if you wish.

As far as McDaniel’s being fired, I never said, indicated, or implied that so I am not sure where you formed that belief, what I said is the play calling changes to better suit the offense after the first 3-4 games of the season.

 

[mgteich]

This discussion is NOT about understanding who calls the individual plays or Josh's role. It is about the possibility of Brady calling/running plays in diametric opposition to those called for in the Game Plan or as suggested by the OC during the game. Clearly, there are many situations when Brady calls the individual plays.

Kraft's personal admiration is not relevant to what decisions he allows Belichick to make. Yes, Kraft admires Tom. I assure you that there have been many other players that Mr. Kraft admires, including Tebow.

What do you mean when you say that Brady "has influence in the organization"? I can assure you that Brady has little influence in personnel decisions. Obviously, if he did, he wouldn't have entered the season depending on four rookies and Amendola as his receivers. Yes, Brady has a lot of influence in developing the offense and the offensive game plans, as is fitting after 14 years of running the offense. And yes, Brady is a captain and the leader of the offense.

As I said in post #43 I was overstated in what exactly Brady does in terms of play calling, I do think that Brady has influence in the organization and on some levels that influence is more impactful than even Belichick in terms of Kraft having the highest level of admiration for Tom Brady as both a player and a man.

 

[AQPE]

You guys just won't believe that NEM is back.

If Brady had executed better, the team would have won by a couple of more touchdowns. And no, I'm not questioning Brady. He did well enough, just not a good day.

Josh is handicapping the offense. ROLF (just my opinion)

Now known as "AMcOM," a typical day for Mike is spent editing his weekly newsletter "Slants, Buttonhooks, and Fades," fixing his mimeograph machine, and posting messages on "KansasJayhawkFans.com"

 

[supafly]

fair enough

BTW, if Hooman didn't take a paycut, who were the alternatives for the patriots? Was Mullign really the best option.

I too am disappointed in our tight ends, and in the Front Office is providing players at this position.

That's a difficult question to answer, but my guess is that they may not have been so quick to dump one of either Fells/Ballard, who may have been able to be kept around for the first 3-4 games until Gronk returned.

I just think that Hooman did a bit better than you suggest.

It's quite possible that I am just a bit jaded and disappointed. If that is the case my analysis may be off. I just recently saw a post a min or two ago that suggested that Hooman wasn't quite as bad as I suggested on that one specific play, which is very reasonable since he'd have likely been cut if it were simply due to lack of effort as I was insinuating to some degree.

If he's "good enough" that may be well...good enough, at least for the time being. Hopefully the return of #87 makes a big difference and we don't see as many of the flaws with the TE's.

 

[Brady6]

You might stand by what you post or change your mind. We all have done this many times, especially after exagerating.

You suggested that Brady should ignore the Game Plan and Josh's input during the Game, and that Belichick would back him up in this insubordination. Under these circumstances, Josh would be fired. That is my understanding with regard how this team, or any NFL team operates.

Now, you choose to say that your post only suggested that the play-calling should better suit the offense. That's not what you posted. We can deal with this new position if you wish.

Please highlight where I wrote that McDaniel’s would be fired by weeks 4 or 5? If you can show me that or for that matter anything indicating such a stance your post will have some validity, as of right now it’s purely nothing more than your putting words in my mouth and spewing them back in a post like I said them and you disagree with them, the only person you’re disagreeing with is yourself because you’re the only one who wrote anything about Josh McDaniel’s being fired.

What I posted was that the play calling would change, just like it did last season, and yes Brady would have some input into that, if you truly believe that the franchise quarterback with 3 SB rings has nothing to say and just drops his head and says yes sir or no sir to Josh McDaniel’s your profoundly wrong, Brady has earned the right to insert himself, and any intelligent leader which a coach in the NFL should be is seeks out criticism in order to get better. I served 10 years in the military and trust me those in command were not flawless and they certainly were not beyond asking for feedback. That belief that there is a chain of command and if you cross over it than people will be fired is irrational as it gets, that is a follower’s mentality and Brady is not a follower.

With all due respect MG you’re a much better poster than this, don’t get caught up trying to have a debate about something that never was said. If you want to talk football and have discussions about the things I wrote that is fine, but if you want to talk about what you twisted my post to say in your mind, I am not interested in that type of activity so I would ask that you move on to a someone who would be up for that.


Take a look at this video if you question that Brady will insert himself and it will not result in the coordinator being fired: Tom Brady, Bill O'Brien Getting it in... - YouTube

 

[mgteich]

I will repeat what you posted. Everyone can judge the meaning for themselves just how well your position reflects the patriots that we know so well. Your words speak for themselves.

To be clear, I will repeat my position. Tom Brady does not disregard his OC, and "do what he wants". Belichick does not accept such behavior from any player. Belichick and Brady do not act to "humor" Josh. And yes, I do believe that if Bellichick would accept such behavior from Brady, such opposition to his OC, then the OC would have to go. BTW, I am not shocked at your views. As I have alluded to in the past, there have been others on this board who have expressed similar views regarding our offensive coordinators. Curiously, this time it has been less than a month since Brady went out of his way to say how much he likes working for Josh.

As an aside, the strangest part of this discussion is that the game plan for Game 3 was radically different than the one for the first two games.

Your words:
=======================================
Honestly I lack the same admiration for Josh McDaniel’s as you do, I feel the offense runs best when Brady is making the calls at the line, I appreciate his desire to have a more balanced offense but putting players like Blount, Hooman, Mulligen, and worst of all Develin onto the field all at once is an absolute joke, and just like the first 2-3 game of last season we have struggled offensively as Brady and Belichick attempt to humor McDaniel’s as he attempts to implement some foolish game plans. By week 4 or 5 Brady will be sick of dealing with the nonsense and get back to doing what he wants and Belichick will support him.

Please highlight where I wrote that McDaniel’s would be fired by weeks 4 or 5? If you can show me that or for that matter anything indicating such a stance your post will have some validity, as of right now it’s purely nothing more than your putting words in my mouth and spewing them back in a post like I said them and you disagree with them, the only person you’re disagreeing with is yourself because you’re the only one who wrote anything about Josh McDaniel’s being fired.

What I posted was that the play calling would change, just like it did last season, and yes Brady would have some input into that, if you truly believe that the franchise quarterback with 3 SB rings has nothing to say and just drops his head and says yes sir or no sir to Josh McDaniel’s your profoundly wrong, Brady has earned the right to insert himself, and any intelligent leader which a coach in the NFL should be is seeks out criticism in order to get better. I served 10 years in the military and trust me those in command were not flawless and they certainly were not beyond asking for feedback. That belief that there is a chain of command and if you cross over it than people will be fired is irrational as it gets, that is a follower’s mentality and Brady is not a follower.

With all due respect MG you’re a much better poster than this, don’t get caught up trying to have a debate about something that never was said. If you want to talk football and have discussions about the things I wrote that is fine, but if you want to talk about what you twisted my post to say in your mind, I am not interested in that type of activity so I would ask that you move on to a someone who would be up for that.


Take a look at this video if you question that Brady will insert himself and it will not result in the coordinator being fired: Tom Brady, Bill O'Brien Getting it in... - YouTube

 

[Oswlek]

That's a difficult question to answer, but my guess is that they may not have been so quick to dump one of either Fells/Ballard, who may have been able to be kept around for the first 3-4 games until Gronk returned.

I heard from someone with a source that Fells was let go due to personal reasons. No idea what those reasons are, but his release made more sense in light of that.

 

[supafly]

I heard from someone with a source that Fells was let go due to personal reasons. No idea what those reasons are, but his release made more sense in light of that.

Hmmm, interesting, Os. Thanks for passing that on.

That makes more sense since he was reinserted in the preseason game #4 after missing the previous game and 7-10 days of practices due to a concussion. I suppose that I assumed that it was either monetary, or that there were some concerns about the concussion (or both).

 

[Fencer]

New England Patriots: Picked-up pieces from 2nd-half review - ESPN Boston

Reiss also thinks Wilfork played well. Perhaps I was overreacting to a couple of plays early.

 

[mgteich]

This is interesting. I had thought the issue was his concussion.

I heard from someone with a source that Fells was let go due to personal reasons. No idea what those reasons are, but his release made more sense in light of that.

 

[Brady6]

This discussion is NOT about understanding who calls the individual plays or Josh's role. It is about the possibility of Brady calling/running plays in diametric opposition to those called for in the Game Plan or as suggested by the OC during the game. Clearly, there are many situations when Brady calls the individual plays.

Kraft's personal admiration is not relevant to what decisions he allows Belichick to make. Yes, Kraft admires Tom. I assure you that there have been many other players that Mr. Kraft admires, including Tebow.

What do you mean when you say that Brady "has influence in the organization"? I can assure you that Brady has little influence in personnel decisions. Obviously, if he did, he wouldn't have entered the season depending on four rookies and Amendola as his receivers. Yes, Brady has a lot of influence in developing the offense and the offensive game plans, as is fitting after 14 years of running the offense. And yes, Brady is a captain and the leader of the offense.

You don’t think Tom Brady has influence in the Patriots organization? I disagree, I would say outside of Belichick and even that is close Tom Brady has more clout with the Kraft’s than anyone.

As far as personnel decisions I am sure that the decision was made to either rebuild the receiving core now with Brady at age 36 or wait 2-3 more years when Welker and Lloyd were retired and do it with a 38-39 year old Tom Brady, logic says it makes sense to do it now and allow the later years to be easier.

In addition to that Brady much like Belichick and the rest of us likely assumed he’d be entering week 1 with:

X WR – Aaron Dobson a 6’3 210 Lbs. receiver who runs a 4.40 40 yard dash.
Z WR – Danny Amendola a younger more athletic slot receiver than Wes Welker.
Y TE – Rob Gronkowski the best tight end in the world.
Flex TE – Aaron Hernandez a top 5 tight end in the NFL capable of playing inside and outside.

On the bench

WR – Donald Jones a 25 year old solid NFL receiver capable of playing all 3 receiver positions.
WR – Josh Boyce a rookie with 4.30 speed and game-breaker potential.
WR – Julian Edelman a solid receiver capable of making plays in space playing out of the slot.
TE – Jake Ballard an up and coming tight end before his injury in the SB.

Add that to the stable of running backs that include Ridley, Vereen, Blount and Bolden and I don’t think anyone including Brady was overwhelmingly concerned with the personnel at the start of OTA’s in May.

Brady is the face of this franchise, your mentality is here is simplified beyond the reality of how modern day sports are run. The thought that he is just another player or slightly more than just another player is obscene and that’s putting it lightly, he is as influential to this franchise as anyone who has ever walked through the doors of Gillette stadium.

 

[Deus Irae]

You don’t think Tom Brady has influence in the Patriots organization? I disagree, I would say outside of Belichick and even that is close Tom Brady has more clout with the Kraft’s than anyone...

"Yeah, I don't know where those, some of those reports come from," Brady said. "Obviously I have relationships with every guy that I've ever played with, certainly guys at the receiver position are some of my best friends and people that I spent the most time and I'm the closest with. But I don't make any personnel decisions, I don't -- I can't talk to coach Belichick about bringing players back. I've never been able to control personnel decisions, so that's -- I'm a player like everybody else.

"We have a scouting department and people that make those decisions and I'm one of the last people that are ever asked or told about what we're doing with players," he continued. "I kind of just mind my own business and try to play quarterback as best I can."

Tom Brady denies NFL Network report on WRs - ESPN Boston

If Tom Brady had real pull with the Patriots organization, and used it, Wes Welker would still be a member of the team.