Upgrading the Defense

[Ring 6]

Richard Marshall, former Fresno State cornerback (Pat Hill former coach), is available in the unrestricted free agent market. Richard Marshall played both cornerback and free safety for the Arizona Cardinals this year.

I heard that Hill is now an asst coach in the NFL (OL in Atl?) and was surprised he wasnt brought in by BB

 

[Boomer B]

I would like us to draft a rush OLB, but Bill never does. He will probably go with Anderson and Carter again.

We need lots of help in the secondary. If McCourty stays as the FS, then I think we add a vet CB in free agency and draft a CB in the 1st 2 rounds.

I think there is a good chance we draft a DE with one of our top picks also.

The big thing for me is that we need to attack more on D. The bend but don't break was probably the best we could do with the talent we had, but in the end the D broke the final drives in the last 2 playoff games. We need more talent, but we also need to be more aggressive. Rarely do we get 3 and outs that set up our O with great field position. That needs to change.

 

[Ring 6]

Mangini already stated that Pats are a 34 defense and that's their identity. You put too much pressure on your inexperienced secondary by trying to switch back and forth. He thinks BB/Pats revert to 34 next year.

G'bye Anderson and Carter, we hardly knew ye.

FWIW

I don't think we can expect to count on Carter. At his age after that injury its a longshot he can be effective next year, if ever.
I hope we keep Anderson. He shouldn't be out there in the base, but he can play 400-500 snaps as a sub package DE and really help us.
That is close to a full time role.

 

[ATippett56]

I heard that Hill is now an asst coach in the NFL (OL in Atl?) and was surprised he wasnt brought in by BB

Pat Hill is the current offensive line coach for the Atlanta Falcons.

Pat Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, BB does have Dante Scar.

 

[mgteich]

SAFETY
I have no problem with Ihedigbo as the #4 safety, who is also a solid special teamer. I agree that he is not a starter. I suspect that Belichick is willing to give Barrett another chance to develop.
bottom line: we need a starter at safety.

CORNER
Sure, we all would like to add a top shut down corner. So would everyone else. Personally, I am fine with McCourty, Arrington, Moore, Dowling and Molden.
If we have no significant additions, McCourty is our starting free safety.

SUMMARY
We will add 2-5 players in the secondary. The open question is what we can get. A first round corner seems to be the best value. A starting safety may be harder to find this year. So, I see us drafting in the 1st and 3rd/4th plus our usual 2-5 free agents.

BOTTOM LINE
The question marks are Dowling and what quality we will be able to acquire. In 2011, Arrington and Moore were the keys to "success". FOUR top acquisitions is fine. What we really need is four top acquisitions that help us in 2012. This year we got production from Carter, Anderson, Moore, Ellis and Warren. Next year, we need to do at least as well.

SECONDARY

What we have:

Chung. I am impressed with his development. I think he is ready to move into probowl caliber in 2012.

McCourty. I know he has gotten bruatlized on this board, but during the week off before the SB I rewatched most of the season, and he was a guy I focussed on. I think McCourty is a victim of only being remembered for a few plays that stand out. The real difference between McCourty in 10 and 11 was a handful of plays all with same technique, The deep ball where he trails the reciever. In 2010, he played possum looking like he was a step behind and recovering to make the pick. He had something like 6 Ints on that route, and was rarely beaten. This year he WAS that step behind and was beaten 6-8 times. Now 6 deep completions vs 6 Ints makes a huge difference, but McCourtys play, outside of those plays all on the same route and technique was remarkably similar to 2010.
If he cannpt overcome that he will be picked on and torched, but I find it hard to believe a player of his caliber cannot correct a 2nd year error in an area he actiually excelled as a rookie. I am fine with him at LCB for 2012.
Dowling certainly has the skills to be a good starting cb, but losing a year worries me more than his Glass I nickname. There is a lot of reason to be hopeful he can start at RCB next year and play well, but we can't rely on it.
Arrington. All of our pass D struggles the last 2 years have helped hide the fact that Arrignton is simply overmatched out there. He is smart and gets plays that he is schemed into, but he is not nearly physical enough and is below average in coverage skills. His role as the 4th/5th corner who plays all special teams is where he really belongs. Not a terrible liability as a nickel if necessary.
Moore. Maybe he can develop, maybe not. Cant count on it.
We need to sign a quality free agent corner. Not a guy who can start if he has to, but a guy who would start on any team. A decent #1 to good #2 corner. I am Ok here if we break the mold of 'complete corner' and get more of a cover guy with non-cover weaknesses.
Add a jag FA and a later pick to compete with Dowling and Arrington for 3/4/5 spots.

Ihedigbo must go. At best he can be the 4th safety who plays s/ts.
Barrett should come to camp trying to earn a job, and he should have a lot of competition. Brown is a ster only.
We need to get a new starter, either in FA or early in the draft.
Coverage skills chould be the top priority. A safety who is almost a corner over a safety that is a small LB.
Add jag depth to compete

So, I would like to see:
34 DE
34 OLB
CB
S

All major moves, starting players. Expensive FAs or 1st or 2nd round picks.
The quality of who we end up with in those 4 spots (and of course how depth evolves) can make the defense go anywhere from continuing to play well enough mostly and be mismatched on game winning drives or a defense that can dominate and bring back a Lombardi to Foxboro.

I wouldn't care if we bring back Welker and add nothing else but jags on offense if we get this focus on finalizing the job of rebuilding the defense.

We have to have pass rushers that help the dbs, dbs that extend the time the rushers have, and enough quality of both that we can blitz LBs on 3rd down and not fear we won't get there and can't cover long enough even if we could.

 

[Ring 6]

I would like us to draft a rush OLB, but Bill never does. He will probably go with Anderson and Carter again.

We need lots of help in the secondary. If McCourty stays as the FS, then I think we add a vet CB in free agency and draft a CB in the 1st 2 rounds.

I think there is a good chance we draft a DE with one of our top picks also.

The big thing for me is that we need to attack more on D. The bend but don't break was probably the best we could do with the talent we had, but in the end the D broke the final drives in the last 2 playoff games. We need more talent, but we also need to be more aggressive. Rarely do we get 3 and outs that set up our O with great field position. That needs to change.

It depends what you mean by attack.
Our base defense will always be a conservative 2gap 'read and react' style. That is BB.
But where we used to be much more aggressive was in passing situations. 3rd downs, 2 minute drills.
Its one thing to say we should do that, and another thing entirely that it is smart given the personell.
When your pass rush isn't real good being aggressive makes it harder not easier on your DBs. When your DBs don't cover well, it makes it harder on your pass rushers.
In reality an intelligent decision about being aggressive isn't about "aggressive is better" or 'bend dont break doesnt work" because neither are really true, it is about what your talent is and which works better with it.
Being aggreessive just because you want to when you talent doesn't fit gives you the 2011 Jets against any offense that was good.

 

[ausbacker]

The Manningham catch was nothing like the Tyree "play"..the safety was a step too slow on that play and it became a fantastic game changing catch...that is where BB wanted that pass going, not to the other two Giant WR's...hope the experience is well learned by Chung going forward

Sometimes you have to tip your hat to the other side. Manning made a perfect throw on his 3rd? read and Manningham made a clutch catch along the sidelines. Put succinctly, that's good football.

 

[reflexblue]

The defense has been overhauled completed over the last few years except for Wilfork.
Some of the rebuilding has worked, some has not.
With one of the greatest defensive minds in NFL history in charge, we have what I would describe as a defense that plays well at times, is opportunistic, but struggles straight up to outplay offenses.
This is accentuated in situations like a 2 minute drill, where the offense isn't strategizing, isnt worried about balance, and has 4 downs to throw the ball and get 10 yards, over and over. Of course the way the NFL has evolved almost any defense has a hard time in that situation, but it is the one area where our team stands out as very weak.
So changes must be made. This is my opinion of what we have, what role they would be accpetable in (realizing we cant have an allpro at every position and taking into effect our system) and by default what I think BB should focus the entire offseason on. (If the D is 'fixed' the O will be good enough with minor moves to have us right back in the SB)

DLINE
Wilfork should be a NT in the 34. That is the best use of him and frankly he should be out on 3rd and long so he is strong for the 50 plays he is in for.

Deaderick. We can win with him as a 34 DE, but it would continue to be a spot that we want to upgrade.

Love. He should not be more than a backup. I was far from impressed with his play this year.

Brace. I was really high on Brace last year. He looked real good as a LDE stuffing the run and showing a good bull riush when he was out there but he kept losing playing time, and this year he barely saw the field. Something is missing, because he certainly has the talent to be a good LDE in the 34, but he hasn't come close to showing it. Is it health, conditioning, attitude? I don't know but at this point he should be coming to camp needing to prove he deserves to make the team, but if he does he could be a big surprise. As of now, not to be relied upon.

Pryor/Wright. Can't stay healthy, can't be relied upon.

Warren is a jag who could have a chance to come back and sit on the end of the bench. Ellis appears cooked.

Assuming we play a 34, we desperately need a DE, could really stand to upgrade Deaderick, but also need depth.
This is a round 1 priority or top FA area IMO.

Sub Package.
Anderson is a great option as a sub package rusher, who should never be on the field to do anything else. Carter is better but seemingly wouldn't be happy in that role, and I can't see banking the success of the pass rush on him being fully recovered from his injury at his age. Can't afford to not move on.
Aside from those 2, and a decent job from Ninkovich as a backup nickel DE, we were horrible on sub package DL.
We need a nickel DE across from Anderson but that comes from the OLB spot.
We need a whole new group of inside rushers in the sub package.

The DL needs a lot of work.

I don't think the defense has been overhauled at all. Just because you can throw out names of newer players doesn't mean they're really any good. Ive been saying for years that the front seven (especially D-line and OLB) have been neglected. You can have the "greatest defensive minds" in the world but that can't make up for lack of talent. Plenty have 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks have been used on DB's with not much to show for it. And i'm sure BB will pick another DB this year using a high pick, its become an annual event.

 

[Ring 6]

SAFETY
I have no problem with Ihedigbo as the #4 safety, who is also a solid special teamer. I agree that he is not a starter. I suspect that Belichick is willing to give Barrett another chance to develop.
bottom line: we need a starter at safety.

CORNER
Sure, we all would like to add a top shut down corner. So would everyone else. Personally, I am fine with McCourty, Arrington, Moore, Dowling and Molden.
If we have no significant additions, McCourty is our starting free safety.

McCourty only played safety in nickel/dime this year.

I dont know how you can be OK with our corners. (Although I am OK with McCourty) We have been weak against the pass the last 2 years. At what point do you say a mediocre at best guy like Arrington just isnt good enough, or we need to set the bar higher than saying we are OK with the UDFA who was unemplyed week 13?
The bar needs to be raised.
You seem to want to keep the status quo. I think the status quo needs to be blown up, at least selectively.

SUMMARY
We will add 2-5 players in the secondary. The open question is what we can get. A first round corner seems to be the best value. A starting safety may be harder to find this year. So, I see us drafting in the 1st and 3rd/4th plus our usual 2-5 free agents.

BOTTOM LINE
The question marks are Dowling and what quality we will be able to acquire. In 2011, Arrington and Moore were the keys to "success". FOUR top acquisitions is fine. What we really need is four top acquisitions that help us in 2012. This year we got production from Carter, Anderson, Moore, Ellis and Warren. Next year, we need to do at least as well.

I hope we aren't satisfied with doing 'at least as well' with the defense.
There is a core, and an opportunity to add 4 key pieces, plius some minor ones to it and elevate it to a strength rather than a unit that is good enough as long as we have a great offense.

 

[Joker]

BTW, where did you get your #s? I was under the impression we played more than 50% nickel/dime.
Are you saying 52% 4 man line including nickel/dime or 52% 43.
Can you link the numbers?

I got it from Reiss, I think??? Twitter??? earlier today....I know they opened up in a 4/3 and got their asses handed to them by Denver in the 3rd quarter, after which they tweaked the D and played 3/4 the rest of THAT game...I don't think there was a distinction between the nickel/dime 4 man front as opposed to just total snaps taken in the 4/3...

 

[mgteich]

I don't see why you conclude that Ihedigbo "must go" simply because he isn't good enough to be a starter. We need backups who can play special teams. Ihedigbo seems to fit the bill as a backup safety. I agree that we need a starter.

I do think that a starting safety will not be easy to find. Of course, Belichick's answer is that he believes that Barrett can be that starter. That's fine as long as there is a Plan B and Plan C, which we lacked in 2011 at safety. If Dowling comes back healthy and strong, either McCourty or Dowling could be our starting free safety.

SECONDARY

Ihedigbo must go. At best he can be the 4th safety who plays s/ts.

Barrett should come to camp trying to earn a job, and he should have a lot of competition.

Brown is a ster only.

We need to get a new starter, either in FA or early in the draft..

 

[Ring 6]

I don't think the defense has been overhauled at all. Just because you can throw out names of newer players doesn't mean they're really any good. Ive been saying for years that the front seven (especially D-line and OLB) have been neglected. You can have the "greatest defensive minds" in the world but that can't make up for lack of talent. Plenty have 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks have been used on DB's with not much to show for it.

Isn't Wilfork the only player on defense that was here for SB 42 and SB 46?
How is that not totally overhauling the defense?

My point is that there are pieces that worked and pieces that didn't.
There are 4 vital spots to address:
DE
OLB
CB
S

It is possible that CB was already solved with Dowling. It is possible that OLB was already solved with Cunnigham if both can be 100% healthy. But I want to treat both spots as if those guys can't be counted on. If they reach their potential there will be room for them anyway.
I want us to address these 4 spots, and if we do it well, I think we have an outstanding defense. We don't need 4 all pros, just guys with talent who can fill those roles the way we need them.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't see why you conclude that Ihedigbo "must go" simply because he isn't good enough to be a starter.

I mean as a regular part of the defense. I don't care if he stays as the 4th safety to play s/ts becuase maybe the experience could help, but I'd just as soon have a younger guy.

We need backups who can play special teams. Ihedigbo seems to fit the bill as a backup safety. I agree that we need a starter.

When your backup is a guy you are afraid to start, what do you have?

I do think that a starting safety will not be easy to find. Of course, Belichick's answer is that he believes that Barrett can be that starter. That's fine as long as there is a Plan B and Plan C, which we lacked in 2011 at safety. If Dowling comes back healthy and strong, either McCourty or Dowling could be our starting free safety.

I think Dowling and McCourty are going to be our starting corners actually. Even if we bring in a corner, we need 3.
I'd rather get a safety than convert a corner. There is no reason we can't get an effective S in FA or early in the draft.

 

[Ring 6]

I got it from Reiss, I think??? Twitter??? earlier today....I know they opened up in a 4/3 and got their asses handed to them by Denver in the 3rd quarter, after which they tweaked the D and played 3/4 the rest of THAT game...I don't think there was a distinction between the nickel/dime 4 man front as opposed to just total snaps taken in the 4/3...

If I had to guess, I'd put it like this:

Nickel dime 60%
43 25%
34 15%

But its not really that big a deal, we play the same 6 guys in the same techniue with a different alignment along with either a 43 DE or 34 OLB.
But BB has said he used the 43 this year because it was easier to install with the short offseason, and the prevalance of nickle.
I think he will always gravitate to the 34 because it has a tactical advantage, especially in a 2 gap scheme.,

 

[mgteich]

Keep repeating this. Maybe it will happen. It didn't last year. Belkichick was certainly unhappy with our safeties and yet we played some pretty weak players at safety, including several street free agents.

. There is no reason we can't get an effective S in FA or early in the draft.

 

[Ring 6]

Keep repeating this. Maybe it will happen. It didn't last year. Belkichick was certainly unhappy with our safeties and yet we played some pretty weak players at safety, including several street free agents.

OK, lets give up and stick with Sergio Brown because the fact that BB went into the draft and FA with Meriwhether, Chung and Sanders and was comfortable with that so he didn't sign or draft any safeties and then Meriwhether played himself off the team in preseason and Sanders showed up injured and out of shape certainly proves it would be impossible to acquire a safety this year.:bricks:

 

[patsfan13]

Maybe BB will continue to develop the hybrid D discussed in this article, where 2 gap and 1 gap are utilized on the same play:

Bill Belichick, Vince Wilfork, and the New England Patriots defense - Grantland


BTW using Love in the middle allowed BB to move Vince around to attack the weakness of the other O.

 

[patsfan-1982]

The Pats use a 4-man line on 3rd down anyway. There's no need for 3rd down 3-4 OLBs.[/QUOTE]

yes but that would take Carter off the field who started every game befor he got injuried he's to small to play DE in a 3-4 and is not good as a stand up OLB if teams go no huddle rob ninkovich will be the only pass rusher on the field playing next to what ever JAG the pats put out there at the other OLB

 

[patriot.de]

I think nick gentry out of alabama could be a nice addition in the offseason as an inside rusher. bama plays a base 34 and he comes on the field on 3rd and long when they swith to 4-3. in the bcs bowl he looks like a beast no one could stop. i think he will ge undrafted, so there is no risc of spending a draft pick.

 

[DarrylS]

Do not think a draft pick will solve our malaise at DB or Safety, need someone who is not only good, but displays leadership qualities. Some of our coverage issues had to do with confusion in the D backfield. Someone with an attitude would also be helpful.

Rodney reincarnate where are you???