Tom Curran: Sources made 'clear to me' decision to move on from Belichick made after Germany game

[venecol]

How can you watch football since the 60s and not realize players get old, they get worse as they do, and they leave?

ALL the players I listed except Thuney were OUT of the NFL by the next couple of years.

It was clear in 2019 that the Patriots were trending down. & they couldn't sign anyone new in 2020 because they elected to take the dead cap hits on all the old grizzled vets who were leaving.

The only two players that you listed that Bill should've kept were Thuney and Gilly, the only two All Pros of the list. Instead, he let them walk for nothing. Bill is a terrible GM and his decisions drove the team into the proverbial ditch. I hope Curran is correct and Bill is 86'ed outta here.

 

[Wozzy]

Before Brady, nothing. Once Brady arrived it gave the locker room what it was lacking: leadership and a winning culture. They'll probably make the playoffs this season w/ Mayfield and $79.4M in dead money. A lot of those guys are SB champions because Brady taught them how to be winners. Bill lost that in his locker room once Brady left, and was never able to put it back together.

That 2019 Tampa team?

Here’s an interesting stat I heard on the Ringer podcast that starts with a question:

There's been 10 teams since 2015 that averaged over 2 turnovers offensively per game, how many of them have been 500 or better?

Zero was the answer. The average number of wins of all these teams was four.

The 2015 Bucs had the most turnovers of all ten teams (41) and they had the best record at 7-9 of all ten teams.

Jameis Winston's 30 Interceptions in 2019 is tied for 6th worst in NFL history.

His 12 fumbles were tied for 5th worst in the NFL that season. That team was dead last in total turnovers in 2019, the majority of which was caused by the one guy most responsible for protecting the ball... the QB.

Jameis Winston also led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2019, he threw a third most (33) TD's. So saying Tom Brady brought some magical elements beyond mainly protecting the ball is ridiculous fan gushing.

This isn't Rudy or a Disney movie, these are full grown adults playing a sport they played their whole life. Ball security and yes, bringing in other players who wanted to play with him was his biggest contribution.

Beyond QB and LT the Bucs were the absolute best team he could have gone to.… something I said when Tom was still a free agent and why the Bucs became my preseason favorite to win the Super Bowl once he joined them and my labeling them a “superteam.”

There were a dozen QB’s in the league at the time who could have won a ring with that team, it wasn’t QB magic… it was a magic team.

If he had gone to the Raiders instead he would have fallen flat on his face, nobody could win with a league worst defense. Tommy was always the smartest guy in the room, he chose wisely.

 

[Wozzy]

The only two players that you listed that Bill should've kept were Thuney and Gilly, the only two All Pros of the list. Instead, he let them walk for nothing. Bill is a terrible GM and his decisions drove the team into the proverbial ditch. I hope Curran is correct and Bill is 86'ed outta here.

Thuney got 80 Million, if BB paid a guard that money you guys would be having a conniption fit. He drafted a guard late in the first round after trading back and you guys lost your minds.

Gilmore was coming off a torn quad, had one of the biggest cap hits in the NFL and was in a contract year.

They didn’t “walk for nothing,” there were clear reasons to let both go.

 

[venecol]

You mentioned multiple rookies and guys that came to Tampa to play with Brady and a chance for a ring. The rest of those guys won 7 games the year before. I know when Bill wins 7 games without Brady it's a triumphant feat but 7 wins isn't a good season.

Remember when Bill won 7 games in 2020 and people here thought he should be Coach of the Year. This forum is so full of delusional homers it's amusing to a certain extent.

 

[venecol]

 

[venecol]

Yes but I don't think that is all because of winning. That's my only point.


Look at the top 7 in 2023 valuation. 4 of which haven't won a SB since Kraft bought the team. Seems more about the size of the market than actually winning.

• Dallas Cowboys - $9.2 billion
• Los Angeles Rams - $6.94 billion
• New England Patriots - $6.7 billion
• San Francisco 49ers - $6.15 billion
• New York Jets - $6.11 billion
• Washington Commanders - $6.05 billion
• Chicago Bears - $6 billion

But if you look at that list, all of those teams are in cities with large media markets, except for the Patriots. So, one could conclude, the winning had a major effect in their valuation.

 

[venecol]

Those who want Bill gone, please give a name of a coach you will like that is available. Lets hear it.

Ben Johnson, Detroit Lions​

Brian Johnson, Philadelphia Eagles​

Eric Bieniemy, Washington Commanders​

Frank Smith, Miami Dolphins​

Wes Phillips, Minnesota Vikings​

Shane Waldron, Seattle Seahawks​

Dave Canales, Tampa Bay Buccaneers​

Todd Monken, Baltimore Ravens​

Bobby Slowik, Houston Texans​

 

[venecol]

Am I wrong to think that TB SB win in TB, combined with the decline of the Patriots, has led to to more anger at Bill. Compared to the reaction if Brady stayed until retirement?

Kraft is probably thinking he is in a no win situation. If he lets Bill leave, he will be known as the owner who did not have the GOAT HC & QB retire on his watch. Letting Brady walk may make Kraft want to keep Bill even more.

If Bill stays, he knows a large portion of the fan base will be irate. That they no longer trust the direction of the organization. And that the 6x SB HC will go from a hero to a villain. Possibly, although highly doubtful, season ticket numbers will be affected. Could be Kraft's mindset.

Yes, now STFU.

 

[goheels22002]

Even the habitual losing teams in the NFL have seen their valuations increase by 15X since 1994.

No question winning helped but it wasn't the only reason the NEP went from 172m to 7b

The valuation of an NFL franchise is solely based on how smart, informed and witty their fanbase is on its primary internet forum. It's our world, ladies and gentlemen. They're just living in it.

 

[PP2]

The defense was designed to play Belichick style. They are not thumpers. They take up space and squeeze you. They want as many safeties as they can safely put on the field without getting run over. They want to bait you into throwing into coverage. Bend but don't break. Whoever the new DC is will need to either run a similar D or they have to reconstruct the team all over again.

I believe the only reason the Krafts want to fire Belichick is that they don't get along with him, they have a cold relationship, and they look at him as an employee with too big an ego, instead of looking at him as a talent. The 3-10 season has given them the perfect out to fire him. But this is all about relationships, not judgment about what is best for the football team.

As Bill Parcells says, you are what your record says you are.

In this regard, BB has failed. He's been given 3 post-Brady years, and has not been successful.

And yes, if there is a new coach, new DC, the whole team will have to be reconstructed.

But that's the thing: part of the appeal of hiring/attracting a big name coach and/or QB, is the potential to really build from the ground up with a lot of money to spend plus a few high picks, and that's what the Krafts have now. There's no better chance than to move on after this season is done.

 

[1960Pats]

Ok I might've been quick on the gun to ChungFu but when deflategate happened this was a VERY common sentiment. Everyone was mad, SO mad, grr! You know what, I'm so mad, I'm going to STOP WATCHING THE NFL! But I'll wait until the GOAT QB and GOAT HC retire first, so it's convenient to me!

I don't know what people are waiting for if they hate the game today. The way it looks to me is it's a cop out for "I don't wanna watch a ****ty Patriots team" disguised as loyalty to BB and Brady

You don't think the quality of play is down? I do.

 

[RIpats88]

The only two players that you listed that Bill should've kept were Thuney and Gilly, the only two All Pros of the list. Instead, he let them walk for nothing. Bill is a terrible GM and his decisions drove the team into the proverbial ditch. I hope Curran is correct and Bill is 86'ed outta here.

I'm tired of this narrative too that 2019/2020 were unavoidable. Yes the players were getting old and their talent was degrading.

But Bill either did nothing to draft their replacements or whiffed on the picks when he did. Gronk retired and Bill never drafted a TE to replace him. We took a WR high to replace his production and it ended up being harry...

Brady left with our backup plan being cam Newton. James white retired and there's no 3rd down back. His decisions since 2019 have been downright bad. I almost wonder if he's just been coasting. Figured he'd build a team that goes .500 get Shula's record and retire.

Also there's 2 sides to the ball. I get he's a defensive minded coach. But basically ignoring the offense in the draft and believing you can win by filling it with average players is why we have one of the least talented offenses out there. But now we may even need to draft a safety since Bill is letting Duggar get to free agency

Before I get attacked. No one is saying Juju, parker or Bourne are not NFL receivers. It's just that your ceiling having them as your top options is pretty low.

Imagine having lafell/Chris hogan as your top guys....without Gronkowski/edelman

 

[1960Pats]

The NFL only tallies total points. They don't separate defense from team.

That was a question I had while reading this thread. I remember back in 85 when the Pats were the first team to get to the SB after winning 3 road games. During that playoff run the Pats kicking team scored a couple of TDs and I was wondering how those TDs would be credited.

As @IcyPatriot pointed out on the last page, even TOP could be factored in when discussing the defense. The offense has been putting the defense back on the field at an alarming rate and I'm surprised at how good they've been under those circumstances.

All three phases of the game can contribute to scoring on both sides of the ball.

 

[1960Pats]

Agreed. The guys that hate on Bill have always hated on him. Who knows why. The Pats are not that bad, they need a QB. The question is how to get back to a SB? A new high draft pick QB is a great start.

I do not think BB is doing the drafting anymore. Kraft said they restructured the scouting which is code for BB does not make all of the drafting decisions anymore.

The discussion point is why wait so long when Mac is a bust? Did BB miss that Mac was a bust and was pigheaded about playing Mac? Or was Kraft telling BB to play Mac? If BB erred and played Mac then he should go. If Kraft was telling BB to play Mac then BB will be back. It is no more complicated than that.

If Zappe wins 3 out of the last 4 BB is definitely back. If Zappe wins 2 out of 4, I still think BB returns.

Anyone that thinks Curran or Breer has "sources" fails to learn from history.

I don't hate the guy and, true or not, this discussion has been going on here long before Curran added his $.02. Bill was part of the greatest run in NYFL history but the team has been heading steadily into the cellar for 4 years now. And if Zappe did win 3 of 4 I'll be as happy as a pig in slop while the Tankheads will be looking for a bridge to jump off, but it would still leave the team at 6-11 and on the same downward spiral.

And the idea that the Pats are only a QB away is way off target. Check the player rankings that are out there somewhere and you'll probably be surprised at just how poor the player rankings are. The Pats have holes everywhere and the only person responsible is Bill. That isn't hate, that's fact.

 

[1960Pats]

I know people are saying that, but Curran's been right about a fair amount, and the people who absolutely killed Breer here on the JJSS story found out there was more truth to that than we expected. I know many might not think it, but Curran's also wise enough not to throw out something that significant without something to back it up.

He's one of the guys I enjoy. I also like PTI even though it's on that station I don't like.

 

[upstater1]

As Bill Parcells says, you are what your record says you are.

In this regard, BB has failed. He's been given 3 post-Brady years, and has not been successful.

And yes, if there is a new coach, new DC, the whole team will have to be reconstructed.

But that's the thing: part of the appeal of hiring/attracting a big name coach and/or QB, is the potential to really build from the ground up with a lot of money to spend plus a few high picks, and that's what the Krafts have now. There's no better chance than to move on after this season is done.

There are teams that go 25 years in the wilderness with this kind of thinking. Tearing things down in the middle of a process.

 

[*ChungFu*]

Deleted

 

[RIpats88]

There are teams that go 25 years in the wilderness with this kind of thinking. Tearing things down in the middle of a process.

What process? We aren't building towards anything.

If anything just been going downhill each year and the talent getting worse.

Bill has had 4 years, let's say 3 since Brady left and reset in 2020. And it's only been downhill each year. Take the QB play out of it and what young budding talent do you see this roster filled with waiting to break out?

 

[upstater1]

I'm tired of this narrative too that 2019/2020 were unavoidable. Yes the players were getting old and their talent was degrading.

But Bill either did nothing to draft their replacements or whiffed on the picks when he did. Gronk retired and Bill never drafted a TE to replace him. We took a WR high to replace his production and it ended up being harry...

Brady left with our backup plan being cam Newton. James white retired and there's no 3rd down back. His decisions since 2019 have been downright bad. I almost wonder if he's just been coasting. Figured he'd build a team that goes .500 get Shula's record and retire.

Also there's 2 sides to the ball. I get he's a defensive minded coach. But basically ignoring the offense in the draft and believing you can win by filling it with average players is why we have one of the least talented offenses out there. But now we may even need to draft a safety since Bill is letting Duggar get to free agency

Before I get attacked. No one is saying Juju, parker or Bourne are not NFL receivers. It's just that your ceiling having them as your top options is pretty low.

Imagine having lafell/Chris hogan as your top guys....without Gronkowski/edelman

How do you explain what has happened with the LA Rams?

They won the Super Bowl 2 years ago and have been bad for 2 seasons.

The Patriots loaded a lot of contracts and took dead cap hits in 2020. Thats the reality no matter how anyone tries to deny it

 

[upstater1]

What process? We aren't building towards anything.

If anything just been going downhill each year and the talent getting worse.

We're adding new talent and seeing young players get better.

Barmore, Keion White, Gonzalez, Jennings, Peppers, Dugger, etc. This defense is 10x better than the one that got blown out by the Bills back when they went 10-7. Did you forget how slow and old they looked? Do you remember watching Van Noy and McCourty unable to run?

We put a lot of resources into our offensive line. We've made 5 draft choices in the last 2 years for the interior, 4 guards and a center.

We lack a solid tackle, a WR and most importantly a QB