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Think the owners are being the stubborn ones? Think again

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I think the players are concerned when revenue expand greatly in the next few years, and they will, that they wont benefit as much as they would like. Thats what i get from reading all the related articles this past week. Of course a floor is necessary too but they're afraid if revenues explode the owners will rake in all the cash.

Yes, in Borges' article that's clear. But I'm not sure if that's real or just an owner negotiating tactic. The article made it sound like the Players' reps weren't expecting the language on the overage.

That might just be a curveball.

I think Light is onto the crux of the matter though with revenue sharing. That was what held up the last CBA and caused the opt out language to be installed in the first place. There's no reason to believe that the thing that caused all the acrimony last time isn't the very thing causing all the acrimony this time, especially since it wasn't solved to the owner's satisfaction. I think the owners have some justification about revenue sharing BUT I do not know why we are constantly talking about expenses and salary caps and overages IF the owners are so concerned about sharing with owners. Is it because they don't trust one another? So as to make negotiations publicly about sharing? Is it because putting the onus on sharing on players (where it should be) somehow a losing PR proposition?
I just don't get it.
 
One of the things that is so irksome about the players not believing the owners will have more costs is the following:

1) 82 million towards the pension fund for pre-1993 players.. Totally paid for by the owners. This is a new expense.

2) The owners opening up the post-career medical for players.. The owners will be forking out money there.

3) The extra $1 million in injury guarantees for players... There is more money..

4) Not to mention the increase in the benefits in general.

Why is it so hard for the players to acknowledge those extra costs that the owners haven't had to pay previously???
 
One of the things that is so irksome about the players not believing the owners will have more costs is the following:

1) 82 million towards the pension fund for pre-1993 players.. Totally paid for by the owners. This is a new expense.

2) The owners opening up the post-career medical for players.. The owners will be forking out money there.

3) The extra $1 million in injury guarantees for players... There is more money..

4) Not to mention the increase in the benefits in general.

Why is it so hard for the players to acknowledge those extra costs that the owners haven't had to pay previously???

I think the players have. They have signaled a willingness to give some back.
 
Greg Gaiello tweeted earlier that part of the disconnect arises because people are looking at the 2009 cap # of $128M. Gaiello says that cap number ultimately reflected an overestimate of revenue when set and that total player cap (cap + benefits) for the year was $140M.

NFL salary cap rises $12 million to $128 million for 2009 - ESPN

says otherwise.

And if that is the case $141M represents a $1M cap and benefits increase over 2009.

Only if you believe that the owners will spend 100% of the cap in 2011. 90% of $114 million is $102.6 million. Add in $27 million in benefits. That totals $129.6 million which is less than what the owners spend in cash in 2009 ($141 million).

87% of $128M = $111M (cap floor in 2009).
The floor in 2009 was $107,748,000 - a difference of close to $3.25 million.

Owners had been spending in excess of $22M on benefits in a capped year and were proposing an increase of roughly $5M to $27M in 2011 and beyond.
The owners spent in 2009 $26.1 million in benefits.


If what Gaiello tweeted is correct it constitutes the basis for the owners claim that veteran players would not be losing money in 2011 and would be guaranteed $20M or 14% in cap increases over the next 4 years.

I do not that his tweet is correct and have asked him about the cash/cap adjustments. Given that the owners failed to meet the spending floor in 2006/2007/2008, why would the players believe that they would meet any future spending floors?
 
Miguel said:
Given that the owners failed to meet the spending floor in 2006/2007/2008, why would the players believe that they would meet any future spending floors?

Because as I just learned it would not be a cap floor but a cash floor.
 
One of the things that is so irksome about the players not believing the owners will have more costs is the following:

1) 82 million towards the pension fund for pre-1993 players.. Totally paid for by the owners. This is a new expense.

2) The owners opening up the post-career medical for players.. The owners will be forking out money there.

3) The extra $1 million in injury guarantees for players... There is more money..

4) Not to mention the increase in the benefits in general.

Why is it so hard for the players to acknowledge those extra costs that the owners haven't had to pay previously???

they have, I think thats how they arrived at thier 135 mill figure.
 
Given that the owners failed to meet the spending floor in 2006/2007/2008, why would the players believe that they would meet any future spending floors?


Where did you get that the owners failed to meet the cap floor from 2006 to 2008??

Miguel said:
Because as I just learned it would not be a cap floor but a cash floor.

And why did you turn around and change it from a cap floor to a cash floor?
 
they have, I think thats how they arrived at thier 135 mill figure.


Umm.. That was their counter to the $320 million number that the league threw out there. They mentioned nothing about acknowledging the new costs that the owners would incur.
 
From
NFLLabor.com Union should have made ?counter, discussed issue? if it had problem with NFL?s proposal

“What the union is saying now is that the cap didn’t go UP by enough,” Aiello concluded. “There is no question (a) that we offered an amount equal to or more than actual cash spending in 2009 or 2010; (b) that we offered to increase that amount by $20 million per club over the next three seasons; (c) that every club would spend at least 90 percent of that amount in cash; and (d) that we would commit somewhere between $19 and $20 billion to the players in four years. ”

In other words, the owners offered the players less money (cap + benefits) in 2011 that the players received in cash (cap + benefits) in 2009.
 
Umm.. That was their counter to the $320 million number that the league threw out there. They mentioned nothing about acknowledging the new costs that the owners would incur.

umm, yeah I know, Im taking that as an acknowledgement that they know expenses have gone up and that was their concession on that matter. The fact that they made a proposal with a higher giveback than is current means they made an offer to help offset rising costs.
 
Where did you get that the owners failed to meet the cap floor from 2006 to 2008?? And why did you turn around and change it from a cap floor to a cash floor?

I wish that you held yourself to the same standard that you seem to hold me - I have to back up my posts. You can accuse the NFLPA of providing false information without any corroboration.
 
Gaiello says that cap number ultimately reflected an overestimate of revenue when set and that total player cap (cap + benefits) for the year was $140M.

That's GALLING of Aiello to say that the 2009 revenue was overprojected when the owners went out of their way NOT to MAXIMIZE revenue in 2009.
 
That's GALLING of Aiello to say that the 2009 revenue was overprojected when the owners went out of their way NOT to MAXIMIZE revenue in 2009.

Aiello's claim reminds me of the old joke of when a person convicted of murdering his parents asks the court for mercy because he is now an orphan.

How can the owners say with a straight face that the 2009 revenue was overprojected when they failed to maximize it?
 
From
NFLLabor.com Union should have made ?counter, discussed issue? if it had problem with NFL?s proposal

“What the union is saying now is that the cap didn’t go UP by enough,” Aiello concluded. “There is no question (a) that we offered an amount equal to or more than actual cash spending in 2009 or 2010; (b) that we offered to increase that amount by $20 million per club over the next three seasons; (c) that every club would spend at least 90 percent of that amount in cash; and (d) that we would commit somewhere between $19 and $20 billion to the players in four years. ”

In other words, the owners offered the players less money (cap + benefits) in 2011 that the players received in cash (cap + benefits) in 2009.

Miguel,
I accept your facts 100% on their face, but I have a question.
Do you find it nefarious for the owners to offer a decrease in payrolls, considering they opted out of the deal that produced those numbers? For whatever reason if that deal was a poor one for them (whether expenses increased, or profits were more sluggish that thought, or they just simply felt they could renegotiate something better) do you find it unreasonable that they negoitated to lower payrolls? Or are you focussing on the doubletalk about what was offered and the public opinion struggle of who is at fault for the impasse?
 
Miguel,
I accept your facts 100% on their face, but I have a question.
Do you find it nefarious for the owners to offer a decrease in payrolls, considering they opted out of the deal that produced those numbers?
No.

For whatever reason if that deal was a poor one for them (whether expenses increased, or profits were more sluggish that thought, or they just simply felt they could renegotiate something better) do you find it unreasonable that they negoitated to lower payrolls?
No.
Or are you focussing on the doubletalk about what was offered and the public opinion struggle of who is at fault for the impasse?

I believe that no matter if the truth was made entirely public that the public opinion would still favor the owners.

Yes, I am focusing on the doubletalk.
 
Yes, in Borges' article that's clear. But I'm not sure if that's real or just an owner negotiating tactic. The article made it sound like the Players' reps weren't expecting the language on the overage.

That might just be a curveball.

I think Light is onto the crux of the matter though with revenue sharing. That was what held up the last CBA and caused the opt out language to be installed in the first place. There's no reason to believe that the thing that caused all the acrimony last time isn't the very thing causing all the acrimony this time, especially since it wasn't solved to the owner's satisfaction. I think the owners have some justification about revenue sharing BUT I do not know why we are constantly talking about expenses and salary caps and overages IF the owners are so concerned about sharing with owners. Is it because they don't trust one another? So as to make negotiations publicly about sharing? Is it because putting the onus on sharing on players (where it should be) somehow a losing PR proposition?
I just don't get it.

As the details of the owners' last offer comes out, it's becoming more and more clear that it was, at best, a PR gambit intended make it look like they were compromising and the players weren't. At worst, it was an attempt to pull one over on the players, and an insult to the intelligence of the players' counsel. Under their final offer - conveniently presented to the union only hours before the deadline - they would have gotten back all of the "off the top" money they were supposedly compromising on, just "off the bottom" instead.

What Light was pointing out is what I've been arguing during the entire thread - collectively, the league revenues are as high as they've ever been, and are growing much faster than the leagues' overall costs. It's just that the windfall is so unevenly distributed among the 32 franchises that you have a handful of franchises that really are just breaking even - only the owners are negotiating as if they're all cash-strapped.

Why they're doing this is pretty obvious - there are maybe 8 teams that truly need a boost in revenue in order to have money to spend to improve the franchise, and the other 24 owners would rather help those 8 teams shake the money out of the players than pony up for it themselves, and not without good reason.

For all of the league's most successful and influential owners, reopening the revenue-sharing can of worms can only end badly, with them having to share more of their individual franchise's local revenues with their less successful colleagues. Now, if they start including more revenue sources in the revenue sharing system, in order to make the amount of money they've been earning, they not only have to keep running their own franchise's well, they now need to get the Fords, Bidwells, Browns, etc. to start turning their franchises around.

That's not likely to happen any time soon - so in reality, the Krafts, Snyders, Jones would instead be looking at a future in which they're working harder to squeeze more money out of their franchises to make up for the Wilsons and York's inability or unwillingness to do the same with their own teams.

So instead, the successful owners are extra-motivated to go after the players for the money, because the last thing they want is for their fortunes to be even more tied up with those of their deadbeat colleagues.
 
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