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Think the owners are being the stubborn ones? Think again

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The players shouldnt be in the room, thats why they have people representing them, let them do the negotiating and keep the emotion out of it.
Its why they have agents.

More people in negotiations isn't a good thing. The players shouldn't be in the room but they are going to be. De Smith got elected by portraying himself as the anti-Upshaw. Upshaw didn't believe that sharing everything with the players was productive to getting a deal done. Players didn't especially like that and Smith told the players he was going to change that if elected. He has. It isn't change for the better but he isn't about to go back on it now.
 
The Packers play in the smallest market in the league, by a large margin, and are the only publicly owned team to boot. It's quite a leap to assume that they're representative of the rest of the NFL.

Wow, a 400 post thread with lots of research and valid points made on both sides. I envy those who can balance day jobs with some of the posting volume and appreciate all that folks have done to enlighten the rest of us.

I come down marginally on the side of the players for the reason that the owners are claiming that they can't earn an acceptable return and, no matter how we might characterize its relationship to past or future benefits ceded, that they need additional funds set aside for them off the top of the pyramid.

It seems to me that the Players are, then, entitled to see the owners' books. Every major union in the US has access to fully audited financials of the major publicly held companies for which they are working, including details of compensation of the top management. Every public employees union has access to the financial data on the states and municipalities for which they work.

If the Packers' statements are representative, then the Owners will have a strong argument for their position. However, there are enough "lines of interest" in the Income Statement to make looking at the books a useful exercise.

In the Packers' case (as far as I know, the only publicly owned Franchise in the NFL, but I am open to being corrected), Net Income before taxes and expansion revenue declined by 31.9MM between 2005 and 2010.

This was driven primarily by an increase in Player Costs of 62.9MM. Other Operating Expenses seem to have been managed reasonably well, growing at about 5% per year, from 68.4MM to 87.4MM over the five years and actually declining in the past two years. A trained eye, however, would want an explanation of the G&A expense growth at 9.1% per year, even though it seems to have been controlled in the last two years. Other Income/Expense went down 7.9MM from net 5.8MM of income to net 2.1MM of expense. Something else that warrants exploration.

During the same period, total Operating Income only grew 5.2% per year, Media Revenue growing 2.6% (from a large base) and game revenue growing 4.0%, all on a CAGR basis. However "Other Operating Income," a reflection of how the Franchise is marketing itself, grew at a robust 8.2% per year, suggesting that the Packers have been aggressively marketing their brand.

So, if all the books looked like this, the Owners would have a very strong case.

However, there are enough lines of interest, such as Marketing, Administrative, Team and G&A expenses along with "Other Operating Income" and "Other Income Expense" to make looking at the books a worthwhile exercise.

My guess is that some Franchises have been a lot less aggressive than the Packers in marketing their brands and a lot more aggressive in stuffing expenses into the business that pass muster with the IRS but might otherwise be dubious. But, there is only one way of finding this out to the reasonable satisfaction of an objective observer.

Finally, the players have clearly decided that litigation is more in their interests than negotiation. Only Judge Nelson will be able to tell them if that is true.
 
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Im still for the players, but they are acting just as bad... they need to shut up and in the next 3 weeks extend a olive branch to the owners and vice a versa, but to dictate to young players not to come to the draft , drew brees tweeting about being bitter... I think the owners wanted the lockout to break the union but the players are not making themselves look good right now...
 
Wow, a 400 post thread with lots of research and valid points made on both sides. I envy those who can balance day jobs with some of the posting volume and appreciate all that folks have done to enlighten the rest of us.

I come down marginally on the side of the players for the reason that the owners are claiming that they can't earn an acceptable return and, no matter how we might characterize its relationship to past or future benefits ceded, that they need additional funds set aside for them off the top of the pyramid.

It seems to me that the Players are, then, entitled to see the owners' books. Every major union in the US has access to fully audited financials of the major publicly held companies for which they are working, including details of compensation of the top management. Every public employees union has access to the financial data on the states and municipalities for which they work.

If the Packers' statements are representative, then the Owners will have a strong argument for their position. However, there are enough "lines of interest" in the Income Statement to make looking at the books a useful exercise.

In the Packers' case (as far as I know, the only publicly owned Franchise in the NFL, but I am open to being corrected), Net Income before taxes and expansion revenue declined by 31.9MM between 2005 and 2010.

This was driven primarily by an increase in Player Costs of 62.9MM. Other Operating Expenses seem to have been managed reasonably well, growing at about 5% per year, from 68.4MM to 87.4MM over the five years and actually declining in the past two years. A trained eye, however, would want an explanation of the G&A expense growth at 9.1% per year, even though it seems to have been controlled in the last two years. Other Income/Expense went down 7.9MM from net 5.8MM of income to net 2.1MM of expense. Something else that warrants exploration.

During the same period, total Operating Income only grew 5.2% per year, Media Revenue growing 2.6% (from a large base) and game revenue growing 4.0%, all on a CAGR basis. However "Other Operating Income," a reflection of how the Franchise is marketing itself, grew at a robust 8.2% per year, suggesting that the Packers have been aggressively marketing their brand.

So, if all the books looked like this, the Owners would have a very strong case.

However, there are enough lines of interest, such as Marketing, Administrative, Team and G&A expenses along with "Other Operating Income" and "Other Income Expense" to make looking at the books a worthwhile exercise.

My guess is that some Franchises have been a lot less aggressive than the Packers in marketing their brands and a lot more aggressive in stuffing expenses into the business that pass muster with the IRS but might otherwise be dubious. But, there is only one way of finding this out to the reasonable satisfaction of an objective observer.

Finally, the players have clearly decided that litigation is more in their interests than negotiation. Only Judge Nelson will be able to tell them if that is true.

The players aren't entitled to see any team's financials besides the Green Bay Packers since they are the only publicly held team. The benefit of being a private company is that they are not forced to disclose information that can be valuable to competitors. In this case, knowing how each team is performing financially can give an advantage to other teams since teams in a strong financial state could use leverage against a team in poorer financial state when it comes to trades, signing free agents, etc. Additionally, a player may choose to stay away from a team with poor financials because of the potential for being cut for under-performance, ownership changes, management changes, relocation, etc. Any of these scenarios would then impact the value of teams and hurt the idea of parity throughout the league.
 
The players aren't entitled to see any team's financials besides the Green Bay Packers since they are the only publicly held team. The benefit of being a private company is that they are not forced to disclose information that can be valuable to competitors. In this case, knowing how each team is performing financially can give an advantage to other teams since teams in a strong financial state could use leverage against a team in poorer financial state when it comes to trades, signing free agents, etc. Additionally, a player may choose to stay away from a team with poor financials because of the potential for being cut for under-performance, ownership changes, management changes, relocation, etc. Any of these scenarios would then impact the value of teams and hurt the idea of parity throughout the league.

It's not a question of entitlement. It's a request.

But, I'm on record as saying the whole "expenses" thing is a snowjob on the part of both the NFL and the players.

The real sticking point is the salary cap.
 
It's not a question of entitlement. It's a request.

But, I'm on record as saying the whole "expenses" thing is a snowjob on the part of both the NFL and the players.

The real sticking point is the salary cap.

The owners main argument is wanting more off the top for expenses relates mostly to building stadiums, mostly with their own money, for instance the Jets and Giants built a new very expensive stadium and planned on a certain amount of income from PSL's and luxury boxes. Unfortunately the economy tanked before it was completed and they didnt realize any where near the amout of income they planned on for expenses. They're asking the players since we're building these big beautiful stadiums for you to play in and we're not realizing the income expected we need more of the revenue to offset the carrying costs and spread the risk. I think theres about 20 stadiums that have been built or refurbished since the 90's and have a big debt load.
Now the TV contracts will be up in a few years and the revenue from new contracts should be a lot higher than now, the owners want to settle this before the contracts come up for renewal.
Whether you think the owners are right or not in asking for more money is the basis for debate.
 
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Holy cow this is confusing. I'm not an attorney or businessman or anything like that and I have no idea what to think, really. But here's my question (maybe this is in the wrong thread):

If there is now no CBA, and there is, in fact, no union that can negotiate on behalf of the players, why can't the owners deal directly with individual players?

In a public school setting, there is a CBA and the union negotiates with superintendent. Individual teachers cannot negotiate their own contracts.

In a private school setting, there is no CBA and there is no union to negotiate with the super. Individual teachers have to negotiate their own contracts.

So far as I understand it, anyway. So if there's no union and no CBA, why can't the owners just work with individual players?

Obviously there are good reasons why it can't be this simple. But I'm not sure what they are.
 
The owners main argument is wanting more off the top for expenses relates mostly to building stadiums, mostly with their own money, for instance the Jets and Giants built a new very expensive stadium and planned on a certain amount of income from PSL's and luxury boxes. Unfortunately the economy tanked before it was completed and they didnt realize any where near the amout of income they planned on for expenses. They're asking the players since we're building these big beautiful stadiums for you to play in and we're not realizing the income expected we need more of the revenue to offset the carrying costs and spread the risk. I think theres about 20 stadiums that have been built or refurbished since the 90's and have a big debt load.
Now the TV contracts will be up in a few years and the revenue from new contracts should be a lot higher than now, the owners want to settle this before the contracts come up for renewal.
Whether you think the owners are right or not in asking for more money is the basis for debate.

Balzer, in his article, explained it differently. He thought it had a lot more to do with revenue redistribution to teams. After all, what does Ralph Wilson care about Mara and Jones' PSLs? He doesn't unless he gets a cut. After all, those PSLs are driving up the price of the salary cap. The main issue is revenue distribution.
 
Balzer, in his article, explained it differently. He thought it had a lot more to do with revenue redistribution to teams. After all, what does Ralph Wilson care about Mara and Jones' PSLs? He doesn't unless he gets a cut. After all, those PSLs are driving up the price of the salary cap. The main issue is revenue distribution.

They go hand in hand, theres some teams not maximizing revenues which could help enlarge the pot. Ralph Wilson doesnt care about Maras PSL's, thats a problem among owners that they havent been able to setlle yet. I think thats Deus' argument, which is correct.
Im just throwing out there what the problems are, Im not picking one side over the other.
 
Balzer, in his article, explained it differently. He thought it had a lot more to do with revenue redistribution to teams. After all, what does Ralph Wilson care about Mara and Jones' PSLs? He doesn't unless he gets a cut. After all, those PSLs are driving up the price of the salary cap. The main issue is revenue distribution.

No he didn't. That's just what you read into a very good article. He said the fact that they had to agree on the final terms of a new supplemental revenue sharing agreement is what allowed for the opt out to be negotiated. It wasn't what led to the owners opting out. What did was the terms of the agreement to share TR instead of DGR with the players at a time when Gene was threatening them with an uncapped 2006 they weren't prepared for contractually (hell, Polian was threatening to sue the league because the terms of an expiring CBA would have kept him from converting the third of Mannings roster bonuses and amortizing it) unless he got his % from the same pie the owners were sharing and still demanding their % not deviate much from his line in the sand "figure beginning with a 6" leading to a cap increasing $43M (from $85M to $128M) over the next 4 seasons.

The trouble with fans is that by nature they are short sighted. Everyone wanted the owners to take whatever deal they had to to avoid a work stoppage in 2006 or 2007. That the owners fell into that trap is what landed us where we sit today. The goal going forward should be to hold out for a deal that will work fairly for both sides with minimal tweeking for the next 20 years, like the one that was negotiated back in 1993. That deal worked until 2005 when Gene Upshaw (likely with the pit bull slobbering in his ear) saw his chance to re-write his epitaph...which it turned out was going to be published imminently...from rubber stamp league toady to sea changing cult hero.
 
The players aren't entitled to see any team's financials besides the Green Bay Packers since they are the only publicly held team. The benefit of being a private company is that they are not forced to disclose information that can be valuable to competitors. In this case, knowing how each team is performing financially can give an advantage to other teams since teams in a strong financial state could use leverage against a team in poorer financial state when it comes to trades, signing free agents, etc. Additionally, a player may choose to stay away from a team with poor financials because of the potential for being cut for under-performance, ownership changes, management changes, relocation, etc. Any of these scenarios would then impact the value of teams and hurt the idea of parity throughout the league.

Here's my case on what the owners shouldn't have to open their books

1. This isn't about knowing how much revenue is coming in. The players have fully audited number reflecting those numbers they know EXACTLY how much money is coming in. Just as they know EXACTLY how much money is due them based on the old CBA. What the players want to know is how the owners are spending THEIR share.

2, And if the Pats, etc were publicly owned companies they'd have every right to do so. But not a single player put up a dime when Bob Kraft up up $187M on very risky venture back in 92. Not did they put up a dime when he took liability of over $360MM to build Gillette Stadium. What he does with his share of the money he makes at the end of the year is any business of the players, just as Kraft has no business knowing what Tom Brady has done with all the money he makes...not only from the Pats but from the other sources of income he generates specifically because he is a New England Patriot.

3. Before the owners open THEIR books they'd be fully justified in asking every individual player to open THEIR books so the owners could see how THEY were handling their wealth?

Bottom LINE - there have been too many sources that show that the owners had made significant movement toward the players. The fact that they chose to cut off negotiations and not continue proves CONCLUSIVELY that their primary goal was not to come to a compromise, but to litigate the issue and have a settlement imposed by the courts

And their key advisor in this, Kessler, had a vested interest in this line of attack. He will make millions with this tack, and the longer it goes on, the more he makes. Its a brutal example of a conflict of interest that every one of the 500 FAs should be thinking about while they are out of work

4.That is why the books of the Packers are so valuable and so germane to this issue. If the Packers are only managing to realize 2% profit on such a huge revenue stream, it is very likely that there ARE several other teams making less....as well as several that are making more.

Things I wonder:

Who pays for Brady's lawyers? It can't be the "union" since it doesn't exist
 
The players aren't entitled to see any team's financials besides the Green Bay Packers since they are the only publicly held team. The benefit of being a private company is that they are not forced to disclose information that can be valuable to competitors. In this case, knowing how each team is performing financially can give an advantage to other teams since teams in a strong financial state could use leverage against a team in poorer financial state when it comes to trades, signing free agents, etc. Additionally, a player may choose to stay away from a team with poor financials because of the potential for being cut for under-performance, ownership changes, management changes, relocation, etc. Any of these scenarios would then impact the value of teams and hurt the idea of parity throughout the league.

No one said anything about the players being "entitled" to see the owners' financials, the question is whether it's a reasonable request.

Your argument is weakened by the fact that most of the largest companies in the world are public and disclose by law far more information than, for example, the Packers disclose to their shareholders.

I've come down on the side of the players, but I think the dial is pretty close to the middle in terms of which side has the stronger case for their position.

The owners all know pretty much where the others stand...which franchises are strong and which are not. I don't think the issue is that the owners are worried about other owners finding out too much, but rather that they are worried about being embarrassed by having details of how they spend money made public; what might pass muster with the taxman might not look so good to others. Most of these guys are entrepreneurs or small business owners who have grown used to confidentiality in their dealings.

I also think that players pretty well know which franchises are solid and well-run and which are less attractive, so I don't see that as a problem either. As far as the impact on parity goes, it's no secret that some franchises are doing well and others are struggling, so any impact on parity is already built into the status quo.

What's interesting to me is that the players have concluded that they are better off litigating than negotiating. This usually only happens when there is a material breach or breakdown of trust between two parties. Clearly, the players feel it is to their advantage that the spending patterns and discipline (or lack thereof) of certain teams be made public. With the kind of money that's on the table, it's really not an unreasonable request.

The interesting thing is that if every team's books look like the Packers', then the players don't have much of an argument. I've gone through the numbers and would evaluate the Green Bay organization as a reasonably well-run enterprise with opportunities for improvement in a few areas. But, the players are confident that a broad disclosure would reveal that all teams are not that well managed.
 
No one said anything about the players being "entitled" to see the owners' financials, the question is whether it's a reasonable request.

Your argument is weakened by the fact that most of the largest companies in the world are public and disclose by law far more information than, for example, the Packers disclose to their shareholders.

I've come down on the side of the players, but I think the dial is pretty close to the middle in terms of which side has the stronger case for their position.

The owners all know pretty much where the others stand...which franchises are strong and which are not. I don't think the issue is that the owners are worried about other owners finding out too much, but rather that they are worried about being embarrassed by having details of how they spend money made public; what might pass muster with the taxman might not look so good to others. Most of these guys are entrepreneurs or small business owners who have grown used to confidentiality in their dealings.

I also think that players pretty well know which franchises are solid and well-run and which are less attractive, so I don't see that as a problem either. As far as the impact on parity goes, it's no secret that some franchises are doing well and others are struggling, so any impact on parity is already built into the status quo.

What's interesting to me is that the players have concluded that they are better off litigating than negotiating. This usually only happens when there is a material breach or breakdown of trust between two parties. Clearly, the players feel it is to their advantage that the spending patterns and discipline (or lack thereof) of certain teams be made public. With the kind of money that's on the table, it's really not an unreasonable request.

The interesting thing is that if every team's books look like the Packers', then the players don't have much of an argument. I've gone through the numbers and would evaluate the Green Bay organization as a reasonably well-run enterprise with opportunities for improvement in a few areas. But, the players are confident that a broad disclosure would reveal that all teams are not that well managed.

Here's on thing I want to know, is the NFL's Supplemental Revenue plan disbursed directly to teams? Or is it a credit that comes from the NFL? Would it appear in the books at al?

The reason I ask is this. A top franchise like Dallas makes a good deal of profit. Then they have to fork a chunk over to the NFL to be disbursed to the small market teams. Presumably that would show up in the small market books. But the taxman might not see it that way. Dallas made the profit, they might have to pay tax on the profit they made.

I'd be interested to know what revs Green bay is talking reporting. Andy Johnson and I have already been through this once and we are both stumped. The NFL makes $4 billion in revenues from its TV contracts. But Green Bay reported a very limited amount in TV revenues. It almost looked like local revenues from preseason games.

So, the question is, DOES the NFL, as a corporation, report those profits and take taxes on them? And not the teams? And, if so, how does the NFL distribute that money to the teams? In the form of credits?

It would seem nearly impossible for GB to receive so little of a $4 billion yearly TV pie.
 
No he didn't. That's just what you read into a very good article. He said the fact that they had to agree on the final terms of a new supplemental revenue sharing agreement is what allowed for the opt out to be negotiated. It wasn't what led to the owners opting out. What did was the terms of the agreement to share TR instead of DGR with the players at a time when Gene was threatening them with an uncapped 2006 they weren't prepared for contractually (hell, Polian was threatening to sue the league because the terms of an expiring CBA would have kept him from converting the third of Mannings roster bonuses and amortizing it) unless he got his % from the same pie the owners were sharing and still demanding their % not deviate much from his line in the sand "figure beginning with a 6" leading to a cap increasing $43M (from $85M to $128M) over the next 4 seasons.

The trouble with fans is that by nature they are short sighted. Everyone wanted the owners to take whatever deal they had to to avoid a work stoppage in 2006 or 2007. That the owners fell into that trap is what landed us where we sit today. The goal going forward should be to hold out for a deal that will work fairly for both sides with minimal tweeking for the next 20 years, like the one that was negotiated back in 1993. That deal worked until 2005 when Gene Upshaw (likely with the pit bull slobbering in his ear) saw his chance to re-write his epitaph...which it turned out was going to be published imminently...from rubber stamp league toady to sea changing cult hero.

Here's what Balzer wrote verbatim:

The new deal had a term of seven years. However, because the owners would have to subsequently agree to a supplemental revenue sharing plan where high-revenue teams would pay out money to lower-revenue teams, the owners had included in the CBA an option for either side to opt out of the final two years (2011 and 2012) by November 2008.

He's not saying that the Supplemental Revenue negotiations allowed them to subsequently negotiate an opt-out. He said BECAUSE of the Supplemental, the owners included an opt-out. The two went hand-in-hand. I'm not the one reading this incorrectly.

Furthermore, we know at the time that the CBA was about to go down in flames because all the small-market teams sided with the Bills and Bengals, until the NFL came up with the revenue plan. Why did Brown and Wilson still balk at the new Supplemental? Not because they thought the players were taking too much money, but because the Supplemental wasn't big enough. They wanted MORE money from their fellow owners. I can find a lot of articles that show this was the major concern Wilson.

I'll say it again: the amount that is currently being disputed between the players and owners is VERY near to the amount of the revenue sharing plan. Which makes sense, since the players benefit from revenue sharing, and therefore it's reasonable for the owners to expect the players to pick up the cost.

I've been saying the players need assurances for a soft cap floor if there's going to be revenue sharing.

Well, seems as though the NFL has agreed to that. A soft floor of about 90% the cap will need to be maintained.
 
Here's on thing I want to know, is the NFL's Supplemental Revenue plan disbursed directly to teams? Or is it a credit that comes from the NFL? Would it appear in the books at al?

The reason I ask is this. A top franchise like Dallas makes a good deal of profit. Then they have to fork a chunk over to the NFL to be disbursed to the small market teams. Presumably that would show up in the small market books. But the taxman might not see it that way. Dallas made the profit, they might have to pay tax on the profit they made.

I'd be interested to know what revs Green bay is talking reporting. Andy Johnson and I have already been through this once and we are both stumped. The NFL makes $4 billion in revenues from its TV contracts. But Green Bay reported a very limited amount in TV revenues. It almost looked like local revenues from preseason games.

So, the question is, DOES the NFL, as a corporation, report those profits and take taxes on them? And not the teams? And, if so, how does the NFL distribute that money to the teams? In the form of credits?

It would seem nearly impossible for GB to receive so little of a $4 billion yearly TV pie.

Those are all good questions. And I don't claim to know the answer to all of them.

I don't know how the Supplemental Revenue Sharing plan works, but the gross amount is around $100MM. If it is truly "Revenue" then it has to be on the books and accounted for for tax purposes. I suppose it could be stuck into the Media line or it could be in the "Other NFL Revenue" line. It would be far too logical for it to be in the "revenue sharing income" line and so that line is blank.

As for expensing it if you're a rich team, it's probably somewhere under G&A as I don't think it could be called "marketing." I'm sure they got a tax ruling on this before they signed the contract, so I'm assuming it's considered a legitimate expense for figuring taxable income.

As I understand it,the annual NFL broadcast revenues are $3.1b per year. People talk of it as $4.0b, so maybe that's it. The 3.1 would average to around 96MM per team, but I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

It looks like the "$9 billion dollar pie" that everyone talks about includes the game and concession revenues as well as most of the stuff under "Other Operating Income." If you multiply the $258MM "Total Operating Income" of the Packers by 32, you get $8.3b, which is getting close to the $9.0b. And, we have to remember that they are a small market team.

In order to know how all that money is accounted for, I'd have to see the contracts between the NFL and the Networks and the teams. If the TV revenues come directly to the NFL, then it is most likely just a "pass through" where it sits in a trust account or something until it is disbursed with net zero tax effect, but that's just a guess. There are probably some netting credits involved, but I'm just guessing at that. If, for example, a team that gets $100 of TV revenue is also a "Revenue Giving" team, and if that team's obligation to the pool is $5, then the $5 could either be held by the NFL and immediately disbursed to the "Revenue Getting" teams with the net to the Team of $95 taxable dollars, or the whole $100 could go straight to the team, with $5 as a tax deductible payment back to the league deducted at some point.
 
No one said anything about the players being "entitled" to see the owners' financials, the question is whether it's a reasonable request.

Yet here is the post you wrote verbatim:

I come down marginally on the side of the players for the reason that the owners are claiming that they can't earn an acceptable return and, no matter how we might characterize its relationship to past or future benefits ceded, that they need additional funds set aside for them off the top of the pyramid.

It seems to me that the Players are, then, entitled to see the owners' books. Every major union in the US has access to fully audited financials of the major publicly held companies for which they are working, including details of compensation of the top management. Every public employees union has access to the financial data on the states and municipalities for which they work.


Nowhere do you mention that you think it is a request. You clearly say that the players are entitled to see the owners financials because other unions see the financials of the public companies they work for.

Your argument is weakened by the fact that most of the largest companies in the world are public and disclose by law far more information than, for example, the Packers disclose to their shareholders.

Yes, there are thousands of public companies that share their audited financials. However, do you see public companies going around releasing proprietary information in these financials to their shareholders? Of course not. Companies like Coke or Apple are required to release their financials because they have public shareholders who require visibility. However, they do not release information like the recipe to Coca Cola or the specs to the newest iPad or iPod. All they release are historical financial data, detail driving the historical data, and some extremely high-level statements about future strategies.

In the NFL, a team's management could and should view financial standing as proprietary information in regards to their overall team strategy. Having their financial information released could easily compromise their strategy since players and other teams would then have greater leverage in negotiations. Players negotiating with teams that have strong financials could hold out for the best possible deal if they know the money is available. Teams with a better financial standing could strongarm weaker teams in terms of trades. For example, if Team B was interested in trading a 2nd round pick for a player catches wind that Team A is struggling financially and cannot resign that player, then Team B would either offer a worse pick or may not offer a pick at all.

A fine example of a team that refuses to release any info publicly is BB and the Patriots. Why? Because he doesn't want to give any team any sort of advantage over his team whether it be in trades, the free agent market, or on gameday.
 
Those are all good questions. And I don't claim to know the answer to all of them.

I don't know how the Supplemental Revenue Sharing plan works, but the gross amount is around $100MM. If it is truly "Revenue" then it has to be on the books and accounted for for tax purposes. I suppose it could be stuck into the Media line or it could be in the "Other NFL Revenue" line. It would be far too logical for it to be in the "revenue sharing income" line and so that line is blank.

As for expensing it if you're a rich team, it's probably somewhere under G&A as I don't think it could be called "marketing." I'm sure they got a tax ruling on this before they signed the contract, so I'm assuming it's considered a legitimate expense for figuring taxable income.

As I understand it,the annual NFL broadcast revenues are $3.1b per year. People talk of it as $4.0b, so maybe that's it. The 3.1 would average to around 96MM per team, but I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

It looks like the "$9 billion dollar pie" that everyone talks about includes the game and concession revenues as well as most of the stuff under "Other Operating Income." If you multiply the $258MM "Total Operating Income" of the Packers by 32, you get $8.3b, which is getting close to the $9.0b. And, we have to remember that they are a small market team.

In order to know how all that money is accounted for, I'd have to see the contracts between the NFL and the Networks and the teams. If the TV revenues come directly to the NFL, then it is most likely just a "pass through" where it sits in a trust account or something until it is disbursed with net zero tax effect, but that's just a guess. There are probably some netting credits involved, but I'm just guessing at that. If, for example, a team that gets $100 of TV revenue is also a "Revenue Giving" team, and if that team's obligation to the pool is $5, then the $5 could either be held by the NFL and immediately disbursed to the "Revenue Getting" teams with the net to the Team of $95 taxable dollars, or the whole $100 could go straight to the team, with $5 as a tax deductible payment back to the league deducted at some point.

Thanks for having a crack at it.

The 3.1 billion for TV is all network money.

It doesn't account for $700 million from DirectTV.

Nor does it account for foreign TV rights, the most substantial of which come from Canada in the amount of 20 million (a bargain for CTV since the Super Bowl alone captures an average audience of 8 million while topping out at 17 million, and weekly games do 3 million).

Then there's the local preseason TV, plus NFL Network revenues.

So, they're at 3.8 billion before counting world rights, preseason and NFL Network.
 
I don't recall exactly what information about the NFL's finances you guys are trying to deduce, but there's a lot of data collected by Forbes magazine for each of the league's thirty-two franchises available on their website. (Link goes to master list - clicking on each team takes you an in-depth write up.)

One of the things that becomes apparent is that the Packers not a good example of the profitability of an average NFL team. There are presently only 5 franchises with a lower operating income, and two of those - the Giants and Jets - are only at the bottom this year because of the costs of their new stadium. With that off their books, and the all the increased revenues it entails, the NY franchises should be up towards the top next season.

The average operating income is north of $30 million. There's a difference of $150 million between the top and bottom.
 
I don't recall exactly what information about the NFL's finances you guys are trying to deduce, but there's a lot of data collected by Forbes magazine for each of the league's thirty-two franchises available on their website. (Link goes to master list - clicking on each team takes you an in-depth write up.)

One of the things that becomes apparent is that the Packers not a good example of the profitability of an average NFL team. There are presently only 5 franchises with a lower operating income, and two of those - the Giants and Jets - are only at the bottom this year because of the costs of their new stadium. With that off their books, and the all the increased revenues it entails, the NY franchises should be up towards the top next season.

The average operating income is north of $30 million. There's a difference of $150 million between the top and bottom.

On this topic the Pack has a wicked low 2% debt/value ratio. Most teams have several tens of % debt/value. The debt will not go "off their books" anytime soon. It shows that many owners are borrowing heavily to meet expenses; I assume (Jets, Gints, to a lesser extent Pats) it's stadia. Note how that bastid Polian has low debt since he fleeced the taxpayers for his palace. I don't think this limited data helps the NFLPA*
 
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I don't recall exactly what information about the NFL's finances you guys are trying to deduce, but there's a lot of data collected by Forbes magazine for each of the league's thirty-two franchises available on their website. (Link goes to master list - clicking on each team takes you an in-depth write up.)

One of the things that becomes apparent is that the Packers not a good example of the profitability of an average NFL team. There are presently only 5 franchises with a lower operating income, and two of those - the Giants and Jets - are only at the bottom this year because of the costs of their new stadium. With that off their books, and the all the increased revenues it entails, the NY franchises should be up towards the top next season.

The average operating income is north of $30 million. There's a difference of $150 million between the top and bottom.


Excluding the Cowboys, Redskins and Patriots, the AVG revenue was 238.8 million per team. The other "top revenue teams" were the Houston Texans ($272) and The Eagles ($260)

Using operating income isn't a good way to do things because it excludes Taxes, Amortization, Depreciation and interest. Things that all affect the profit margin.
 
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