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Think the owners are being the stubborn ones? Think again

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Isn't the $1 billion off the top of the 9. Players and owners split 8 bill 60/40. So an increase of 2 billion is 25% of revenues.

120 billion more to the players, 80 billion more to the owners. The increase in player costs is paid for by the increase in total revenues, as agreed to in the CBA. EVERYBODY WINS.

Correct.

The owners in the old deal got $1B first before any revenue was split among the remaining money. They opted out and wanted $2B off the top first before any revenue splits. This entire thing was started by the owners opting out of the original deal and wanting more up front money and a higher % of the remaining money too.
 
That's why I was asking about costs.

Look, a Cadillac health insurance policy is 15k these days.

15k x 800 players - say, 7.5k in the previous CBA = $6 million. Not a very big number.

What other expenses?

I listed them specifically.
You're still focused on crude oil prices which have minimal relevancy in an attempt to support your erroneous claims that costs have decreased for teams since the last CBA.
 
Let's face it. We are all listening to spin from both sides and believing what we want to believe from both sides. None of us know the real number of the offers and the differences between the two sides. We know what each side's interpretation of this information. Most likely the truth lies between the two sides' spin.

Again, my only point when starting this thread was that the owners did make significant movement in their offer and the players should have continued to negotiate. Didn't say they should take the offer, but it was movement.

I still think the players are taking a big risk here.

- The league can argue in court that they made a fair offer in good faith and the courts could force the players to take the NFL's last offer if they agree.
-If there is never another CBA (unlikely, but possible), the players screw over the very people they claim they are trying to protect (low salaried players and retired players). With no CBA, the league does not pay a shared extended benefits package including into a pension fund anymore.
- Also as PFT points out, players will not have anyone watching their backs on disputes like failed drug tests or other greivances. It will be the individual player vs. the league.
- With no CBA, there is no salary floor. Teams like the Jags and Bengals have the opportunity to become the NFL's version of the Pittsburgh Pirates (the Pirates' entire payroll is about as big as some of the highest individual players in MLB salary is).

The rewards could be big for the players, but the risk might outweigh the rewards. Time will tell.
 
I listed them specifically.
You're still focused on crude oil prices which have minimal relevancy in an attempt to support your erroneous claims that costs have decreased for teams since the last CBA.

Sigh. Man oh Man. Answering posts in this thread is like plugging holes in a dike. I listed oil because people were talking about the general business climate, not football. In the post you're responding to, where do you see me mention oil? HELLLLLLLOOOO!!!!! I mentioned health insurance. No oil mentioned at all.
 
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Sigh. Man oh Man. Answering posts in this thread is like plugging holes in a dike. I listed oil because people were talking about the general business climate, not football. In the post you're responding to, where do you see me mention oil? HELLLLLLLOOOO!!!!! I mentioned health insurance. No oil mentioned at all.

Another dodge
 
Reasonably mistake, but that mistake invalidates your point that the cost at the time of the CBA was higher than it has been since.

Yes indeed it does, but obviously I was responding to costs in the land. People brought up other businesses and the general business climate. I don't have the time or inclination to do it but someone could look at average prices in the various periods to determine when gas costs were higher.

Going forward, obviously, the price of gas will be an issue. I'm just doubtful that it was an issue during the last 3 years of economic mayhem.
 
They chose lawsuit over collective bargaining. Why would the owners sit in a negotiation with the former union that turned negotiation into a lawsuit? That would be foolhardy, especially after the plaintiffs included as part of their claim the comments made by the NFL during negotations in order to hold it against them and use it as proof of their claim.

That may be, but you gotta know the two sides will be talking regardless. Don't think all the players are sitting back idly.
 
What? Where does the deal say the union gets to look at the books?

There is no dispute over revenue calculations. If there were, then I would agree, but they have been 100% transparent with revenue. They have no obligation to be transparent with what they do with their 40%.


They have not alleged this. Now you are saying the NFL should turn over their financials willingly so that the NFLPA can pore over them and see if they can sue them for something else? Really?

What I'm saying is that recent legal precedent makes it clear that when one party promises another party a percentage of revenues or profits on a joint venture, the owed party has a right to dispute and verify the financial transactions and accounting relevant to their stake to ensure that a good faith effort was made to maximize revenue and profit.

So what I'm saying is that the NFL should have turned over their financials willingly during negotiations rather than wait until they're required to do so by the courts... which the above-cited precedent combined with the NFL already having been found to have failed to negotiate the TV deal in good faith makes pretty much an eventuality in any legal dispute.

And I do not believe that NFL has been 100% transparent with their revenue. The shared-revenue, perhaps -- though they were found to have negotiated in bad faith in that, already.

But owners haven't been forced to account for their non-shared revenue, so we have no idea to what degree that's been maximized in good faith. Have any owners sold the rights to paid parking revenues to their own subsidiary below value? Have any luxury suites been given below value to corporations engaged in non-football business ventures with the owners? Et cetera.


Source? Rooney says they didnt even look at them, how did there banks and accounting firms pass judgement on what they did not even look at? I think you made this one up.

Per PFT:The NFL’s offer on March 7 to give the NFLPA a single sheet of numbers was NOT financial disclosure. The players’ accountants and bankers advised that the “offered” information was meaningless: only two numbers for each year.

I would respond if I saw one.

Again, if the owners turned over the financials(assuming they did it before decertification), what do you think would happen after that?
Because the reakl answer is that it would divide the sides further, because now they would each interpret them differently, and with 320 annual financial statements there is a gap as wide as the Grand Canyon for interpretation, and would now have to stop negotiation the agreement while they argue over what the financials say.

What do you think would happen if they did turn them over, and how would it help anything?

Well, first of all, had the owners turned over their financials, the players would have agreed to a deadline extension, and the two sides would still be in mediation, with the transparency issues behind them.

Just as the owners didn't really need to justify their asking for an additional $1 billion off the top, the NFLPA doesn't need to justify demanding financial information. It doesn't matter why the players want it, they do, and the NFL chose to go to court rather than provide the players something at no cost to the owners, outside of some printer paper and toner. The general principle that it's not the NFLPA's business would be a monumentally stupid reason to tank negotiations over.

So why didn't the NFL want to turn the documents over? Well, according to the Peter King article Miguel linked to, King estimates that had the issue been put to a vote, 24 of the 32 owners would have preferred releasing the documents over tanking the negotiations. The Broncos owner has even broken with ranks and publicly said he'd have supported the disclosure.

What it comes down to is that, even assuming nothing that puts the owners' in breech of the initial CBA comes out of the disclosure, refocuses the negotiations on what many are calling the 'elephant in the room' during these CBA negotiations -- the tenuous revenue sharing agreement between the owners.

Essentially, the owners had to ask for the additional $1 billion dollars off the top can so they could present a unified front to the players. The teams that have maximized their non-shared revenue streams don't need it, but since their less profitable colleagues do, the flush owners will heartily support getting the money back from the players, rather than being forced to share any more of their own revenues with the less-industrious owners.

With the teams' finances on the table, the NFLPA could point to the fact that about half the teams' revenues are showing excellent growth, and turning operating profits of $50 to $150 million dollars, while the others show meager revenue growth in the non-shared streams. If the NFLPA accedes to the league's demands, this situation where half the teams are maximizing their revenues and half the teams are living off handouts from the other owners and the players will just continue. The chances of the revenues coming in short of the projections will be high, and even if they don't, the NFL will need to ask for another $1 billion off the top the next time the CBA expires.

Putting all of the financial information on the table allows everyone to recognize the elephant in the room - that the problem isn't between the owners and the players, its between the "have" owners and the "have not" owners. The owners' revenue-sharing system is established on as part of each CBA, and should absolutely be on the table in these negotiations. Forcing full financial disclosure seemed to be the only way to get the owners to break ranks and admit this.

The NFLPA would have been in better position to sell taking more off the top of revenues in the present to their constituents if they could point to changes the owners made in their revenue-sharing system that would ensure that all franchises start maximizing all their revenue streams, eventually increasing the total pot for the players, and making future 'off the top' concessions unnecessary.
 
Let's face it. We are all listening to spin from both sides and believing what we want to believe from both sides. None of us know the real number of the offers and the differences between the two sides. We know what each side's interpretation of this information. Most likely the truth lies between the two sides' spin.

Again, my only point when starting this thread was that the owners did make significant movement in their offer and the players should have continued to negotiate. Didn't say they should take the offer, but it was movement.

I still think the players are taking a big risk here.

- The league can argue in court that they made a fair offer in good faith and the courts could force the players to take the NFL's last offer if they agree.
-If there is never another CBA (unlikely, but possible), the players screw over the very people they claim they are trying to protect (low salaried players and retired players). With no CBA, the league does not pay a shared extended benefits package including into a pension fund anymore.
- Also as PFT points out, players will not have anyone watching their backs on disputes like failed drug tests or other greivances. It will be the individual player vs. the league.
- With no CBA, there is no salary floor. Teams like the Jags and Bengals have the opportunity to become the NFL's version of the Pittsburgh Pirates (the Pirates' entire payroll is about as big as some of the highest individual players in MLB salary is).

The rewards could be big for the players, but the risk might outweigh the rewards. Time will tell.

If the risk is the courts force the NFLPA to take the league's last, best offer, that's not that worse an outcome than having accepted the offer.

If there never is another CBA... than the NFL will eventually wither and die. A sports league simply cannot operate without the players having collectively bargained away certain key protections of US labor law. So any speculation of how it would or wouldn't hurt the players is not only critically debatable, but also pointless.

There will be another CBA. It's just a question of when, and how much the 2011 season will get screwed up before then.
 
If the risk is the courts force the NFLPA to take the league's last, best offer, that's not that worse an outcome than having accepted the offer.

If there never is another CBA... than the NFL will eventually wither and die. A sports league simply cannot operate without the players having collectively bargained away certain key protections of US labor law. So any speculation of how it would or wouldn't hurt the players is not only critically debatable, but also pointless.

There will be another CBA. It's just a question of when, and how much the 2011 season will get screwed up before then.

I agree it is no worse than accepting the offer, but it is worse that countering the offer and continue negotiating and getting that offer closer to what they want. There is no guarantee that the last offer from the NFL was their final offer. If the courts side with them, it will be though.

I think the league could survive without a CBA since it has before. The league went without a CBA for a number of years. In 1987, the player's union decertified and there was no union or CBA again until 1993. So the NFL survived for nearly six years without a CBA.
 
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Are there any sportswriters on the owner's side?

Seriously ... I see many on the players side ... that is a no duh scenario.

Sportswriters need to cozy up to the players ... not the owners.

Owners getting more bad press than is deserved ... the story is not being told equitably.
 
Are there any sportswriters on the owner's side?

Seriously ... I see many on the players side ... that is a no duh scenario.

Sportswriters need to cozy up to the players ... not the owners.

Owners getting more bad press than is deserved ... the story is not being told equitably.

Not sure I follow the logic.

Why would the sportswriters need to cozy up to the players more than guy who gives his team's director of media relations his marching orders?
 
NFL lockout is bad, but resolution closer than it appears - Peter King - SI.com

So it is now Rapoport, Clayton, Balzer, and King who have reported that the owners' final offer for the 2011 season was a 114 million cap plus benefits.

If we take Jeff Pash at his word that the owners significantly improved their offer for the 2011 season it means that prior offers were offering the players an even smaller cap for the 2011 season.

Please remember that the 2009 cap was $128 million plus benefits. Please also remember that the owners failed to maximize the 2009 cap.

Those numbers just don't make much sense. If all the "cap" numbers King is quoting (based on information from a player rep) includes $25M in benefits, then the players offer for 2011 ($151M) is actually a salary cap of $126M. Couple of questions:

1) Does anyone believe the players offered a salary cap figure in 2011 that was lower than the cap in 2009 ($128M -> $126M)? After seeing unprecedented year-to-year salary growth for the last several years? I don't buy it. That would make player salary (not total compensation) at about 43% of total revenue.

2) Since when did any mention of the salary cap include benefits? Until the last week, I have never heard it used in that context. I've heard benefits mentioned when discussing the revenue split, but never when the term "cap" was used. It is a salary cap, not a compensation cap.
 
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I agree it is no worse than accepting the offer, but it is worse that countering the offer and continue negotiating and getting that offer closer to what they want. There is no guarantee that the last offer from the NFL was their final offer. If the courts side with them, it will be though.

I think the league could survive without a CBA since it has before. The league went without a CBA for a number of years. In 1987, the player's union decertified and there was no union or CBA again until 1993. So the NFL survived for nearly six years without a CBA.

a) There's still no guarantee that the NFL has made its final offer. Negotiations can and will continue throughout the litigation process.

b) Yes, and the reason things changed in 1993 was because, having several crucial verdicts and decisions go against them, the owners saw the writing on the wall, and realized that they'd lose Reggie White v. the NFL, the ramifications of which would make them unable to continue to operate.
 
Those numbers just don't make much sense. If all the "cap" numbers King is quoting (based on information from a player rep) includes $25M in benefits, then the players offer for 2011 ($151M) is actually a salary cap of $126M. Couple of questions:

1) Does anyone believe the players offered a salary cap figure in 2011 that was lower than the cap in 2009 ($128M -> $126M)? After seeing unprecedented year-to-year salary growth for the last several years? I don't buy it. That would make player salary (not total compensation) at about 43% of total revenue.

2) Since when did any mention of the salary cap include benefits? Until the last week, I have never heard it used in that context. I've heard benefits mentioned when discussing the revenue split, but never when the term "cap" was used. It is a salary cap, not a compensation cap.

The players did offer a $137m giveback. Divided by 32 teams, that's about $4.2m per team.
 
The players did offer a $137m giveback. Divided by 32 teams, that's about $4.2m per team.

Giveback from what? Without a starting point, that doesn't tell us much.
 
Are there any sportswriters on the owner's side?

Seriously ... I see many on the players side ... that is a no duh scenario.

Sportswriters need to cozy up to the players ... not the owners.

Owners getting more bad press than is deserved ... the story is not being told equitably.

Mostly sportswriters are on the side of the most compelling or appealing story. The whole business end of football is lost on most of them and they were bored a month ago with the whole thing because the owners seemed to have the upper hand and there hasn't been a work stoppage in decades. Then when the Doty card was played (hopefully for the last time) and they sensed leverage shifting and drama building they got onboard the good ship labor that appeared poised to knock ownership on it's ear... That has made it increasingly hard for them to sift through the spin cycle over the last couple of days.

Doty's gone, some woman judge has the case and even the TV deals portion which the owners originally won in front of the special mediator and the 2010 collusion charge filed earlier and still pending any decision may now shift to her court to be merged. And there is that little matter of the pesky language in the now expired but then still binding CBA nobody ever reads until after the fact that said the sham defense was out unless you did one thing...decertify before the CBA officially expired...which of course the NFLPA did so that the lawsuit by the non union players could proceed in front of and on Doty's nickle...which it apparently won't now anyway.

A lot of mediots and their less ambitious peers are making a lot less than they used to unless of course they have become multi mediots because the folks who own the papers they all used to write for have collectively negotiated their field into one they can't afford to earn a living at without working 3 jobs even though the outfits that own those papers are still headed up by...billionaires. Mediots see themselves as talent, so they identify more closely with athletes than owners. You don't think a guy like Mazz doesn't resent the hell out of the fact that he was once considered an elite baseball columnist and now he's playing Frick to Felger's Flack to make the mortgage payments on his suburban home... Guys who looked down on bloggers and radio goons TV talking heads are now forced to become them just to make a living...
 
1) Does anyone believe the players offered a salary cap figure in 2011 that was lower than the cap in 2009 ($128M -> $126M)? After seeing unprecedented year-to-year salary growth for the last several years? I don't buy it.

Alternatively,I do not buy the owners' offer was to have a $161 million cap in 2014 plus $25 million per club in benefits.
 
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