The Situation At Safety

[Sciz]

Spot on Mack.

Mcourty plays deep center field so that he cant get his butt burned. More often that not, he is late or out of the play so you rarely hear his name mentioned. Hes fantastic at flying under the radar.

NFL offensive coordinators are not lying awake at night worried on how they will ever get by Devin "Elite" McCourty.

Alright, I'll play along. Show me all of these plays where McCourty got "his butt burned." I already helped you out with two great examples. Give me more.

Give me plays. None of this generalization crap.

 

[All22PatsFan]

Not sure how you get "awfully good job"? McCourty was voted all pro, but so was Meriweather. Patriots pass defense was closer to the bottom than the top in many important passing stats. In pass plays >20 yards defense was 20th in the NFL, 31st in passing first downs per game, 30th in first down %. Seems to me while he doesn't make a whole lot of plays (not a ball hawk, not a force in the run game, not a physical presence, struggles with his back to the QB) he also gives up plenty. It is also noteworthy that when BB looked for someone to put everyone in the right place (green dot), he tabbed the much maligned Gregory over McCourty. Compared to the turnstyles we have put out there the past few years, McCourty is a welcome relief, but I cannot see how he ranks "among the best in the NFL."

QUOTE=Triumph;3752970]Well, that explains why Mcourty is "Elite". There is no way that he is one of the Stud Safeties in the NFL and worth 5 Million bucks this season UOTE]

All those stats are for losers. The only way to evaluate safeties is to watch the tape and it is evident for me to know when people don't watch film when they think McCourty isn't a top tier safety or elite. In ways he is better then Earl Thomas he has better closing speed, better positioning and gives up fewer big plays. He was only targeted 18 times on the season (played must snaps in secondary), it tough to be a ball hawk when you have no chances to be one. I do not think you realize how rare this is. QBs are afraid to target him. Doug Kyed, Greg Bedard, Greg Cosell and Matt Bowen are all huge McCourty fans and they all watch film. Its tough to take anyone serously when there evaluating safteys and they don't watch film as you can't see what coverages are being used or what a safety is doing. Its also worth noting that Devin McCourty is a Defensive Captain.

 

[All22PatsFan]

Spot on Mack.

Mcourty plays deep center field so that he cant get his butt burned. More often that not, he is late or out of the play so you rarely hear his name mentioned. Hes fantastic at flying under the radar.

NFL offensive coordinators are not lying awake at night worried on how they will ever get by Devin "Elite" McCourty.

I guess Ed Reed has sucked all this time.

 

[Deus Irae]

All those stats are for losers. The only way to evaluate safeties is to watch the tape and it is evident for me to know is when people think McCourty isn't a top tier safety or elite. In ways he is better then Earl Thomas he has better closing speed, better positioning and gives up fewer big plays. He was only targeted 18 times on the season (played must snaps in secondary), it tough to be a ball hawk when you have no chances to be one. I do not think you realize how rare this is. QBs are afraid to target him. Doug Kyed, Greg Bedard, Greg Cosell and Matt Bowen are all huge McCourty fans and they all watch film. Its tough to take anyone serously when there evaluating safteys and they don't watch film as you can't see what coverages are being used or what a safety is doing. Its also worth noting that Devin McCourty is a Defensive Captain.

Shockingly, people knew Rodney Harrison was an excellent safety even witout "the tape" :scared2: . Shockingly, people knew Patrick Chung was a terrible safety even without "the tape". Shockingly, people knew Tavon Wilson was a terrible safety even without "the tape". Shockingly, having "the tape" still doesn't tell you what a player's responsibilities were on any given play.


Hmm.... looking back, maybe it's just wrong to think that you need "the tape" to evaluate the safeties. :confused2:

 

[All22PatsFan]

Shockingly, people knew Rodney Harrison was an excellent safety even witout "the tape" :scared2: . Shockingly, people knew Patrick Chung was a terrible safety even without "the tape". Shockingly, people knew Tavon Wilson was a terrible safety even without "the tape". Shockingly, having "the tape" still doesn't tell you what a player's responsibilities were on any given play.


Hmm.... looking back, maybe it's just wrong to think that you need "the tape" to evaluate the safeties. :confused2:

I guess GMs have been doing it wrong this whole time...


BTW If you know the play which should be easy to figure out if you see all 22 players, you should be able to figure out the players responsibilty.

 

[Deus Irae]

I guess GMs have been doing it wrong this whole time...


BTW If you know the play which should be easy to figure out if you see all 22 players, you should be able to figure out the players responsibilty.

You confuse the idea of looking at sufficient film/live plays with looking at one type of incomplete data known as the "all-22". I don't know if that's because you're trolling, ingnorant or shilling for the NFL. However, despite your near-constant claims to the contrary, you can, in fact, evaluate every single NFL position without having access to the all-22 tape.

 

[All22PatsFan]

You confuse the idea of looking at sufficient film/live plays with looking at one type of incomplete data known as the "all-22". I don't know if that's because you're trolling, ingnorant or shilling for the NFL. However, despite your near-constant claims to the contrary, you can, in fact, evaluate every single NFL position without having access to the all-22 tape.

If your looking at a TV copy of a game it is possible to evaluate every position, it is near impossible though. You can evaluate line play easily. You can't see all the players on the field, a TV copy of a game does not show Safties or WRs and CBs. How can you see what is going on away from the play or simply down the field? All-22 is basic it shows you all 22 players.

 

[Deus Irae]

If your looking at a TV copy of a game it is possible to evaluate every position....

End of story, so stop making that asinine claim about evaluating safeties.

 

[manxman2601]

You confuse the idea of looking at sufficient film/live plays with looking at one type of incomplete data known as the "all-22". I don't know if that's because you're trolling, ingnorant or shilling for the NFL. However, despite your near-constant claims to the contrary, you can, in fact, evaluate every single NFL position without having access to the all-22 tape.

It really isn't. How is it possible to evaluate a player that isn't on the screen? As someone who watches a lot of college tape, I yearn for all 22 tape because evaluating cornerbacks and safeties is very difficult. They are probably on screen for less than 25% of the time.

 

[Deus Irae]

It really isn't. How is it possible to evaluate a player that isn't on the screen? As someone who watches a lot of college tape, I yearn for all 22 tape because evaluating cornerbacks and safeties is very difficult. They are probably on screen for less than 25% of the time.

It really is, as even that poster has now admitted. I look forward to hearing how we don't really know that Ronnie Lott was a top quality safety, since we never saw him with the all-22, though.

 

[ashley]

QUOTE=Triumph;3752970]Well, that explains why Mcourty is "Elite". There is no way that he is one of the Stud Safeties in the NFL and worth 5 Million bucks this season UOTE]

All those stats are for losers. The only way to evaluate safeties is to watch the tape and it is evident for me to know when people don't watch film when they think McCourty isn't a top tier safety or elite. In ways he is better then Earl Thomas he has better closing speed, better positioning and gives up fewer big plays. He was only targeted 18 times on the season (played must snaps in secondary), it tough to be a ball hawk when you have no chances to be one. I do not think you realize how rare this is. QBs are afraid to target him. Doug Kyed, Greg Bedard, Greg Cosell and Matt Bowen are all huge McCourty fans and they all watch film. Its tough to take anyone serously when there evaluating safteys and they don't watch film as you can't see what coverages are being used or what a safety is doing. Its also worth noting that Devin McCourty is a Defensive Captain.

I respect your opinion but comparing McCourty to Earl Thomas isn't fair, Thomas is the far superior player. If you were to poll all the GM''s in the league, all of them are all taking Thomas over McCourty.

I'm not here to bash McCourty, I think we can definitely win with him, we have a bigger issue at the other safety position.

 

[JackBauer]

Well, that explains why Mcourty is "Elite". There is no way that he is one of the Stud Safeties in the NFL and worth 5 Million bucks this season.

I gotta say, watching you continue to flail away on this topic despite having been proven wrong again and again is one of my greatest joys here on PatsFans.com.

 

[manxman2601]

It really is, as even that poster has now admitted. I look forward to hearing how we don't really know that Ronnie Lott was a top quality safety, since we never saw him with the all-22, though.

Because you've been repeatedly told so (probably by people who watch all-22 tape) and because he made splash plays. If all-22 tape was so unnecessary, why do scouts, coaches and pundits all rely on it?

If you are trying to tell me that you can accurately judge how well a player plays when he on screen for less than half the time, then I'd love to know your trick because I could really use it.

 

[ATippett56]

Adrian Wilson is a 34 year old strong safety recovering from a torn Achilles Tendon. Adrian Wilson should have been cut at the conclusion of the Super Bowl.

Steve Gregory just plain sucks and is only worth the veteran minimum salary. Personally, I would have cut his overpaid arse at the conclusion of the Super Bowl, as well.

Now, back to your regular scheduled rants.

 

[Deus Irae]

Because you've been repeatedly told so (probably by people who watch all-22 tape) and because he made splash plays. If all-22 tape was so unnecessary, why do scouts, coaches and pundits all rely on it?

If you are trying to tell me that you can accurately judge how well a player plays when he on screen for less than half the time, then I'd love to know your trick because I could really use it.

You're confusing capability with improved ability.

If people really could walk to work, or take the bus, or ride a horse, why do they drive cars?


Also, please. I was repeatedly told that Chung could play. I was repeatedly told that Tavon Wilson was good and improving (had a good first year, etc...), and I was repeatedly told that Adrian Wilson was still good in coverage. Of all people on this board for you to use the "you were repeatedly told so" line on, you chose me? Seriously?

 

[manxman2601]

You're confusing capability with improved ability.

If people really could walk to work, or take the bus, or ride a horse, why do they drive cars?

So are you saying that you are capable of analysing McCourty without all-22 but that your (or mine for that matter) analysis could use some improvement? I'll buy that.

To use a different metaphor, judging McCourty by watching TV coverage alone is like going into a dealer, seeing a car, liking it and buying it. The all-22 is the reviews you do in research and the test drive. One makes a much more improved decision.

Also, please. I was repeatedly told that Chung could play. I was repeatedly told that Tavon Wilson was good and improving (had a good first year, etc...), and I was repeatedly told that Adrian Wilson was still good in coverage. Of all people on this board for you to use the "you were repeatedly told so" line on, you chose me? Seriously?

"you" was meant as "all of us".

Can you get a cursory impression of a backfield defender without all-22? Of course. But how would "you" or "all of us" know how well McCourty is picking up his responsibility without actually seeing him? How can you tell a WR is running his route if he's not on screen? Yes there are replays but they're usually only used on important plays so at best they are an indication of lowlights and highlights and not a reliable tool for evaluation.

 

[supafly]

Steve Gregory just plain sucks and is only worth the veteran minimum salary. Personally, I would have cut his overpaid arse at the conclusion of the Super Bowl, as well.

I think that Gregory is still quite a capable rotational safety, if they can hash out "fair and reasonable" compensation on an extension. Otherwise, I would expect him to be highly considered to be an outright cut.

I do not believe that he's still a good enough starter, especially for that kind of money. My main concern would be a repeat performance of seeing Belichick jump the gun without capable enough replacements, although there's probably no way that anyone can justify keeping him at his current price.

Obviously, it'd be a great sign to see Harmon develop, but I also still think that we need to target the position once again in the draft/free agency.

 

[supafly]

Because you've been repeatedly told so (probably by people who watch all-22 tape) and because he made splash plays. If all-22 tape was so unnecessary, why do scouts, coaches and pundits all rely on it?

If you are trying to tell me that you can accurately judge how well a player plays when he on screen for less than half the time, then I'd love to know your trick because I could really use it.

For me, it's the issue that some are claiming that you cannot make any type of accurate assessment without having the all-22 tape, which is not true. We can still get a pretty good read on many different aspects of a player without it. As you've said, it's definitely better to have it than not to have it, as it shows the entire picture.

I'm not sure that I've seen anyone come right out and claim that it's not a valuable tool to use which can obviously be quite helpful, only that some of the assessments and opinions being made from specifically citing the all-22 are not correct either.

EDIT: I think you covered some of this thinking in your last response.

 

[ATippett56]

I think that Gregory is still quite a capable rotational safety, if they can hash out "fair and reasonable" compensation on an extension. Otherwise, I would expect him to be highly considered to be an outright cut.

Extension? What a joke! I would not invest another single dollar on Steve Gregory. Time to move on.

 

[supafly]

Extension? What a joke! I would not invest another single dollar on Steve Gregory. Time to move on.

How else would you get the larger cap hit down if you wanted to keep him as a rotational Safety #3 for another year or so, while the other younger players developed?

We need improvement at the starting position, but there aren't many NFL teams who have a 3rd safety who is that much better than Steve Gregory. Many don't even have a 3rd safety who is as good as Gregory when you think about it.

Many still believe that he's a capable enough backup who can start in a pinch, and he does still have some good traits, despite his obvious weaknesses as a starter.