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The Rule Regarding James's Erstwhile Catch


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Asking for your support
 

Did the Steelers get jobbed?? Is the NFL conspiring to prop up the Patriots Dynasty??


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This is it 100%. You can tell from all of the cries of "it broke the plane!" We're so used to cases where the runner or receiver already has possession and is trying to get into the end zone that we've come to think of "breaking the plane" as the definition of a TD. But it's really breaking the plane with possession.

Yes, that's exactly where I was wrong, at first!!

Plus, I have trouble keeping up with the rule changes, even years afterwards. :oops:

I was thinking "Hah!! That's a FootBall Move!!" :confused:
 
I like the rule. Especially at the goal line.

It's too easy for a receiving player to recklessly reach and break over the line for a TD. There has to be some risk to this common move.

Just because the players ignore the risk most of the time does not mean there should be none.

This will most probably go under in this thread but on the newest Ringer GM Street podcast Lombardi says that BB has prohibited players in NE to stretch out around the goal line to avoid the risk of incompletions or touchbacks. He literally said that if you do that you will be benched.

And there it is.

Once again, Mike Tomlin is playing Checkers and Mad Bill is playing Chess. :cool:
 
Am I the only one who doesn't find the rules about makes a catch confusing at all?

Close calls will always get a lot of scrutiny because they're close. But it's really not hard to understand. And the rule with the catch last night...if it's ruled a catch, where do you draw the line about the ball moving?

In summary, the rules are fine, it wasn't a catch and the Steelers suck.

I'm not saying anything that we don't already know, but the only reason there's outrage about this rule being enforced correctly is because it benefited the Patriots.

All the fans or media calling it the worst call in history and clamoring for the rule to be change should do a simple mental exercise: What would their reaction be if the situation was reversed, Gronkowski "caught" that pass and it wasn't overturned? Alternately, what would they be saying if the officials overturned the call and wiped away a Patriots TD?
 
I never thought I would say this but I think the NFL is doing exactly the right thing here. To avoid a stupid inconsistent grey area that would result in the refs and their gut feeling becoming the deciding factor like with PI in this case the rules are extremely strict but at least black and white.

If you are going to the ground you have to maintain possession throughout that process for the catch to be considered complete. And only then you are considered to have possession of the ball. And only then all the other rules that apply to runners are relevant. There is nothing complicated about that and makes it simpler for reviews and decisions to be consistent.

Personally, I (would) rather sacrifice a couple of completions than introduce yet another judgement call into the game. And I would welcome the league to make more rules considerably more strict to clean games of inconsistent calls. Inconsistent application of a rule is what ruins games.

Great Post.
 
The real acid test for this rule is for people (complaining about it now) to imagine what the reaction would be if a Patriot had batted the ball out of his hands at the goal line and recovered the ball. Would you have called it a fumble recovery?

Hah hah!! Great point.
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Anybody else listen to Clay Travis in the mornings? 930 AM? I love the guy, and he's hilarious, but he's also something'f a twerp. And of course ~ no surprise, as I've always got the sense that he doesn't like us very much ~ he's been squealing and whining all morning that the rule is stupid and about what an outrage it is!!
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BTW regardless of the rule, the TD call would be overturned on thos play since the ball was @ the 1 yd line when his knee hit.

Squeelers would still be squeeling since that is who they are.
 
1000 Thanks ~ not five. not seven. One thousand Thanks!! ~ to Sistah Patricia for correcting my egregious misquote of The Great One's work in Option 3!! :D

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Stupid question for you guys regarding his knee being down on this. Wondering if someone can clarify.

I've always thought even of you're not touched the knee being down is a dead ball. Why wasn't he considered down at around the one once his knee was down even before he broke the plane? I'm guessing I'm just thick and you do need to be touched? I'm guessing there is a separate rule for when say a QB takes a knee at the end of a game or a returner takes a knee in the endzone?
 
This is pretty much the argument I've been making... If you change this rule to the point where the play last night was a catch, you're opening up every other possession-based rule to reinterpretation... It would get to the point where possession was effectively rendered meaningless and everything would have to be ruled a catch of the player secures the ball at any time, period.

It would also open up the interpretation of fumble rules for both runners and receivers.
 
Stupid question for you guys regarding his knee being down on this. Wondering if someone can clarify.

I've always thought even of you're not touched the knee being down is a dead ball. Why wasn't he considered down at around the one once his knee was down even before he broke the plane? I'm guessing I'm just thick and you do need to be touched? I'm guessing there is a separate rule for when say a QB takes a knee at the end of a game or a returner takes a knee in the endzone?
He wasn't touched, so he was not down when his knee touched the ground. He can crawl across the goal line.
 
Runners almost always have possesion before they cross the plane. It is pretty cut and dry when you look at it from that view. Just like when a receiver runs it in from 20 yards out and makes a leap. He will get the call as long as he holds possesion and crosses the plane.

It's so easy yet so many take it to the next level.
 
I've always thought even of you're not touched the knee being down is a dead ball. Why wasn't he considered down at around the one once his knee was down even before he broke the plane? I'm guessing I'm just thick and you do need to be touched? I'm guessing there is a separate rule for when say a QB takes a knee at the end of a game or a returner takes a knee in the endzone?

I believe the confusion comes from a difference between NCAA and NFL rules. In college games a knee means down, whereas NFL rules require being down by contact -- with specific exceptions for "giving yourself up" by sliding feet first, or for QBs or returners, dropping to one knee before making any moves.
 
What is max Keller mans problem? Almost all known pats haters agree that is no catch even Shannon sharpe says there is no discussion
 
Stupid question for you guys regarding his knee being down on this. Wondering if someone can clarify.

I've always thought even of you're not touched the knee being down is a dead ball. Why wasn't he considered down at around the one once his knee was down even before he broke the plane? I'm guessing I'm just thick and you do need to be touched? I'm guessing there is a separate rule for when say a QB takes a knee at the end of a game or a returner takes a knee in the endzone?

Very smart question, of course. I'll defer to Brother Boogs on the answer.

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Posted this on another thread but thought it relevant here, with a couple of changes based on previous comments.

Yes, it is similar to the tuck rule game in that it was a controversial call (i.e., game changing) that some people acknowledged followed the written rule but should not have been called anyway (to me, a curious position to have. What is the NFL, or any organized sport, without strict rules and an adherence to them? What is this, the NBA?). The difference, to me, is that the tuck rule was an obscure provision that most people did not know about (at the time I thought the fumble call was going to be overturned as an incomplete pass because TB's arm was moving forward) so it was abnormal and confused people, but the rule for a catch requiring the ball to be controlled to the ground is a pretty normal, commonplace provision that is invoked all the time.

In this instance, the ball clearly rotated when James slammed it on the ground in the end zone - the only thing that could have caused that rotation was the ground, and you can see that he momentarily lost then regained hold of the ball. To me, the only question was if him putting his knee down before twisting around and putting it on the ground somehow interrupted his fall to the ground. It's pretty clear it did not, but was part of the act of him falling, so it wasn't a catch. The fault lies with the receiver, who afterwards was quoted as saying he didn't realize it wasn't a catch. He certainly knew that the ball rolled around a little when he hit the ground with it, so James's fault was 1) not maintaining control of the football all the way to the ground and 2) not knowing the rules specific to his position. He was simply trying too hard and ruined the play by doing so, a not infrequent occurence in the NFL.

Redefining "football move" to allow a receiver to lunge for the end zone or first down is a bad idea. The idea of "football move" is that it conclusively shows that the receiver established control. Lunging for the end zone has nothing to do with whether the ball is in control. In fact, it would basically allow for a more undisciplined standard for a receiver, saying, hey it's ok you didn't have full control of the football, you scored man. Now, if the league wants to increase scoring, offense, etc., fine, but not to clarify whether a ball is caught or not.

Like I said before, acknowledging that a call followed a rule but should not have been called anyway is an untenable position, It is based upon emotion and subjectivity and can't be taken seriously. And to say that the rules committee will change it after the season is ridiculous as well. Change it to what? That a receiver can let a thrown ball roll around on the ground and still call it a catch? Ordinarily, it is a no brainer, the only difference here is that his knee hit ground first and he broke the plain before putting the ball on the ground. Close calls shouldn't be the reason to change or not correctly call rules, and on replay, it appears this wasn't that much of a close call. As the official said, the knee and breaking the plain have nothing to do with him controlling ball to ground. It's just that the Steelers lost a close one in a significant game and a lot of people hate the Patriots. Those aren't good reasons not to follow the rule, either.
 
ray lewis killed a man, why is nobody talking about this in the poll?

That should be a requirement for all poles. I wondered the same thing
 


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