The Josh Gordon Thread: Pats Officially Acquire Gordon for Fifth-Round Pick

[TBR]

Putting all else aside re: Gordon, what's clear from his rehabilitation video is that the guy is smart, analytical, self-aware, and perceptive.

He's operating at a level mentally and psychologically that not everyone is at, and with that, in some cases, comes the issues he's encountered. Oftentimes the most troubled individuals are the most mentally/psychologically insightful.

At any rate, where I'm going with this is: the types of players who fit the mold described above generally do very well in New England, with both the tactics and schematics employed on the field and the overall culture of the program.

I'm relatively optimistic this will go well. Gordon, for all his baggage, is not only a unique physical talent, but I think he's a bit more complex, nuanced, and developed psychologically, mentally, and intellectually than some of us may think.

He definitely comes across a lot smarter than you'd expect for a guy with his reputation.

 

[Coolade2]

I don't need to see the video or read mkayCabot... The guy likes his own way of doing things and is an original thinker. I'm that way and also posted things I do that other people can't relate to. This makes sense to me .

So belichick is smart enough to see the player as an original since belichick is also one of those. As I posted earlier, I think there is excellent chance of really positive outcome but he will be held back and unleashed on Thursday night game oct.4. IMO. ​

 

[SammyBlueCat]

I certainly hope he is ready next week.

 

[Kdo5]

Sweet Jesus we need to get this guy onto the field ASAP. He may not be 2013 JG but I know he can do a helluva lot more than Hogan & co.

 

[supafly]

Putting all else aside re: Gordon, what's clear from his rehabilitation video is that the guy is smart, analytical, self-aware, and perceptive.

He's operating at a level mentally and psychologically that not everyone is at, and with that, in some cases, comes the issues he's encountered. Oftentimes the most troubled individuals are the most mentally/psychologically insightful.

At any rate, where I'm going with this is: the types of players who fit the mold described above generally do very well in New England, with both the tactics and schematics employed on the field and the overall culture of the program.

I'm relatively optimistic this will go well. Gordon, for all his baggage, is not only a unique physical talent, but I think he's a bit more complex, nuanced, and developed psychologically, mentally, and intellectually than some of us may think.

I think you make some great points, but the fact that he’s consistently chosen substances over tens of millions of dollars + all of the perks that come with being a famous athlete make me skeptical.

Turning down that kind of opportunity isn’t the sign of a clear thinking, intelligent individual. Here’s hoping that he’s grown enough to give himself the chance to succeed. Thus far, everything he’s done is completely irrational.

 

[catent]

I think you make some great points, but the fact that he’s consistently chosen substances over tens of millions of dollars + all of the perks that come with being a famous athlete make me skeptical.

Turning down that kind of opportunity isn’t the sign of a clear thinking, intelligent individual. Here’s hoping that he’s grown enough to give himself the chance to succeed. Thus far, everything he’s done is completely irrational.

Without getting too specific, I've battled mild addiction (tied to depression) for the better part of the past 4-1/2 years. Through all of this I've been a successful college student (3.9 GPA), maintained an 18 month relationship, and have moved out of my parents house and am now living by myself. I am, on the surface, extremely functional. But I can tell you I am not fulfilling my potential nor am I particularly happy or content in life.

I consider myself to be intelligent, rational, and a critical thinker, yet I've repeatedly made decisions that are, when closely analyzed, irrational. When I evaluate my actions in hindsight I am able to realize as much, but when I'm in the present moment and feeling quite miserable and depressed, consuming a drug that I know will (or might) make me feel better seems like the correct and rational decision at that point in time.

I'm a firm believer that individuals with true addiction have some underlying mood disorder that causes them to feel discontent. I dabbled with marijuana and alcohol before developing depression and had zero problem saying 'no' and moderating my intake. I felt entirely content and happy without any chemical alterations to my brain. My issues with addiction came after I developed depression, which is a result of some neurological/biochemical issue, as far as I can tell.

Consuming something that you know will improve your subjective wellbeing is, I've realized, actually a very rational decision. That decision, however, can be simultaneously irrational in other regards. There are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Addiction and mental health is such a complex and nuanced issue that modern medicine has yet to make much progress on.

I don't claim to speak for Gordon and I'm entirely understanding of your perspective, but I don't think most people with addiction are capable of internalizing and actualizing your perspective because they are living an entirely different subjective experience than those who would be described as mentally healthy.

After experiencing this entirely new phase of my life over the past 4-1/2 years, I will never fault someone who struggles with mental health or substance abuse, nor will I judge their actions or character as irrational, selfish, or immoral (save for those who put others in harms way).

I've tried to avoid discussing my own situation as it pertains to Gordon because this level of introspection and disclosure can be uncomfortable, but I figured sharing my experience may help others (who are lucky enough to have avoided this type of thing) understand how complex, unique, and truly challenging this stuff is.

 

[supafly]

Without getting too specific, I've battled mild addiction (tied to depression) for the better part of the past 4-1/2 years. Through all of this I've been a successful college student (3.9 GPA), maintained an 18 month relationship, and have moved out of my parents house and am now living by myself. I am, on the surface, extremely functional. But I can tell you I am not fulfilling my potential nor am I particularly happy or content in life.

I consider myself to be intelligent, rational, and a critical thinker, yet I've repeatedly made decisions that are, when closely analyzed, irrational. When I evaluate my actions in hindsight I am able to realize as much, but when I'm in the present moment and feeling quite miserable and depressed, consuming a drug that I know will (or might) make me feel better seems like the correct and rational decision at that point in time.

I'm a firm believer that individuals with true addiction have some underlying mood disorder that causes them to feel discontent. I dabbled with marijuana and alcohol before developing depressing and had zero problem saying 'no' and moderating my intake. I felt entirely content and happy without any chemical alterations to my brain. My issues with addiction came after I developed depression, which is a result of some neurological/biochemical issue, as far as I can tell.

Consuming something that you know will improve your subjective wellbeing is, I've realized, actually a very rational decision. That decision, however, can be simultaneously irrational in other regards. There are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Addiction and mental health is such a complex and nuanced issue that modern medicine has yet to make much progress on.

I don't claim to speak for Gordon and I'm entirely understanding of your perspective, but I don't think most people with addiction are capable of internalizing and actualizing your perspective because they are living an entirely different subjective experience than those who would be described as mentally healthy.

After experiencing this entirely new phase of my life over the past 4-1/2 years, I will never fault someone who struggles with mental health or substance abuse, nor will I judge their actions or character as irrational or selfish, save for those who put others in harms way.

I've tried to avoid discussing my own situation as it pertains to Gordon because this level of introspection and disclosure can be both uncomfortable and a little terrifying, but I figured sharing my experience may help others (who are lucky enough to have avoided this type of thing) understand how complex, unique, and truly challenging this stuff is.

Good for you for continuing to fight back, and congrats on your success with coming to terms with everything, while addressing it to the best of your ability. I fully get where you’re coming from and what you say makes a lot of sense.

I guess I have a harder time accepting Gordon’s situation due to the once in a lifetime opportunity that he has, and oddly enough, his “once in a lifetime” chance has been extended for several years, now. I definitely don’t mean to downplay his struggles with depression or anxiety, but at some point you’d think that he could pull himself together enough to finally hit free agency and have a chance at a real contract. He could practically live off of that kind of money and still be a total basket case in his late 20s, getting as plastered as he wants. The fact that he can’t even put one season together with that much on the line is a bit scary, that’s all, and this perspective is coming from someone who’s been down all of the paths that we’re discussing. Well, all of the paths aside from having that type of opportunity, of course.

 

[MainePatsFan26]

Thus far, everything he’s done is completely irrational.

Irrational describes everything about the 2018 team.

 

[VegasGuy]

I certainly hope he is ready next week.

Me too but I'm afraid it's going to take more than him to fix this receiving core. I'm counting the days till Jules is back.

 

[PP2]

Without getting too specific, I've battled mild addiction (tied to depression) for the better part of the past 4-1/2 years. Through all of this I've been a successful college student (3.9 GPA), maintained an 18 month relationship, and have moved out of my parents house and am now living by myself. I am, on the surface, extremely functional. But I can tell you I am not fulfilling my potential nor am I particularly happy or content in life.

I consider myself to be intelligent, rational, and a critical thinker, yet I've repeatedly made decisions that are, when closely analyzed, irrational. When I evaluate my actions in hindsight I am able to realize as much, but when I'm in the present moment and feeling quite miserable and depressed, consuming a drug that I know will (or might) make me feel better seems like the correct and rational decision at that point in time.

I'm a firm believer that individuals with true addiction have some underlying mood disorder that causes them to feel discontent. I dabbled with marijuana and alcohol before developing depressing and had zero problem saying 'no' and moderating my intake. I felt entirely content and happy without any chemical alterations to my brain. My issues with addiction came after I developed depression, which is a result of some neurological/biochemical issue, as far as I can tell.

Consuming something that you know will improve your subjective wellbeing is, I've realized, actually a very rational decision. That decision, however, can be simultaneously irrational in other regards. There are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Addiction and mental health is such a complex and nuanced issue that modern medicine has yet to make much progress on.

I don't claim to speak for Gordon and I'm entirely understanding of your perspective, but I don't think most people with addiction are capable of internalizing and actualizing your perspective because they are living an entirely different subjective experience than those who would be described as mentally healthy.

After experiencing this entirely new phase of my life over the past 4-1/2 years, I will never fault someone who struggles with mental health or substance abuse, nor will I judge their actions or character as irrational, selfish, or immoral (save for those who put others in harms way).

I've tried to avoid discussing my own situation as it pertains to Gordon because this level of introspection and disclosure can be uncomfortable, but I figured sharing my experience may help others (who are lucky enough to have avoided this type of thing) understand how complex, unique, and truly challenging this stuff is.

That was well-written, thank you for sharing.

 

[PP2]

I think you make some great points, but the fact that he’s consistently chosen substances over tens of millions of dollars + all of the perks that come with being a famous athlete make me skeptical.

Supa,

He didn't "chose" substance abuse. Addiction is a disease, not a choice.

 

[supafly]

Supa,

He didn't "chose" substance abuse. Addiction is a disease, not a choice.

I appreciate your perspective, but I’m not getting into this debate again. There have been plenty of addicts and alcoholics who have gone on to have successful lives once they get their acts together, myself included. While it’s most certainly a disease, there is nothing “intelligent” about throwing away your one shot at making tens of millions of dollars by repeatedly squandering your chances.

Real “intelligence” is going to counseling, going to meetings everyday, taking your prescribed medications for depression/anxiety, and acting like a grown adult.

 

[scott99]

Without getting too specific, I've battled mild addiction (tied to depression) for the better part of the past 4-1/2 years. Through all of this I've been a successful college student (3.9 GPA), maintained an 18 month relationship, and have moved out of my parents house and am now living by myself. I am, on the surface, extremely functional. But I can tell you I am not fulfilling my potential nor am I particularly happy or content in life.

I consider myself to be intelligent, rational, and a critical thinker, yet I've repeatedly made decisions that are, when closely analyzed, irrational. When I evaluate my actions in hindsight I am able to realize as much, but when I'm in the present moment and feeling quite miserable and depressed, consuming a drug that I know will (or might) make me feel better seems like the correct and rational decision at that point in time.

I'm a firm believer that individuals with true addiction have some underlying mood disorder that causes them to feel discontent. I dabbled with marijuana and alcohol before developing depression and had zero problem saying 'no' and moderating my intake. I felt entirely content and happy without any chemical alterations to my brain. My issues with addiction came after I developed depression, which is a result of some neurological/biochemical issue, as far as I can tell.

Consuming something that you know will improve your subjective wellbeing is, I've realized, actually a very rational decision. That decision, however, can be simultaneously irrational in other regards. There are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Addiction and mental health is such a complex and nuanced issue that modern medicine has yet to make much progress on.

I don't claim to speak for Gordon and I'm entirely understanding of your perspective, but I don't think most people with addiction are capable of internalizing and actualizing your perspective because they are living an entirely different subjective experience than those who would be described as mentally healthy.

After experiencing this entirely new phase of my life over the past 4-1/2 years, I will never fault someone who struggles with mental health or substance abuse, nor will I judge their actions or character as irrational, selfish, or immoral (save for those who put others in harms way).

I've tried to avoid discussing my own situation as it pertains to Gordon because this level of introspection and disclosure can be uncomfortable, but I figured sharing my experience may help others (who are lucky enough to have avoided this type of thing) understand how complex, unique, and truly challenging this stuff is.

Very informative and very helpful. I think everyone's addictions are different levels. I know I've been lucky in life, I've been able to end my own addictions, by chosing to stop. Others aren't able to do that. It doesn't make me stronger, smarter or better at it, everyone's situation is different. I've also been lucky have been clean for over 30 years of some of my addictions.

 

[DaBruinz]

I appreciate your perspective, but I’m not getting into this debate again. There have been plenty of addicts and alcoholics who have gone on to have successful lives once they get their acts together, myself included. While it’s most certainly a disease, there is nothing “intelligent” about throwing away your one shot at making tens of millions of dollars by repeatedly squandering your chances.

Real “intelligence” is going to counseling, going to meetings everyday, taking your prescribed medications for depression/anxiety, and acting like a grown adult.

If you understand that addiction is a disease, then how is it you don't understand how it can completely control your life regardless of the "once in a life time chance" you are given? To me, your statements are the illogical ones.

What you mentioned isn't real intelligence and has nothing to do with intelligence at all. And that just hits home how much you don't actually understand about addictions, depression or anxiety.

Counseling, going to meetings, taking your meds? Those require determination, willpower and self control to do them, not intelligence. The lack of self-control because of the disease is what is the hardest to overcome.

 

[supafly]

What you mentioned isn't real intelligence and has nothing to do with intelligence at all. And that just hits home how much you don't actually understand about addictions, depression or anxiety.

You may not agree with my opinion or care for my examples, but I can assure you that you’re quite wrong about your last statement.

And for the record, I responded to another poster who was talking about how intelligent Josh Gordon is, whom I respectfully disagree with. And stop with the “unmanageable disease” idea for those who have previously addressed their drinking or drug problems. You’re making them all look weak and pathetic. There are plenty of people who have taken the advice of counseling, daily meetings, and psychiatric medications and used that to live a successful life.

 

[catent]

I appreciate your perspective, but I’m not getting into this debate again. There have been plenty of addicts and alcoholics who have gone on to have successful lives once they get their acts together, myself included. While it’s most certainly a disease, there is nothing “intelligent” about throwing away your one shot at making tens of millions of dollars by repeatedly squandering your chances.

Real “intelligence” is going to counseling, going to meetings everyday, taking your prescribed medications for depression/anxiety, and acting like a grown adult.

Not to be overly picky or sensitive but I'd suggest referring to those with addiction as "people with addiction", in lieu of calling them addicts. There is, after all, a human behind the disease. Small gripe of mine but I understand you mean no harm.

The problem I have, though, is that you're minimizing the disease and suffering, and seem to be suggesting that individuals should put aside their subjective well-being in order to pursue some tangible goal, like money. That completely ignores what that person is going through and why they're making the decisions they're making. While there may be nothing intelligent (from your perspective) about certain people with addiction making the decisions they do, there's nothing inherently unintelligent either, especially when you really closely examine their rationale.

Consider the following example: you suffer from crippling headaches that interfere with your life on a daily basis. These headaches impact your ability to enjoy leisure activities, to function well at work, and to live what you would consider a relatively comfortable, content life. There is, however, a medication that exists to take away (or, at the very least, reduce) this pain, and thereby improve your quality of life. However, that medication comes with with a slew of side effects, is dependence inducing, and your employer drug tests for said medication. It is true that if you completely quit the medication and engage in some lifestyle changes that your headaches may subside over time, however the amount of time it will take for the pain to subside, and the extent to which it will, is unknown, and in the present moment you're in significant distress.

You're between a rock and a hard place, because you've tried other medicines and this one is the most effective at improving your symptoms and overall well-being, but there are societal and practical barriers in the way of you using it. This obviously creates tension around your choice to use, or not use this medicine, for the slew of reasons mentioned, exacerbating the issue.

I would argue that taking the medication to relieve your pain is an intuitively rational and intelligent decision. There is nothing irrational or unintelligent about the following equation: 'x' exists, and 'x' is bad; 'y' will remedy 'x', at least temporarily, so engage in 'y'. That's the most basic form of logic one can understand. It's when the extraneous variables and circumstances become involved that these situations become complicated. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Again, I cannot speak for Gordon and what his subjective experience is like and what motivates his behaviors. I do admit that I am projecting my experience onto the above example and in order for the above narrative to be salient, one must have an underlying mood disorder and/or clinical addiction, where there is some neurological/biochemical malfunction. That said, I hope that this little thought experiment helps yourself and others understand just how psychologically complicated this stuff is, all the more so for the person actually experiencing it.

 

[supafly]

Not to be overly picky or sensitive but I'd suggest referring to those with addiction as "people with addiction", in lieu of calling them addicts. There is, after all, a human behind the disease. Small gripe of mine but I understand you mean no harm.

The problem I have, though, is that you're minimizing the disease and suffering, and seem to be suggesting that individuals should put aside their subjective well-being in order to pursue some tangible goal, like money. That completely ignores what that person is going through and why they're making the decisions they're making. While there may be nothing intelligent (from your perspective) about certain people with addiction making the decisions they do, there's nothing inherently unintelligent either, especially when you really closely examine their rationale.

Consider the following example: you suffer from crippling headaches that interfere with your life on a daily basis. These headaches impact your ability to enjoy leisure activities, to function well at work, and to live what you would consider a relatively comfortable, content life. There is, however, a medication that exists to take away (or, at the very least, reduce) this pain, and thereby improve your quality of life. However, that medication comes with with a slew of side effects, is dependence inducing, and your employer drug tests for said medication. It is true that if you completely quit the medication and engage in some lifestyle changes that your headaches may subside over time, however the amount of time it will take for the pain to subside, and the extent to which it will, is unknown, and in the present moment you're in significant distress.

You're between a rock and a hard place, because you've tried other medicines and this one is the most effective at improving your symptoms and overall well-being, but there are societal and practical barriers in the way of you using it. This obviously creates tension around your choice to use, or not use this medicine, for the slew of reasons mentioned, exacerbating the issue.

I would argue that taking the medication to relieve your pain is an intuitively rational and intelligent decision. There is nothing irrational or unintelligent about the following equation: 'x' exists, and 'x' is bad; 'y' will remedy 'x', at least temporarily, so engage in 'y'. That's the most basic form of logic one can understand. It's when the extraneous variables and circumstances become involved that these situations become complicated. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are multiple considerations and perspectives to any action.

Again, I cannot speak for Gordon and what his subjective experience is like and what motivates his behaviors. I do admit that I am projecting my experience onto the above example and in order for the above narrative to be salient, one must have an underlying mood disorder and/or clinical addiction, where there is some neurological/biochemical malfunction. That said, I hope that this little thought experiment helps yourself and others understand just how psychologically complicated this stuff is, all the more so for the person actually experiencing it.

I appreciate your thoughtful and well reasoned responses, even if we see it from different viewpoints. I just find it difficult to buy into the idea that Josh Gordon has shown anything to date that anyone could deem as “intelligent,” that’s all.

Again, just about every single thing he has done suggests otherwise, from the people he’s surrounded himself with, to the irrational and insane behavior of continuing to address (yet also ignore) his problems via short term fixes with substances. If he were really smart, he’d choose to live in a sober living facility for the next 18 months until he finally reached the ability to hit free agency. That would increase his odds in dramatic fashion.

 

[catent]

You may not agree with my opinion or care for my examples, but I can assure you that you’re quite wrong about your last statement.

And for the record, I responded to another poster who was talking about how intelligent Josh Gordon is, whom I respectfully disagree with. And stop with the “unmanageable disease” idea for those who have previously addressed their drinking or drug problems. You’re making them all look weak and pathetic. There are plenty of people who have taken the advice of counseling, daily meetings, and psychiatric medications and used that to live a successful life.

Bruinz never used the phrase "unmanageable disease", you put those words in his mouth (unless he edited his post).

It's a disease that can be managed, but certainly not easily relative to other diseases and ailments. Our ability to fix biochemical and neurological wounds in the brain is nowhere near our ability to fix, say, a broken leg or a bacterial infection.

Consider the following: if you broke your leg 1500 years ago, your life was permanently altered. You'd be lucky to survive, and if you did, you'd be permanently crippled. Your quality of life would be drastically reduced and that leg break would completely change how you lived going forward. Medicine at that time didn't have a way to adequately address this issue besides minor, relatively ineffective treatments. Fast-forward to today and a leg break is a blip on the radar. It hurts like hell but we have incredibly effective treatments that are, in essence, cures for the malady that is a broken leg. Save for those who have the most severe and horrible injuries, everyone returns to living life as they did before, and even those with the worst of injuries generally regain the majority of their functioning and quality of life back. Medicine re: mental health simply hasn't reached that point, although I'm optimistic that in the future, be it 20, 50, 100, 300 years, etc., medicine for mental health will eventually reach the equivalent of what exists today for broken bones.

I don't believe Bruinz was/is making anyone who currently is, or has, battled addiction look weak or pathetic. Rather, he's acknowledging the difficulty in overcoming the issue. I agree with him that oftentimes the biggest hurdle is willpower, determination, and self-control; not intelligence nor an ability to intellectually grasp the nature of one's issue(s). I'm of the opinion that he is most certainly not "quite wrong" in that assertion, although each individual and their struggles are, of course, unique.

It's one thing to take advice and intellectually understand what is the best course of action; it's another beast entirely to consistently engage that advice and consistently act in healthy ways, especially when one is in a great deal of subjective distress.

It's also worth mentioning that not all advice, counseling, or support is equal and effective, nor does the same approach work for everyone. To that end, psychotropic medications addressing addiction and depression are incredibly limited and relatively ineffective, and the research indicates as much. Look at some of the meta-analyses for SSRIs if you're curious. Modern medicine re: depression and addiction lags way behind other treatments for common ailments and maladies. I've tried four medications: Remeron, Wellbutrin, Zoloft and Celaxa, none of which have been even 5% effective; in fact, they've all decreased my subjective well-being. I realize I am not representative of everyone and there are many people who have tried a psychotropic medication and have improved, but the research indicates that these drugs are more of a 'shot in the dark' than likely-to-be-effective treatments.

 

[Joker]

"I'd suggest referring to those with addiction as "people with addiction", in lieu of calling them addicts."

you'll outlive me at this point but pardon my stubbornness ...I'll keep calling them addicts...just like I'll keep calling ***holes ***holes, instead of anal cavity openings...

 

[supafly]

Bruinz never used the phrase "unmanageable disease", you put those words in his mouth (unless he edited his post).

I don't believe Bruinz was/is making anyone who currently is, or has, battled addiction look weak or pathetic. Rather, he's acknowledging the difficulty is overcoming the issue.

In acknowledging the difficulty, you must also acknowledge the success of those who have done some pretty simple steps to overcome it, so there’s a middle ground that is not being seen with comments like his. No one is downplaying the struggle of overcoming drinking ailments or drugging ailments. They have been around forever, and some succeed while others fail, but the suggestion that no one has control over anything for the rest of their lives is a peculiar one, at least in my opinion. Nothing that Gordon has done suggests intelligence.

Also, DaBruinz is pretty much doing what he’s known for, which is coming into a respectful debate guns blazing, name calling, and making incorrect assumptions. That’s kind of his thing, so when someone calls him out on it in the future, you’ll know. His last statement is not opinionated. It’s factually incorrect.