The Drake Maye Discussion Thread

[lancerman]

If Mac Jones had sat out his rookie season and been coddled we might still be saying he hasn’t had a chance to prove himself and be stuck with him another year or 2.

No we wouldn't because we would be in the position of discussing his contract extension by this point and have two bad years. Most people who gave up on Jones gave up on him in year 2 anyways, this board and most Pats fans thought they the 2021 QB sweepstakes with the best QB of that draft by the end of year 1. All we learned is that the first year didn't matter and the last two years are what made us give up on him. If we had a 4 win record this year and were in position to draft a QB, it would have happened even if Mac sat out.

 

[lancerman]

They both sat a year…you know that. At that point they aren’t even rookies.

Exactly the three best QB's drafted since 2000 were Brady, Rodgers and Mahomes. All 3 sat a minimum of a year. It worked. We know sitting them worked. Speculating that it would have worked anyways is just guess work. The 4th best drafted since 2000 is Drew Brees who also sat a year.

It's not even like you can't judge a QB while they sit. Trey Lance lost his job sitting on the bench because they knew he wasn't developing. So this idea that teams are stupid and don't know what is going on until they actually see them in a game is just nonsense.

Frankly, idk why fans are so desperate for a quick dopamine fix for a few games this year when everyone knows they are not close to ready for a competitive season instead of wanting to get things right and try to build a longterm 10 year window. Nobody is crying that they sat through a 5-11 season in 2000 and Brady didn't start now. They are ****ing glad they did whatever it took to get Brady right because of what it created longterm.

 

[Gumby]

Because you have to play football to get better at football.

Now, Brady worked his butt off his rookie year physically and mentally.

It is both true that Brady was better in 2001 than he was in 2000 and that he would have been even better at the beginning of 2001 if he had also played in 2000.

I have NO CHOICE but to throw the

ABSOLUTE F-ING BULLSH*T FLAG
on this one.

TB himself said he absolutely wasn’t ready to play the 2000-01 season. He gained 20 lb’s in muscle in the red-shirt season and off-season weight program.
He WAS QB 3 by the way that season and only worked up to #2 by year end. And was still behind the $100 mil man too (on a who gets paid; plays basis).
TB also spent the 2000 season in BB‘s film room studying w him. A starter likely doesn’t have that time to get tutored by HC.

IMO (if Bledsoe didn’t exist); and BB had started him year one; a broken Tom Brady becomes the Montreal Expos catcher in 2003 for 3 season and then sells life insurance in Cali.

 

[Ollie]

My big issue with sitting Maye is the loss of the entertainment value and not getting a quick read on him as a starting QB. First round QB's usually bust and the faster you detect that the faster you can recover. Assessing him quickly is hugely important to preempt an endless rebuild.

With a likely top-3 pick again next year, would hate to not pick a QB if Maye looks like a bust.

I don't think we pick a QB and give up on Maye after one year even if he struggles as i think you give your no3 pick more than one year to prove themselves

 

[Gumby]

I have said from the start that this year is all about next year and years following. I would handle the Maye matter in that light and do whatever is more likely to make him a better player next year. With that in mind, I would consider that putting him behind a lousy OL might just get him beat half to death mentally or physically, neither of which will help him in outgoing years. If he can play with reasonable safety, I do see the benefits of gaining some real-game experience this year, assuming his knowledge and skills develop sufficiently that he is in a position so to benefit, but I doubt that would require anything more than a few games. In short, I would not put him out there to win games, but I would do so to help him learn how to win games. I do not care what the record is this year, though I do like the idea of a very high draft position.

I like this if just like 4Q action in games well in hand (please stop laughing) but definitely not in games 1-4.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I have said from the start that this year is all about next year and years following. I would handle the Maye matter in that light and do whatever is more likely to make him a better player next year. With that in mind, I would consider that putting him behind a lousy OL might just get him beat half to death mentally or physically, neither of which will help him in outgoing years. If he can play with reasonable safety, I do see the benefits of gaining some real-game experience this year, assuming his knowledge and skills develop sufficiently that he is in a position so to benefit, but I doubt that would require anything more than a few games. In short, I would not put him out there to win games, but I would do so to help him learn how to win games. I do not care what the record is this year, though I do like the idea of a very high draft position.

What will make him a better QB next year is to play this year. That’s my opinion.

Modern athletes QB are not Tom Brady anymore. I think waiting for him to know the offense by heart and be able to play perfectly in structure is a waste of time.

Maye is athletic enough and good enough out of structure to be successful while gaining experience and learn to play in structure.

Even Mahomes who is probably the best QB after Brady said he couldn’t read defense until the end of his second year starting.

Josh Allen wouldn’t have become Josh Allen by sitting two years. Manning repeatedly said that his first year playing was instrumental in learning his limitations.

Maye need experience. He needs to make mistakes and learn from it. There will be growing pains. I just prefer them happening the first year. Because makes no mistakes, sitting a year will not make him suddenly perfect in year 2. Growing pain will happen then and his second year will be lost. Even Love who sat 2 years needed more than half a season before starting to perform. And now you are finding yourself having to give a 50m contract based on 2 month of play

 

[KCSVEN]

Exactly the three best QB's drafted since 2000 were Brady, Rodgers and Mahomes. All 3 sat a minimum of a year. It worked. We know sitting them worked. Speculating that it would have worked anyways is just guess work. The 4th best drafted since 2000 is Drew Brees who also sat a year.

This is not a good take. I’ve already posted a link to the detailed analysis that showed top picked quarterbacks have more benefit from playing than not. So history and evidence says Maye should play from day one.
Brady was not drafted at top of round 1 , and if Rodger’s was 10 imstead of 24 he probably does fine playing year 1 and the analysis showed the only reason those type payers sit is because of the player in front of them. If we have Brett Favre we sit Maye for a year.
We also know By Mahomes playing in second year that they probably blew a chance at the Super Bowl by sitting him year 1
Examples of top 10 drafted QB starting the first year and still becoming great QBs are numerous.
There really is no argument here, unless you have a star QB the top qb’s drafted do better by playing right away and the ones that play on bad teams have the most success. That analysis has been done. Nobody has been able to dispute it so not sure how anyone still argues the other side.
Cherry picking data is not proper analysis.
Please run a poll, Would Rodgers and Mahomes be less successful if they played the first year? I guarantee you NFL scouts and execs and this entire board would be close to 100% in favor of them being no worse than they are by playing the first year.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Interesting perspective. Maye failing would be a complete shock. However, all in on the entertainment value of him playing.
Since the data historically concludes you should play him I like to go with what the data says. Pretty simple.
They are not playing him until week 5 however so you can tune in then!
I am very intrigued by Javon Baker and if they could somehow pull off Aiyuk trade I’d start to get really excited. Baker might be a 1, he really might be. I can dream anyways: Baker, Aiyuk, Pop, Polk….

You need a real deep threat to force teams into a Cover 2, like when we had Moss, if you want the field to open up. Thornton is not Moss, but the guy can threaten deep.

 

[Wozzy]

This is not a good take. I’ve already posted a link to the detailed analysis that showed top picked quarterbacks have more benefit from playing than not. So history and evidence says Maye should play from day one.
Brady was not drafted at top of round 1 , and if Rodger’s was 10 imstead of 24 he probably does fine playing year 1 and the analysis showed the only reason those type payers sit is because of the player in front of them. If we have Brett Favre we sit Maye for a year.
We also know By Mahomes playing in second year that they probably blew a chance at the Super Bowl by sitting him year 1
Examples of top 10 drafted QB starting the first year and still becoming great QBs are numerous.
There really is no argument here, unless you have a star QB the top qb’s drafted do better by playing right away and the ones that play on bad teams have the most success. That analysis has been done. Nobody has been able to dispute it so not sure how anyone still argues the other side.
Cherry picking data is not proper analysis.
Please run a poll, Would Rodgers and Mahomes be less successful if they played the first year? I guarantee you NFL scouts and execs and this entire board would be close to 100% in favor of them being no worse than they are by playing the first year.

Sounds good, except these are humans, real people, not data points.

Trey Lance starting his rookie year was a disaster and they were a contending team... if we only focus on Mahomes and pretend like that is the predetermined outcome then yeah, every rookie QB should start.

Rookie QB's usually start on terrible teams with nothing else to lose and with no better option at QB. If you have a better option like Alex Smith in KC, or Brissett in NE, than you start the better option until the kid is too good to deny. His teammates shouldn't have to live through the growing pains and will call BS if a better player is sitting on the bench. The rookie can learn just as well watching and repping in practice.

You wouldn't play an uber talented rookie RB if he didn't know how to pass block, you wouldn't play a super talented DE if he was struggling with contain... you don't play a stupid talented rookie QB if he's still learning how to setup his lineman and snap the ball. This isn't hard... there's a right way to do things and the wrong way.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Every year the goal is to put the best possible team on the field. There is no need to over complicate the problem of the starting QB by worrying about how good the OL is, or attempting to accelerate the development of individual players. Maye should start when he earns it by executing the offense better than Brissett. It is best for him to overcome the adversity and better for the team because it send the message that all players are held to the same standard. Joint practices and preseason games will go a long way towards determining who will be under center game 1.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I dint think Brady or Mahomes needed to be protected from the pressure of everyone watching

What an idiotic response. I realize you are just trying to be snarky, but it’s still as stupid as it gets. Bob had been playing before cameras and large crowds for years, they were being held back so they could learn the offense fully before being sent out to execute it. And learning what you have to do before having to do it is always beneficial. Since you clearly aren’t interested in a serious discussion of what is going on I will end it there.

 

[Ring 6]

I have NO CHOICE but to throw the

ABSOLUTE F-ING BULLSH*T FLAG
on this one.

TB himself said he absolutely wasn’t ready to play the 2000-01 season. He gained 20 lb’s in muscle in the red-shirt season and off-season weight program.
He WAS QB 3 by the way that season and only worked up to #2 by year end. And was still behind the $100 mil man too (on a who gets paid; plays basis).
TB also spent the 2000 season in BB‘s film room studying w him. A starter likely doesn’t have that time to get tutored by HC.

IMO (if Bledsoe didn’t exist); and BB had started him year one; a broken Tom Brady becomes the Montreal Expos catcher in 2003 for 3 season and then sells life insurance in Cali.

If he played in 2000 that would not have prevented him from doing any of the things he did while not playing. And he wasn’t tutored by BB in 2000.

Now we are revising history to say the GOAT would have quit if it was hard.

 

[Ring 6]

There's literally nothing to base this on. We've seen plenty of QB's go out way before they were ready in mediocre offenses and the pressure because of the amount of time they had and options the WR's gave them ended up ingraining their bad mechanics to a point where they become uncorrectable and then they get snakebitten.

Aaron Rodgers literally had all of his QB mechanics reworked in his first few years, something that absolutely would never happen if he started year 1. By the time he started, it was very obvious he was a different player than the guy we saw in college. Patrick Mahomes has credited his entire development to the year he sat and worked with Kafka. If Brady started in 2000, he wouldn't have had time to work on fine tuning his mechanics and the team still would have lost and the fans would very likely blame the new 6th round QB and demand they draft a real starter.

Hell even when it works out, you have problems. Peyton Manning started on a **** team on day 1. He ended up becoming a HOF'er. Guess what, year one he lead the league in INT's. Developed a bunch of bad habits. And even in his peak always had an INT problem compared to his peers and it usually hampered his team in the playoffs.

At some point, yes you do need in game experience. But you also need to hit a certain level of competency that can be completely undermined by going out before you are ready. The NFL is not colllege, the speed makes it an entirely different animal. It's very easy for a QB to get pressured by that right away and lean back on bad mechanics. Especially on a team this going to have problems on offense due to skill talent anyways.

There is literally no evidence that failed QBs would have done better if they just sat around for a while. The players are who they are. Playing or sitting doesn’t change who they are, it just changes their development speed.

Rodgers could have done everything he did while sitting if he also played, and accelerated his development. Good players improve by learning under fire. By making mistakes and learning from them.

 

[KCSVEN]

Sounds good, except these are humans, real people, not data points.

Trey Lance starting his rookie year was a disaster and they were a contending team... if we only focus on Mahomes and pretend like that is the predetermined outcome then yeah, every rookie QB should start.

Rookie QB's usually start on terrible teams with nothing else to lose and with no better option at QB. If you have a better option like Alex Smith in KC, or Brissett in NE, than you start the better option until the kid is too good to deny. His teammates shouldn't have to live through the growing pains and will call BS if a better player is sitting on the bench. The rookie can learn just as well watching and repping in practice.

You wouldn't play an uber talented rookie RB if he didn't know how to pass block, you wouldn't play a super talented DE if he was struggling with contain... you don't play a stupid talented rookie QB if he's still learning how to setup his lineman and snap the ball. This isn't hard... there's a right way to do things and the wrong way.

completely missed the point, I just don’t have the energy tho….

 

[Ring 6]

What an idiotic response. I realize you are just trying to be snarky, but it’s still as stupid as it gets. Bob had been playing before cameras and large crowds for years, they were being held back so they could learn the offense fully before being sent out to execute it. And learning what you have to do before having to do it is always beneficial. Since you clearly aren’t interested in a serious discussion of what is going on I will end it there.

It was a response to our snarky response. The poster suggested you should sit a qb because the pressure of playing with everyone watching would harm them
I said if that’s case you have the wrong guy

You said: like Brady or Mahomes.
So you literally used Brady and Mahomes as guys who couldn’t handle pressure.

I don’t think you are following the point.

I agree that a player is better after learning. But I think it’s indisputable that you learn better by playing. Brady shouldn’t have played as a rookie. He probably wouldn’t have played well, and the team had a 100 million dollar qb in front of him.
But if he had played in 2000 he would have been further along than he was be sure in addition to everything he learned he would have gained experience on the field.

 

[Ring 6]

Every year the goal is to put the best possible team on the field. There is no need to over complicate the problem of the starting QB by worrying about how good the OL is, or attempting to accelerate the development of individual players. Maye should start when he earns it by executing the offense better than Brissett. It is best for him to overcome the adversity and better for the team because it send the message that all players are held to the same standard. Joint practices and preseason games will go a long way towards determining who will be under center game 1.

Well it’s clearly not our goal this year since we left over 40 mill on the table.
Given the state of this team I think there are factors that are unique
1) we aren’t wining this year
2) we are playing for the future
3) we have invested than future in Maye
4) what’s best for Maye next year is what’s best for the team this year
The most important goal of the 2024 Patriots is developing Maye and you learn more under direction you do watching.


It’s a shame we are in this position and if we had been willing to spend the cap money maybe a few wins that experience could get you instead of a rookie would matter but the patriots chose to not do everything they could to compete this year.

 

[n1997y]

…But I think it’s indisputable that you learn better by playing.

it’s not indisputable. In fact I’ll dispute it.

It’s known that people learn best by breaking whatever they’re learning down into building blocks and mastering them one part at a time, building more complex skills and knowledge by putting together simpler pieces. You can’t do that in a game, because it all comes at you at once. You can learn how to put it together better in a game ONCE YOU HAVE THE BASICS. But if you don’t have the basic mechanics or footwork or ability to read the defense you’ll just be overwhelmed in a game and you’ll revert to bad habits.

 

[Ring 6]

it’s not indisputable. In fact I’ll dispute it.

It’s known that people learn best by breaking whatever they’re learning down into building blocks and mastering them one part at a time, building more complex skills and knowledge by putting together simpler pieces. You can’t do that in a game, because it all comes at you at once. You can learn how to put it together better in a game ONCE YOU HAVE THE BASICS. But if you don’t have the basic mechanics or footwork or ability to read the defense you’ll just be overwhelmed in a game and you’ll revert to bad habits.

You simply cannot learn in a classroom what you learn live by doing.
If you are the starting qb there is greater focus on your developmental needs. The OC and QB coach can’t ignore the starter to work with the backup. And if you misread the coverage and throw a pick you learn what not to do a hell of a lot better than if someone shows you film and says if you threw there it would have been an int. And of course having success live on the field can’t be replaced in a classroom.
Most people cite adjusting to the speed of the game as the biggest challenge. You don’t do that in a classroom.
Probably the biggest learning experience a QB goes through is the decision making. As you go through progressions you have to determine what “open” means. What window can you fit it into and what is too tight. What is the coverage being shown and pre snap and post snap and his does that change your progression and decision making. How should you respond to pressure, what’s a real threat, what isn’t, etc. None of this is learned in the classroom. If Maye drops back and experiences that 500 times this year instead of zero he will be a better player in September of 2025.

 

[Wozzy]

Some fans here want the student sky diver packing their chutes for them, want the apprentice carpenter building the house they’ve invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in, they want the rookie pilot flying the plane they’re riding in….

Why? Because they’re impatient fans and not football experts.

And if Maye went out in a game and had multiple false starts, missed passes because his receiver ran a different route and bumbled a couple snaps… the same armchair experts would blame the coaches for his failure.

#FanTakes

 

[sb1]