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The cost if we traded up to 11 for Fields

2021 Patriots Season:
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Sep 12th

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40yrpatsfan

PatsFans.com Supporter
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You can't understand why the giants would want more from the Pats than a swap of draft picks and a second?

Because they already had a better offer on the table from the bears? I'm sorry but it's not a difficult concept to understand.
With the Bears offer, the Giants would've dropped to 20 instead of 15. Also their 1st is for 2022. If the Pats had offered their 2021 2nd (46), I think the Giants would have viewed that as a better offer and taken it.
 

Ollie

Practice Squad Player
I disagree with this. We said a long time and right up to the draft that there were clearly 15 top graded prospects so whatever the Patriots did they would land a bonafide stud. At the #20 spot, the guy taken was rated as good as a guy taken at #40 by many teams. The difference between 15 and 20 was huge in this draft. The Giants got Kadarius Toney. Many had him as a 2nd rounder. If they traded to the 15 spot, and with Fields and Mac Jones (assuming a trade up from Chicago) taken, the Giants could have chosen a Micah Parsons or Rashawn Slater or Verah-Tucker.

Look at the guys taken directly after Mac Jones: Zaven Collins, Alex Leatherwood, Kadarius Toney, Jaelen Phillips, Jamin Davis. The grades on these 5 were all over the board. They were nothing like the consensus guys that went top 15. In fact, this draft was notable since it was always the same 15 guys at the top and they all went top 15. The only exception here is Caleb Farley who has injury issues and maybe Christian Darrisaw. You can make a case for those 2 being top 15.

I don't know why we'd have to offer more than the Bears did. Why would the Giants need more to drop fewer spots. Makes no sense.
The giants would surely take the offer that has more value overall. They got two firsts and 2 4ths for their first from the bears. Our offer would have had top be in that ballpark obviously. They moved up nine, we were moving up 4. Who knows what the value of next years would have been but we had to beat that value. Also given how deep WR was this year maybe they werent concerned about moving that far back.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
The giants would surely take the offer that has more value overall. They got two firsts and 2 4ths for their first from the bears. Our offer would have had top be in that ballpark obviously. They moved up nine, we were moving up 4. Who knows what the value of next years would have been but we had to beat that value. Also given how deep WR was this year maybe they werent concerned about moving that far back.
I'll say it again. The post I responded to said we'd have to beat the Bears offer. That makes no sense since we were in the sweet spot for the top 15. And if we matched the Bears offer, why would the Giants prefer to go 5 spots lower?
 

Hyped

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This is as good of a spot as any to drop this thought off:

We were extremely fortunate that Mac Jones fell into our laps...I was hoping for Fields myself and wanted us to trade down when Mac Jones was the best QB remaining. Then we saw Trask/Mills/Monds all go early in the 3rd (or late 2nd as well?)....there was no way we could have traded back in that range....BB was not going to burn #46 on those QB's...and we would have been sweating it out...maybe we would have to give up 2,3,4,4 for a combination of a late 2nd/early 3rd.....

Mac Jones and Barmore....fantastic...two of the most pro-ready guys in this draft, IMO.
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
The original post I responded to said we needed to beat the Bears offer.

Unless the Giants prefer low draft picks to choosing earlier, that makes no sense.
So you think on top of the pick swap one second offered by us tops three other picks, including a first rounder?

* Scratches head *
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
With the Bears offer, the Giants would've dropped to 20 instead of 15. Also their 1st is for 2022. If the Pats had offered their 2021 2nd (46), I think the Giants would have viewed that as a better offer and taken it.
I get that... The difference between 15 and 20 isn't as significant it is being made out to be.
 

Bill Lee

What, me worry?
We were very lucky indeed. Anyone could have traded with MIN for Jones and we wouldn't have our QB. And yes, all the studs were gone.
Mike Lombardi said two teams told him New Orleans was looking to get the MIN pick, but the NYJ had more to offer than NO did, so MIN took the NYJ offer.

Seems da Jete's lust for an OL helped us get the QB we really needed, lol!
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
So you think on top of the pick swap one second offered by us tops three other picks, including a first rounder?

* Scratches head *
I'll say it for the 5,000th time since it just doesn't get into anyone's hard head but the post I responded to said the Patriots would have to beat the Bears offer.

And I said why would the Giants require that when the Patriots draft higher? It would be colossally stupid for the Giants to insist on more. Don't they prefer to pick at 15 rather than 20? Why would the Patriots have to BEAT the Bears offer?

We can argue all day about equivalents here--the latter round picks are all fodder, heck the Patriots just traded two away to move up 8 spots in the 2nd round. Who cares? But the real question is a 2nd rounder this year versus a 1st next year. For many teams trading a pick that will grab you a player a year from now diminishes the value of the pick. It absolutely makes sense. You get one year's less use of the player.

But look what happens when you dropped to 20 from 15. You gave up a chance at Parsons, Verah-Tucker and Slater. Bonafide first rounders. Instead, you ended up with Kadarius Toney, a player that half the league had as a 2nd rounder. So congratulations, in your bid to secure a first rounder next year, you ended up with a guy many thought was a 2nd rounder this year. In other words, if that's what the Giants were thinking, they blew it, because there were absolutely no doubts about players like Parsons and Slater.
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
I'll say it for the 5,000th time since it just doesn't get into anyone's hard head but the post I responded to said the Patriots would have to beat the Bears offer.

And I said why would the Giants require that when the Patriots draft higher? It would be colossally stupid for the Giants to insist on more. Don't they prefer to pick at 15 rather than 20? Why would the Patriots have to BEAT the Bears offer?

We can argue all day about equivalents here--the latter round picks are all fodder, heck the Patriots just traded two away to move up 8 spots in the 2nd round. Who cares? But the real question is a 2nd rounder this year versus a 1st next year. For many teams trading a pick that will grab you a player a year from now diminishes the value of the pick. It absolutely makes sense. You get one year's less use of the player.

But look what happens when you dropped to 20 from 15. You gave up a chance at Parsons, Verah-Tucker and Slater. Bonafide first rounders. Instead, you ended up with Kadarius Toney, a player that half the league had as a 2nd rounder. So congratulations, in your bid to secure a first rounder next year, you ended up with a guy many thought was a 2nd rounder this year. In other words, if that's what the Giants were thinking, they blew it, because there were absolutely no doubts about players like Parsons and Slater.
The difference between 15 and 20 isn't that great. We have a fundamental disagreement on that gap. And now the giants have a deuce to drop in round 1 next year... Nice problem to have.
 

PatsFaninME

Practice Squad Player
I haven't seen much written or posted about this. Philly traded up to 10 and drafted Smith. Then when the Giants got on the clock at 11, Chicago quickly jumped in to get Fields. It happened so fast it looked like we had no chance to talk with the Giants. But even if we had, it would've cost a 2nd rounder to move up those 4 spots, at least.

If we'd parted with that 2nd, there would have been no Christian Barmore. So if you're playing the what-if game with Fields, it's really comparing Fields to the tandem of Jones and Barmour, so I'm very happy we sat tight.
I don't think even a 2nd round pick would have done it. The Giants got a 1st next year and 2 later picks and likely still got the player they wanted by moving down. Why would they take a 2021 2nd pick from Pats. I think it would have taken a heck of a lot more than 46. Belichick made a brilliant and gutsy move to stay put and grab Jones.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
The difference between 15 and 20 isn't that great. We have a fundamental disagreement on that gap. And now the giants have a deuce to drop in round 1 next year... Nice problem to have.
I can't see how you can make this argument when I can find a dozen projections of Kadarius Toney going in the 2nd round. Can you do the same for Slater, Parsons or Vera-Tucker? The 15th pick is the end of the line for consensus 1st runders. After that, Zaven Collins, Leatherwood, Toney, Davis (some had him as a 3rd rounder), Phillips, were all over the map.

15 was a clear cut off.

But here's my question again: why would the Patriots have to BEAT the Bears offer? Seems you're arguing the Giants preferred 20 to 15.
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
I can't see how you can make this argument when I can find a dozen projections of Kadarius Toney going in the 2nd round. Can you do the same for Slater, Parsons or Vera-Tucker? The 15th pick is the end of the line for consensus 1st runders. After that, Zaven Collins, Leatherwood, Toney, Davis (some had him as a 3rd rounder), Phillips, were all over the map.

15 was a clear cut off.

But here's my question again: why would the Patriots have to BEAT the Bears offer? Seems you're arguing the Giants preferred 20 to 15.
Because I looked at what other teams paid to move up. Every other team that moved up paid multiple picks to move up.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
Because I looked at what other teams paid to move up. Every other team that moved up paid multiple picks to move up.
I think we better just end the discussion. a couple of 4th and 5th round picks ain't making or breaking any deal for a top QB. They are essentially meaningless here. I'm not even sure if you answered my question as to why the Giants preferred the 20th instead of the 15th. Let's end it. This is madness and mindless.
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
I think we better just end the discussion. a couple of 4th and 5th round picks ain't making or breaking any deal for a top QB. They are essentially meaningless here. I'm not even sure if you answered my question as to why the Giants preferred the 20th instead of the 15th. Let's end it. This is madness and mindless.
Its the off season...
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
They did not like Fields
If Fields fell to 15 I believe we would have still chose Mac
I wonder about this. After all, given the article about the Patriots saying "We're good" to everyone, it would have been interesting to see them both there at 15. The Patriots were like, we're not trading up when we don't rate the players highly enough. The other variable is what would happen if Fields were the last of the 5 on the board? I tend to think they would have taken Fields as well at 15. They just didn't rank these two highly enough to trade for them.
 

40yrpatsfan

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I wonder about this. After all, given the article about the Patriots saying "We're good" to everyone, it would have been interesting to see them both there at 15. The Patriots were like, we're not trading up when we don't rate the players highly enough. The other variable is what would happen if Fields were the last of the 5 on the board? I tend to think they would have taken Fields as well at 15. They just didn't rank these two highly enough to trade for them.
We don't know how the Patriots felt, but what's not to like about Fields? I'm sure if he were the one to fall to 15, we'd have taken him. If they both fell, we may have even preferred & taken Fields. It appears the Pats had them both rated about the same, and that's why they let cost be the determining factor.
 

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