The Case for Kelley Washington

[Rob0729]

Blam. One link with more to follow

I have a bad sense of humor? I suppose watching guys like Joe Horn, Javon Walker, Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmandzadeh celebrate constantly is in good taste but when Moss does it one time its utter horror. I think your sense of humor is more out of whack than mine.

Dont care about the water bottle incident. Its not a big deal.

3 incidents is not many. Also he is considered a class act in the locker room who gets along with everyone.

I provided that link myself. It was after the fact. The team first Moss throws Mike Tice under the bus and you are using it to show how great of a teammate he is. I said provide a link where he said he didn't like the Randy Ratio BEFORE it turned into a disaster.

What does those other guys' celebrations have to do with Moss'. Do you really don't understand why simulating mooning is in poor taste when there are children watching the game compared to some of the other stuff the other guys did? I never said it was utter horror. I said it was tasteless. Maybe I just understand that most parents don't want their young children exposed to a football player simulating mooning someone.

The waterbottle incident could have been a disasterous deal. What if the Vikes chances to have gotten into the playoffs were riding on that game and Moss getting ejected cost them the game. Any time a player does something that warrants being ejected is a big deal.

I have given you many other cases of Moss being a problem. Ask Todd Steussie what he thinks of Moss. Ask Daunte Culpepper what he thinks of Moss. Moss isn't as much of a lockerroom cancer as some make him, but he definitely didn't get along with all of his teammates.

 

[mgcolby]

The Pats burned the defense in 2003 by releasing Milloy a week before the start of the season, but after one week of shock they pulled it together and performed like the best defense in Patriots history. You PLAY with the hands you are dealt.

This will be the last thing I respond to because this statement is outright BS and it is obvious your dislike for Moss is hazing reality for you. Stallworth is better than Moss? Keyshawn is better than Moss?

Washington tampered with Milloy and told him how much they would offer him. The Pats were asking a declining Milloy to take a pay cut for cap reasons. Milloy burned the Pats and if you blame that on the Pats you have a warped way of looking at things.

 

[Rob0729]

This will be the last thing I respond to because this statement is outright BS and it is obvious your dislike for Moss is hazing reality for you. Stallworth is better than Moss? Keyshawn is better than Moss?

Washington tampered with Milloy and told him how much they would offer him. The Pats were asking a declining Milloy to take a pay cut for cap reasons. Milloy burned the Pats and if you blame that on the Pats you have a warped way of looking at things.

Last time I checked, it ain't 2003. Moss is an average #1 WR at this point. No hazing reality for me. It is the people who think he is still an elite WR are the ones who are clouding reality. Show me proof that Moss is better than Keyshawn or Stallworth TODAY, not four years ago. Stallworth had Aaron Brooks too two of the last three years. Keyshawn had Bledsoe.

People look at Moss and see the 2003 version of Moss who was just in bad situations and there is not one shread of evidence that he is that receiver anymore. As Bill Parcells says - "You are what you are" and Moss has been a pretty average WR.

You are finally getting my point. Moss quit on his team because of circumstances and many were out of the team's control. The Vikings had no control over Robert Smith retiring at the prime of his career. But yet the Vikings are to blame for Moss becoming a malcontent. The Raiders used a lot of high draft picks on o-linemen who ended up being busts even one in Gallery who was universally considered a can't miss player. How is that the Raiders' fault that Gallery turned so much into a bust when most of the teams in the same situation as the Raiders would have drafted Gallery?

As for the Milloy thing, the Pats' hands were pretty tied, but let's not give them a free pass. The Pats were in that situation because they were very active in free agency and they didn't approach this issue until very late in the offseason. It could have been handled better, but Milloy was clearly at fault. But my point was the players felt the team let them down, the reality of the situation is moot. Most of the players felt betrayed by the Pats, but they got over it and played their hearts out for the rest of the season.

 

[BradyManny]

Moss gave up a contract that he was never going to get. The Raiders weren't going to pay it and no one else was either.

I really think somebody would have been willing to pay more than $3-5 mill a year for a guy who can potentially dominate his position unlike anyone else in the league.

 

[BradyManny]

Last time I checked, it ain't 2003. Moss is an average #1 WR at this point. No hazing reality for me. It is the people who think he is still an elite WR are the ones who are clouding reality. Show me proof that Moss is better than Keyshawn or Stallworth TODAY, not four years ago. Stallworth had Aaron Brooks too two of the last three years. Keyshawn had Bledsoe.

When the rumors we were trading for Moss mid-season came out, I made the same argument you are making now, that Moss is no longer his former self.

You know what convinced me I was wrong? That Bill Belichick disagreed with me. If me and Bill Belichick are in disagreement, who do you think is right? If you and Bill Belichick are in disagreement, who do you think is right?

I don't know what you do for a living, but I know I haven't led the Patriots to 3 Super Bowls, so I'm going to take BB's word over my own on issues such as this.

If BB thinks Moss is still the game changing, dominate, unstoppable beast he used to be, I'd place my bets that there's a good chance Moss can still be that guy who can destroy a defense.

 

[Rob0729]

When the rumors we were trading for Moss mid-season came out, I made the same argument you are making now, that Moss is no longer his former self.

You know what convinced me I was wrong? That Bill Belichick disagreed with me. If me and Bill Belichick are in disagreement, who do you think is right? If you and Bill Belichick are in disagreement, who do you think is right?

I don't know what you do for a living, but I know I haven't led the Patriots to 3 Super Bowls, so I'm going to take BB's word over my own on issues such as this.

If BB thinks Moss is still the game changing, dominate, unstoppable beast he used to be, I'd place my bets that there's a good chance Moss can still be that guy who can destroy a defense.

Who said that Belichick is convinced that Moss is his former self. Many of the signs point to Belichick being very unsure whether Moss is still what he was.

First, Adam Schefter, who is more plugged in on this story than anyone, said the Pats weren't interested in trading for Moss until they saw how much he was will to give up to get out of Oakland. He also said that the Pats had an attitude that it was great if they got him, but great if they didn't.

Second, if Belichick was convinced Moss was a great talent, he would have given him a deal like Stallworth, not a one year deal. I don't know how you can translate him trading a fourth round pick and only giving Moss an one year deal as a strong ringing endorsement that Moss is still an elite WR.

Belichick made this deal because it was a low risk move. I agree with him him. He figures if Randy is not the player he was or he cops an attitude, they can just cut ties with him after the season or sooner. Belichick isn't going to say this publically, but is pretty clear that Belichick is not confident that Moss is the player he once was. He is just playing a low risk gamble and I think he is doing the right thing.

Besides, although Belichick is one of the best talent evaluators out there, he is not perfect especially when it comes to WRs. Some of his dumbest personal moves have been at WR including Donald Hayes (the player they absolutely had to have in the 2002 offseason) and Bethel Johnson (Used a second round pick because he was the fastest man in his draft). He has also found Branch and Givens, but his success rate at WR talent evaluation has been mixed.

I don't like Moss and I think he isn't the player he once was, but I agree with Belichick's decision to make the move. It is a low risk gamble. It doesn't mean I buy that he will fall in love with New England and take less to stay here after the season or that I believe his motives for taking the deal he did was just because he wanted to win. I think he is using this year to springboard it to a big contract next year.

 

[sebman2112]

It is basically an option that will all be accrued in 2008 instead of the life of the deal. The Pats don't have to pay it if he isn't on the roster. Stallworth has an injury history and is in the drug program. The Pats are not going to give him $11 million in bonuses unless he is a superstar this season because he is too much of a risk.

Technically it's $10M in bonuses, with his 2008 total take being $11M when you include his salary.

I know it's he actually gets paid the full sum of those bonuses in '08. I was just pointing out that you could look at it as a delayed signing bonus, that NE could pay if they decide to keep him. It's like they signed him to a 6 year 33M deal with a 10M signing bonus, but they get a one year evaluation period before deciding to pay him the full contract. My point about it being spread out over the contract was in terms of the cap effects the bonus has, not when he gets paid.

Stallworth has an injury history, but as I've pointed out to other people in the past he's actually missed one less game than Branch. Stallworth also has more yards, TD's, and a better avg than Branch, in the same career length.

That is funny to me since if they decide to pick up the option they'll be keeping him for money simular to what Branch turned down.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I provided that link myself. It was after the fact. The team first Moss throws Mike Tice under the bus and you are using it to show how great of a teammate he is. I said provide a link where he said he didn't like the Randy Ratio BEFORE it turned into a disaster.

What does those other guys' celebrations have to do with Moss'. Do you really don't understand why simulating mooning is in poor taste when there are children watching the game compared to some of the other stuff the other guys did? I never said it was utter horror. I said it was tasteless. Maybe I just understand that most parents don't want their young children exposed to a football player simulating mooning someone.

The waterbottle incident could have been a disasterous deal. What if the Vikes chances to have gotten into the playoffs were riding on that game and Moss getting ejected cost them the game. Any time a player does something that warrants being ejected is a big deal.

I have given you many other cases of Moss being a problem. Ask Todd Steussie what he thinks of Moss. Ask Daunte Culpepper what he thinks of Moss. Moss isn't as much of a lockerroom cancer as some make him, but he definitely didn't get along with all of his teammates.

You didnt provide jack squat and most of the articles are out of date so they dont show up anymore but there were literally tons of them. I know it and the fans of Minnesota know it.

Wow are you serious? Moss did one friggen dance. ONE! Yet its tasteless. Yet you applaud things like Chad Johnsons river dance and CPR and Joe Horn's cell phone calls and Steve Smiths random celebrations involving everything but humping. Those arent tasteless those are funny. But Moss is a tasteless human being because the Children. CAN SOME ONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Kids watch cartoons and see Spongebob and other shows and let me tell you spongebob has mooned people before and so has Patrick the starfish. Dont give me the kids argument because kids chuckle and still know its wrong to do but its funny. If the kids go and moon people then its the LAZY PARENTS fault for not disciplining there child.

Do you even know the game it was in when he squirted the ref? It was the divisional round of the playoffs against the Rams. Moss had already had 9 receptions for 188 yards and 2 Touchdowns going into the 4th qtr and they still got blown away by the Rams 49-37. Moss did everything he could in that game and still lost. Yea i really give two ****s about a guy who squirted an official with water after he did everything in his possible will to win that game.

Why would i ask either of those guys neither of them hated Moss.

 

[denverpatsfan]

I will bet anyone on this board that Washington does not even make the team. Or if he does he will be hurt within the first 2 games and be unable to play much. Let's put an under/over on the games that he plays.

Loser makes a donation to charity??

 

[Rob0729]

Technically it's $10M in bonuses, with his 2008 total take being $11M when you include his salary.

I know it's he actually gets paid the full sum of those bonuses in '08. I was just pointing out that you could look at it as a delayed signing bonus, that NE could pay if they decide to keep him. It's like they signed him to a 6 year 33M deal with a 10M signing bonus, but they get a one year evaluation period before deciding to pay him the full contract. My point about it being spread out over the contract was in terms of the cap effects the bonus has, not when he gets paid.

Stallworth has an injury history, but as I've pointed out to other people in the past he's actually missed one less game than Branch. Stallworth also has more yards, TD's, and a better avg than Branch, in the same career length.

That is funny to me since if they decide to pick up the option they'll be keeping him for money simular to what Branch turned down.

The Pats didn't offer Branch $10 or $11 million in bonuses. The Pats offered Branch a $4 million signing bonus and a $4 million option bonus the following year. Stallworth is getting $10 million in bonus' in the 2008 season and a $2 option bonus in 2009. So Branch would have gotten $8 million in bonuses over two years and Stallworth would have gotten $12-13 million. That is a bg difference.

Also, Branch isn't in the drug program.

 

[spacecrime]

If you and Bill Belichick are in disagreement, who do you think is right?

Me. Maybe you don't realize it, but I watch NFL LIVE every afternoon, plus I am an ESPN Insider. I'm online a lot. I'll bet BB doesn't even read Mortenson, Clayton, Prisco, Banks, etc. etc. etc.

Not only that, but I bought three draft magazines at Stop & Shop. THREE!

I think I know a bit more about the NFL than BB, thank you very much.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

I provided that link myself. It was after the fact. The team first Moss throws Mike Tice under the bus and you are using it to show how great of a teammate he is. I said provide a link where he said he didn't like the Randy Ratio BEFORE it turned into a disaster.

What does those other guys' celebrations have to do with Moss'. Do you really don't understand why simulating mooning is in poor taste when there are children watching the game compared to some of the other stuff the other guys did? I never said it was utter horror. I said it was tasteless. Maybe I just understand that most parents don't want their young children exposed to a football player simulating mooning someone.

The waterbottle incident could have been a disasterous deal. What if the Vikes chances to have gotten into the playoffs were riding on that game and Moss getting ejected cost them the game. Any time a player does something that warrants being ejected is a big deal.

I have given you many other cases of Moss being a problem. Ask Todd Steussie what he thinks of Moss. Ask Daunte Culpepper what he thinks of Moss. Moss isn't as much of a lockerroom cancer as some make him, but he definitely didn't get along with all of his teammates.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that he was a problem at times, but to say he through Tice under the bus is just laughable. Tice had zero control of the players on that team and did nothing but use the media to scold them. He was a huge joke in IMHO. I believe with the right coaches and system, Moss can mature into a player.

Shell was complete disaster the first time he was a head coach. To blame anyone but himself for the failure is unjustified. The guy just sucks as a head coach, again someone who had no ablility to deal with his players.

There are some players that need more guidance to mature and develop in to an adult player than others. I think Moss is/was an immature person who needs guidance. Can this happen in N.E.? Hopefully. Some teams have a great system for assisting players, others like the Vikes and Raiders don't.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think anyone is arguing against that he was a problem at times, but to say he through Tice under the bus is just laughable. Tice had zero control of the players on that team and did nothing but use the media to scold them. He was a huge joke in IMHO. I believe with the right coaches and system, Moss can mature into a player.

Shell was complete disaster the first time he was a head coach. To blame anyone but himself for the failure is unjustified. The guy just sucks as a head coach, again someone who had no ablility to deal with his players.

There are some players that need more guidance to mature and develop in to an adult player than others. I think Moss is/was an immature person who needs guidance. Can this happen in N.E.? Hopefully. Some teams have a great system for assisting players, others like the Vikes and Raiders don't.

He did throw Tice under the bus. When Moss comes out and says after the Randy Ratio was a huge disaster that he never wanted it, he is throwing his coach under the bus. It doesn't matter if Tice is a joke or not. It is still throwing the guy under the bus because Moss clearly made it sound Tice did this against Moss' objections which is probably not the case. Moss may or may not have asked for it, but I really doubt he said he didn't want to get the ball 40% of the time when it was presented to him.

Tice and Shell may not have been good coaches, but Moss did play a contributing factor to both their demises. His contribution may or may not have been minimal, but he did play a factor. I am concerned that Moss has done things that have undermined his coach.

I hope to God that Moss does work out here. I hated when he got Corey Dillon and still do not like him, but I was pleased that we got one great year out of him. If we can get a great year out of Moss, I will be happy. I will still probably hate him. As I said, this is a low risk move.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

He did throw Tice under the bus. When Moss comes out and says after the Randy Ratio was a huge disaster that he never wanted it, he is throwing his coach under the bus. It doesn't matter if Tice is a joke or not. It is still throwing the guy under the bus because Moss clearly made it sound Tice did this against Moss' objections which is probably not the case. Moss may or may not have asked for it, but I really doubt he said he didn't want to get the ball 40% of the time when it was presented to him.

Tice and Shell may not have been good coaches, but Moss did play a contributing factor to both their demises. His contribution may or may not have been minimal, but he did play a factor. I am concerned that Moss has done things that have undermined his coach.

I hope to God that Moss does work out here. I hated when he got Corey Dillon and still do not like him, but I was pleased that we got one great year out of him. If we can get a great year out of Moss, I will be happy. I will still probably hate him. As I said, this is a low risk move.

Well we obviously disagree about the Tice and Shell ordeals, which makes for a good discussion :rocker:

I feel if the coaches had done their job in controlling the payers and the environment, the players would not have acted out as Moss had. I concede that Moss had a part in their demise, but in my view it was because of their own inability to control the players and the environment. IMHO

Doesn't make my view of the situation any more right than yours I guess. It his however the way I see it.

I think we can agree though that we are hoping he works out in N.E.

 

[Rob0729]

Well we obviously disagree about the Tice and Shell ordeals, which makes for a good discussion :rocker:

I feel if the coaches had done their job in controlling the payers and the environment, the players would not have acted out as Moss had. I concede that Moss had a part in their demise, but in my view it was because of their own inability to control the players and the environment. IMHO

Doesn't make my view of the situation any more right than yours I guess. It his however the way I see it.

I think we can agree though that we are hoping he works out in N.E.

Believe me. I am not taking the blame away from Tice or Shell. They played the biggest role in their own demises. There were a lot of players who played for those two who just sucked it up and did they best they could with the situation and never said a peep. So to excuse Moss because of the coaches who ran the team is really not all that much of an excuse.

I do agree that opposing views make these boards interesting. It is kinda weird though, I am usually the guy who defends Belichick and Pioli's moves passionately. It is strange to be on the other side of the arguement for once.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm astounded by some of the analysis on this thread.

Moss and Stallworth leaving for more money after one year?......Don't be so sure...If Pats win SB or come close,why would you trade another season with
Tom Brady for another million or two with a mediocre team and QB?

If you get one ring,wouldn't you want a chance at two or three?........along with a ticket to the HOF?

Kelly Washington couldn't supplant Chris Henry?
He was injured and the Bengals,unlike the Patriots,
have a pecking order with their WR's,based on salary and reputation.

What is Washington's excuse for his 2nd and 3rd years when he wasn't injured? Also, I believe that Washington actually missed his rookie season because of a car accident.

IMO,Washington will be a red-zone stud for us.
If he stays healthy,he's also the most motivated of all the FA WR's.

I don't. In fact, I don't expect him on the field in those situations when you have Randy Moss, Dante Stallworth, David Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Ben Watson, Kevin Faulk and Laurence Maroney on the team.

Brown and Jackson will BOTH be PUP.
Troy is coming off an injury and the Pup list is the perfect place to slot him until the WR situation shakes out.
This is obvious to me,,,can;t you see this?

No I don't see Brown on the PUP because I don't see the Pats signing him before he's ready to play. Why tie up the salary cap money?

Caldwell is in trouble here,both because of his performance in the AFCCG and his lack of versatility.

You claim a lack of versatility and I say BS. Caldwell HAS returned kicks and done a pretty good job. Not for the Patriots, but he did return kicks for the Chargers. And, since Maroney and Hobbs are scheduled starters right now, they aren't your 1st choice for kick return duties.

Gaffney is shorter money,better hands,and more versatile because he can play the slot.

Caldwell can play the slot, also, and did so in San Diego. However, Gaffney really hasn't done kick returns or punt returns in the pros, so that is a strike against HIS versatility.

As for their hands, Gaffney has 7 drops over the last 4 years on 229 targets while Caldwell has 4 drops on 208 targets over the last 4 years.

Both Caldwell and Gaffney had drops in the play-offs, but people only focus on the 2 drops that Caldwell had in the AFCCG, though only 1 MIGHT have cost the Patriots a TD.

After training camp and the EX games,TB will be more than familiar with the potential of the "speed" WR's(Moss and Stallworth).
His familiarity with Caldwell and Gaffney last year
is irrelevant and overblown.

Its irrelevant and overblown? Like hell it is. This is a clear sign of someone who has never actually caught passes as a WR. Any WR will tell you that each quarterback throws the ball differently and that the touch on the ball is different. So you have to learn that. You also have to learn how the QB wants the routes run. There was a big article last year about how Brady took Caldwell aside to show him how he (Brady) was expecting the routes to be run. In an article more recently, Wes Welker basically said that he was planning on sitting down with Brady to do the exact same thing that Brady did with Caldwell last year. Welker said that was a key ingredient to a receiver being successful.

So, how can that knowledge be over-blow and irrelevant?

This offense will be dominate......without any one
piece having to be dominating.

It's going to be fun to watch.

On these parts I believe we can all agree.

 

[DaBruinz]

Not kidding anyone. Speaking the truth. Moss has done little in the last three years to justify a big contract, he has a bad reputation, and he has been injury prone the last few years. TO was at least a stud WR when the Cowboys took him on and they only risked $5 million more than the Pats did in the first year and everyone agreed that the Cowboys would get one good year out of him at the time.

Its kind of hard for Moss to do anything with a garbage O-line attempting to block for horrible QBs. The Raiders have gone through 8 different quarterbacks over the past 4 years. There is only one organization that I know of that has gone through more QBs over a 4 year period than the Raiders have. And that was the Bears from 2002-2005 who went through 12 different ones.

So, tell me how Moss is supposed to be successful when he has 4 different QBs throwing to him over the past 2 seasons. The 4 were Kerry Collins, Marques Tuiososopo, Andrew Walters, and Aaron Brooks.

When you take that into consideration, your claim of speaking the truth loses some validity.

If you don't think Moss going on the radio saying he wasn't going to try because no one else is didn't help sink Shell, you are kidding yourself. I never said he was the only reason, but if you don't think Moss played a factor you are crazy.

He did burn two teams. I didn't say he destroyed or ruin them, but he did act out with two teams and quit on them both. Who ever said he ruined the teams. He was a contributing factor to Shell getting fired. He was a distraction in Minnesotta.

Those two teams burned Moss just as much as he burned them. One of the problems with those two teams is they rely on STAR POWER. Meaning that they expect a STAR PLAYER to be able to carry them. As a Pats fan, you should know damn well that it takes a TEAM of GOOD PLAYERS to win, not just a single STAR.

Art Shell was set up to fail, in all honesty. I won't say that Moss wasn't a factor, but I think you attribute too much to Moss and not enough to poor management of the Raiders. Heck, I think that Jerry Porter was just as big of a factor for getting Shell fired. But I don't see you mentioning any other factors.

I am not ignoring everything else, but you are ignoring that superstars are supposed to be leaders. Brady was pissed when Belichick traded away Branch. He could have just packed it in like Moss and said that if the Pats aren't going to give him WRs he isn't going to put himself on the line. Brady decided to take the offense on his back and work harder to get the WRs he had up to speed even if he wasn't happy with them. That is what superstars do.

You didn't see Warren Sapp and the Raiders defense pack it in. Sapp had his best year in years last year. He had his most sacks since 2000. That is what stars do.

Its kind of hard to be a star WR when you don't have a QB who can get you the ball and you don't have an O-line who can protect your QB. Mentioning Warren Sapp's accomplishments means nothing, in all honesty. Different side of the ball.

And Keyshawn is better than Moss is at this point and you can't prove otherwise. The numbers show it. Moss could rebound, but he may not. But you can't prove Moss is better than Keyshawn at this point. Keyshawn has put up better numbers the last three years as a number 2 WR and he had Bledsoe throwing to him for two of them. So don't even pull the QB card. Moss had

Keyshawn isn't better than Moss. And yes, I believe the numbers do prove otherwise. And its quite easy. Just look at the number of sacks the Panther QBs took. Combined, Delhomme and Weinke took 32 sacks. Walter and Brooks took 72. That is 2.5 times as many sacks. And that is with the Panthers (Delhomme and Weinke) passing 519 times compared to the Raiders (Walter and Brooks) only throwing 468 times.

Delhomme and Weinke completed 60.3% of their passes. While Walter and Brooks only completed 54.5% of thier passes.

The only number that shows Keyshawn to be better is the drops. Moss had 8. Keyshawn had 2. But, when you look at the quality of the QB throwing the ball and the quality of the O-lines protecting the QB, I can see where Moss would have more drops.

 

[Rob0729]

Its kind of hard for Moss to do anything with a garbage O-line attempting to block for horrible QBs. The Raiders have gone through 8 different quarterbacks over the past 4 years. There is only one organization that I know of that has gone through more QBs over a 4 year period than the Raiders have. And that was the Bears from 2002-2005 who went through 12 different ones.

So, tell me how Moss is supposed to be successful when he has 4 different QBs throwing to him over the past 2 seasons. The 4 were Kerry Collins, Marques Tuiososopo, Andrew Walters, and Aaron Brooks.

When you take that into consideration, your claim of speaking the truth loses some validity.

I have already spoken plenty of time about the problems of last season, but Kerry Collins started all 16 games in 2005 and got 3,756 yards, 20 TDs, and 12 INTs. He didn't have Pro Bowl quality year, but it was respectable. I don't care how many QBs the Raiders went through in the last four years because Moss wasn't on the team in two of them and three of the four QBs he had throwing to him were in one season.

Those two teams burned Moss just as much as he burned them. One of the problems with those two teams is they rely on STAR POWER. Meaning that they expect a STAR PLAYER to be able to carry them. As a Pats fan, you should know damn well that it takes a TEAM of GOOD PLAYERS to win, not just a single STAR.

You can't be serious with this one. Plenty of teams make really bad strategic decisions that seriously hurt the team. Just because the Vikes and Raiders mismanaged their teams doesn't mean they burnt Moss. They didn't go out and say selfish things that hurt Moss directly or indirectly or quit on Moss. There is a big difference.

Art Shell was set up to fail, in all honesty. I won't say that Moss wasn't a factor, but I think you attribute too much to Moss and not enough to poor management of the Raiders. Heck, I think that Jerry Porter was just as big of a factor for getting Shell fired. But I don't see you mentioning any other factors.

Shell was doomed to fail. I agree with that. It doesn't mean that Moss speaking out about how the team quit on him didn't play a roll in Shell getting canned in one year.

What does Shell have to do with him telling Lance Kiffin off and hanging up on him when Kiffin called to introduce himself to him. There are a long laundry list of Moss disrespecting authority.

Its kind of hard to be a star WR when you don't have a QB who can get you the ball and you don't have an O-line who can protect your QB. Mentioning Warren Sapp's accomplishments means nothing, in all honesty. Different side of the ball.

I never said Moss had to be a star. I used Sapp as an example because Sapp stepped up his game because the offense was so bad eventhough it was obvious that players like Moss had quit on the team. I have never used last year to talk about Moss other than his publically quitting on his team.

Keyshawn isn't better than Moss. And yes, I believe the numbers do prove otherwise. And its quite easy. Just look at the number of sacks the Panther QBs took. Combined, Delhomme and Weinke took 32 sacks. Walter and Brooks took 72. That is 2.5 times as many sacks. And that is with the Panthers (Delhomme and Weinke) passing 519 times compared to the Raiders (Walter and Brooks) only throwing 468 times.

Delhomme and Weinke completed 60.3% of their passes. While Walter and Brooks only completed 54.5% of thier passes.

The only number that shows Keyshawn to be better is the drops. Moss had 8. Keyshawn had 2. But, when you look at the quality of the QB throwing the ball and the quality of the O-lines protecting the QB, I can see where Moss would have more drops.

Again, I said based on the last three year, not just last year. What was Culpepper's numbers in 2004? What was Collins numbers in 2005? If you just look at this past year, you skew the arguement a lot.

Also, sack numbers can be damning to Moss too. Remember Brady got a lot of sacks and hits early last season because he held onto the ball a lot more because his receivers struggled to get open.

I will conceed Moss is better than Keyshawn, but you will be very hardpressed to prove based over the last three years that Moss is better than Stallworth.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Me. Maybe you don't realize it, but I watch NFL LIVE every afternoon, plus I am an ESPN Insider. I'm online a lot. I'll bet BB doesn't even read Mortenson, Clayton, Prisco, Banks, etc. etc. etc.

Not only that, but I bought three draft magazines at Stop & Shop. THREE!

I think I know a bit more about the NFL than BB, thank you very much.

We are not worthy ...

 

[gomezcat]

Me. Maybe you don't realize it, but I watch NFL LIVE every afternoon, plus I am an ESPN Insider. I'm online a lot. I'll bet BB doesn't even read Mortenson, Clayton, Prisco, Banks, etc. etc. etc.

Not only that, but I bought three draft magazines at Stop & Shop. THREE!

I think I know a bit more about the NFL than BB, thank you very much.

That's not bad. I see you as a rival for the next vacant GM spot.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=55435

I would also suggest that you get up to speed with sophisticated offences and defences by playing Madden.


Anyway, yeah, Kelley Washington...