Still No # 1WR

[captain stone]

Welcome To The Pats N'Keal Harry

The more and more I read up on this kid the more and more I’m loving the pick!!

www.patsfans.com

I'm only a few pages in but most people seem quite happy. Sure some did want Brown but show me a pick where everyone agrees. It wasn't roundly criticised as a pick at all.

It wasn't, but only for the reason that I gave in my previous post.

And it wasn't "some" who wanted AJ Brown; it was many...maybe even the majority...certainly a plurality.

 

[Tony2046]

What did you mean with your “light years” comment, afraid to answer a simple question?

You guys talk yourselves into a pretzel then come back with “I never said that exact phrase” as a counterpoint.

Guess who else never said the phrase “elite QB” in this thread as far as I can remember... me.

I “lied” that’s rich... you think the difference between Brees one championship and Tom’s seven is some unquantifiable trait Tom possesses that Drew didn’t... laughable.

It wasn’t that Tom played on the best team more often than Brees. #fandumb

Yeah, this is some strange garbage you're throwing around here.

Brady is better and so much so he's wearing six more rings than your buddy Brees.

 

[Deus Irae]

Weird how you conveniently forget to mention Collins, Van Noy and Hightower just because it doesn't suit your argument. And whilst i quite like Dugger he wasn't quite at Chungs level yet.

Actually, I didn't mention them for good reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with suiting my argument. Take your time, and then see if you can figure it out. Hint: it's a different reason for each one, two of which you should be able to get pretty easily, and one you'll likely never get since it's not at all football related.

 

[Wozzy]

This is such an oversimplification. Brady was actually not that great in 2019 mainly as he struggled with a very poor supporting cast. many pundits were talking about the fact tha time might have been catching up with him. We went 8-0 against mediocre opposition and flattered to deceive. Most knew we weren't all that good and once we started playing decent sides went 4-4 and got dumped out of the playoffs by the first good side we faced. Brady couldn't alter that no matter how good he was.
in 2020 we lost 8 players to opt outs, had a front 7 made of cheese and virtually no qb. With a half decent qb and an ability to stop the run or put pressure on we could likely get 3-4 more wins.

The final third of 2019 Brady was dealing with two injuries, one to his foot and then to his throwing elbow against the Chiefs. We didn't find out until after the season the true extent of the injuries, but they existed.

www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/brady-suffered-foot-injury-december?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sportsillustrated&xid=socialflow_facebook_si&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR0fxut1FMUzqAB36DxpXNLLccwL0aesUdR54inmRuxR9RxdSxbs9vk4-Mc

This seems to be a convenient lapse in memory for the "weapon's suck" crowd, but look at his stats from the Chiefs game on. I think these injuries combined with inexperienced young WR's who hadn't practiced with him all season was another downfall. He missed practices with that elbow, so he was basically going out and playing with rookie WR's on game day having barely practiced with them at all. Outside of old man Ben Watson the TE play was terrible. Early in the year it was an entirely different WR room, and the two rookies were relegated to the third team with Harry missing most of the year.

As far as last year, a bunch of vets they retained and signed made that team much better than it would have been had they borrowed more cap space to extend Brady. The QB play would have been markedly better if they had, but the remainder of the team would be empty or total newbes. More importantly Brady didn't want to play on that team nor should he, he has a finite amount of gas left in the tank. The team did the right thing by the player in granting him release and they did the right thing for themselves in resetting. It couldn't last forever, and emotional fans need a scapegoat.

 

[203Pat]

How can you go to year-to-year based on CAP when contracts are shuffled all the damned time to create space (which benefits the player, as they get the actual money sooner)? Do you really think Tom F***ing Brady was the 17th highest paid QB in 2012?

They restructured his deal in 2012 to move 7.2 million forward for CAP purposes, while sticking a gazillion dollars in his pocket in 2012. Add that back in and he's 4th, not 17th. It's absurd to go by "Cap rankings" to measure how well someone's paid.

Brady has been among the top-earning QBs since he came off his tiny rookie deal. That money ALWAYS counts against the CAP, though a team has a lot of leverage in which years they'll take the CAP hit.

So yeah, the list you provided was exactly that, which means exactly squat. He made around $250 million in his time with the Pats and every dollar of it counted against the CAP, in uneven bursts based on signing bonuses and restructures.

It's the same "Gilmore won't play for $7 million-type of argument" which ignores that fact that he's only getting $7 million because he already got a lot of the money (8+ million) that he would have been paid this year, except that the signing bonus and restructures gave him the money early in order to lower the CAP hits (until the piper demands to be paid).

All that and you missed the point again. I only care what he counted against the cap year to year. I don’t care if they paid him Monopoly money to get around it. What he counted against the cap each year is all that matters.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The final third of 2019 Brady was dealing with two injuries, one to his foot and then to his throwing elbow against the Chiefs. We didn't find out until after the season the true extent of the injuries, but they existed.

www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/brady-suffered-foot-injury-december?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sportsillustrated&xid=socialflow_facebook_si&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR0fxut1FMUzqAB36DxpXNLLccwL0aesUdR54inmRuxR9RxdSxbs9vk4-Mc

This seems to be a convenient lapse in memory for the "weapon's suck" crowd, but look at his stats from the Chiefs game on. I think these injuries combined with inexperienced young WR's who hadn't practiced with him all season was another downfall. He missed practices with that elbow, so he was basically going out and playing with rookie WR's on game day having barely practiced with them at all. Outside of old man Ben Watson the TE play was terrible. Early in the year it was an entirely different WR room, and the two rookies were relegated to the third team with Harry missing most of the year.

As far as last year, a bunch of vets they retained and signed made that team much better than it would have been had they borrowed more cap space to extend Brady. The QB play would have been markedly better if they had, but the remainder of the team would be empty or total newbes. More importantly Brady didn't want to play on that team nor should he, he has a finite amount of gas left in the tank. The team did the right thing by the player in granting him release and they did the right thing for themselves in resetting. It couldn't last forever, and emotional fans need a scapegoat.

No need to make excuses for the GOAT. Pats were 9-0 and after AB was cut Tom checked out entirely (house on the market 7 months prior) and we played 0.500 ball after and early exit.

.

 

[Wozzy]

Brees is the all time passing leader? Wow.

He's also 13th on the all time intercepted list.

He also played mostly in domes.

Anywho back to Brady. It comes down to decision making. Reading defenses. Brady is light years beyond anyone else let alone Brees.

Sometimes games come down to a few good or bad decisions. Somehow Brady seems to have made enough good ones in the biggest moments umpteen times.

You want to harp about "it's the team" and then harp about Brees???? He's had some freaking loaded teams over the last few years. He won nothing.

You want to harp about coaching??? Brady just won with a coach that some were saying was a joke.

Brady has blown every argument out of the water except the one that says Brady was a major reason for those wins.

Defenses wear out when the offense goes three and out much of the game. They wear out if the offense doesn't hold on to the ball long enough. A rested defense plays at a higher level than one that's on the field after multiple three and outs.

To say Brady doesn't help a defense do it's job is asinine. He often gives them a lead to work with, doesn't often make mistakes and often sustains drives giving them a chance to catch their breath. They might even play a little more aggressively with a lead.

So anyway I completely disagree with your point.

It's not just Brees, it's every great QB who plays in the NFL on a weekly basis. Brees was the nearest closest peer due to age and passing success, I could have said Rogers, big Ben, Watson, Mahomes or any of them.

Mahomes played in year two also and he wasn't a game manager who threw 12 INT's to 18 TD's for under 200 yards passing per game, he was the league MVP. At this point in Mahome's career Tom already had two rings to Patrick's one. Those early 2000 teams were stacked on all three phases, the defenses were dominant and the team was physical.

There are other great QB's out there the way there are other great TE's or CB's out there. Football is complementary but Tom's not making blocks, tackles, not forcing sacks, intercepting the ball or playing special teams. Teams win Super Bowls, good QB play is necessary but not the only reason why. That's just fanspeak and talking head media chatter. QB's are important, so are left tackles and shutdown corners.

 

[Wozzy]

No need to make excuses for the GOAT. Pats were 9-0 and after AB was cut Tom checked out entirely (house on the market 7 months prior) and we played 0.500 ball after and early exit.

It is what it is.

I'm on to 2021.

 

[50-yard-line]

All that and you missed the point again. I only care what he counted against the cap year to year. I don’t care if they paid him Monopoly money to get around it. What he counted against the cap each year is all that matters.

What? Why? That's not how it works at all. It's not monopoly money, it's real cash, given up front and spread out over future years. You can't go by CAP ranking to determine anything - AAV, Guaranteed money...those are things that determine the quality of a contract, not the CAP hit in any particular year.

And your rankings make even less sense when you're talking about where Brady ranked year after year compared to other QBs without attaching real dollars attached to the statistic. QB CAP rankings are more decided about where on a contract a player is than it does the actual salary for the player. Sam Darnold will be an $18 million CAP hit next year if the Panthers let it go as it is, or they could pay him a crapload more money, even per year, and lower his 2021 cap hit with an extension.

They'll pay the piper down the road, however.

 

[Deus Irae]

And your rankings make even less sense when you're talking about where Brady ranked year after year compared to other QBs without attaching real dollars attached to the statistic.

Umm.... just so you know.... percentage of the cap was certainly meaningful to Kraft:

But this is the most important part of Kraft’s comments relative to where we are today.

I was just trying to stay ahead of the curve. If we were going to have to pay him elite-quarterback money and have elite-quarterback cap numbers, I just didn't think we would be able to build a team. We don't want to have a team where we're paying 18 to 20 percent to a player on the cap.
I wanted to do something elegant that would work for everybody. I had been talking to him off and on for maybe 18 months, about how I wanted him to finish his career here, and about how we both have to be smart about it. I just really want him to end his career a Patriot.

Impasse between Tom Brady, Patriots is almost impossible to solve

 

[50-yard-line]

Umm.... just so you know.... percentage of the cap was certainly meaningful to Kraft:




Impasse between Tom Brady, Patriots is almost impossible to solve

Yeah, and? Ranking it against other QBs is meaningless, since it shifts year to year with restructures, signing bonuses, 5th year options, franchise tags, etc.

Restructuring Brady to number 17 in 2012 has nothing to do with pushing 7.2m forward (and paying it to him up front)? That's not really an argument, is it?

Brady played 20 seasons for New England, made less than a million over the first three, then made around 250 million in the last 17. Every penny of that counted against the CAP, including after he left the team!

I'm still not seeing the point of the statistics as presented, particularly when they aren't attached to total dollars earned over that period. The highest paid QBs in 2012 made less than half of what they're seeing now - wouldn't that mean that a promising QB coming off his rookie deal (Jimmy G, for example) would shoot ahead of someone who had signed a contract several years before?

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, and? Ranking it against other QBs is meaningless, since it shifts year to year with restructures, signing bonuses, 5th year options, franchise tags, etc.

Restructuring Brady to number 17 in 2012 has nothing to do with pushing 7.2m forward (and paying it to him up front)? That's not really an argument, is it?

Brady played 20 seasons for New England, made less than a million over the first three, then made around 250 million in the last 17. Every penny of that counted against the CAP, including after he left the team!

I'm still not seeing the point of the statistics as presented, particularly when they aren't attached to total dollars earned over that period. The highest paid QBs in 2012 made less than half of what they're seeing now - wouldn't that mean that a promising QB coming off his rookie deal (Jimmy G, for example) would shoot ahead of someone who had signed a contract several years before?

Making the argument that it's meaningless in one manner, when the owner of the team is making it clear that it's a driving reason behind how the contract is the way it is, sets up an irreconcilable compatibility issue.

 

[crownontherocks]

No julio on there

 

[captain stone]

If Wozzy really is Matt Chatham, this makes me re-think the type of “smart players” Belichick values. Is the bar really that low?

If Woz were really Chatham, he would've been hurling the insults at y'all, because that's what the Tool does to those who didn't play the game and who disagree with him...

 

[Tony2046]

It's not just Brees, it's every great QB who plays in the NFL on a weekly basis. Brees was the nearest closest peer due to age and passing success, I could have said Rogers, big Ben, Watson, Mahomes or any of them.

Mahomes played in year two also and he wasn't a game manager who threw 12 INT's to 18 TD's for under 200 yards passing per game, he was the league MVP. At this point in Mahome's career Tom already had two rings to Patrick's one. Those early 2000 teams were stacked on all three phases, the defenses were dominant and the team was physical.

There are other great QB's out there the way there are other great TE's or CB's out there. Football is complementary but Tom's not making blocks, tackles, not forcing sacks, intercepting the ball or playing special teams. Teams win Super Bowls, good QB play is necessary but not the only reason why. That's just fanspeak and talking head media chatter. QB's are important, so are left tackles and shutdown corners.

Brady has gone head to head with all of those QBs and won.

Complimentary? I preach that. But do so recognizing that Brady is the the best card up the sleeve that any coach could have.

Rodgers?? 1-4 in the championship games. Prima Donna. Choked. Nothing worse than losing an NFC championship game vs Seattle when given every opportunity to win it. Brady wins that game and more.

Big Ben? Brady put in the time to study while Big "cheeseburger" Ben put on the pounds. Brady embarrassed him. Multiple times.

Mahomes? Great example. I like him. I like Andy Reid. But three 3rd and 10's happened.

Brady has faced all of them and has faced most of them with different coaches and different teams. He still wins.

Brady is special. His last Super Bowl win should have ended all arguments yet here you are.

Yes you can win one or two on the backs of a great defense. You can win one by getting hot at exactly the right time during the playoffs. But to win seven takes something extraordinary. Brady is extraordinary.

You're so wrong on this that I can't believe that this is even a discussion.

 

[Ollie]

Actually, I didn't mention them for good reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with suiting my argument. Take your time, and then see if you can figure it out. Hint: it's a different reason for each one, two of which you should be able to get pretty easily, and one you'll likely never get since it's not at all football related.

Your take was 2019 Patriots with Brady compared to 2020 without Brady which completely ignores the fact that the 2020 Pats were also missing Hightower, Collins, Van Noy, Chung, Shelton and Harmon which were not replaced with players of the same calibre. The 2020 Defense was nowhere near the level of 2019. We also had the worst QB in the league. Its reasonable to assume with the above players playing and a half decent QB we pick up more than 7 wins.

Its just common sense.. Better players on defense and a better QB is likely to result in more wins

The fact that you don't want to see this is starting to get a little weird.

 

[50-yard-line]

Making the argument that it's meaningless in one manner, when the owner of the team is making it clear that it's a driving reason behind how the contract is the way it is, sets up an irreconcilable compatibility issue.

But the point seemed to be that it wasn't about contract structures, but rather, some "Tommy took it for the team" nonsense.

Brady was the perfect player for so many years, but this urban myth that the poor guy left 100's of millions of dollar on the table for New England and her fans is silly. When he retires, he will have (rightly) been the highest earning player of his generation.

 

[203Pat]

What? Why? That's not how it works at all. It's not monopoly money, it's real cash, given up front and spread out over future years. You can't go by CAP ranking to determine anything - AAV, Guaranteed money...those are things that determine the quality of a contract, not the CAP hit in any particular year.

And your rankings make even less sense when you're talking about where Brady ranked year after year compared to other QBs without attaching real dollars attached to the statistic. QB CAP rankings are more decided about where on a contract a player is than it does the actual salary for the player. Sam Darnold will be an $18 million CAP hit next year if the Panthers let it go as it is, or they could pay him a crapload more money, even per year, and lower his 2021 cap hit with an extension.

They'll pay the piper down the road, however.

I am not sure what you're not understanding. I only care about what he counted against the cap in each year. That is all that matters. He was here for 20 years so all the can kicking down the road still contributed to his cap number to whatever year the can was kicked outside of 2020 when he left.

 

[Wozzy]

Brady has gone head to head with all of those QBs and won.

Complimentary? I preach that. But do so recognizing that Brady is the the best card up the sleeve that any coach could have.

Rodgers?? 1-4 in the championship games. Prima Donna. Choked. Nothing worse than losing an NFC championship game vs Seattle when given every opportunity to win it. Brady wins that game and more.

Big Ben? Brady put in the time to study while Big "cheeseburger" Ben put on the pounds. Brady embarrassed him. Multiple times.

Mahomes? Great example. I like him. I like Andy Reid. But three 3rd and 10's happened.

Brady has faced all of them and has faced most of them with different coaches and different teams. He still wins.

Brady is special. His last Super Bowl win should have ended all arguments yet here you are.

Yes you can win one or two on the backs of a great defense. You can win one by getting hot at exactly the right time during the playoffs. But to win seven takes something extraordinary. Brady is extraordinary.

You're so wrong on this that I can't believe that this is even a discussion.

You equate one team beating another team to one QB beating another QB and team... Patriot defenses stifled all those QB's above.

Brady is special, he's the best, he did his job... team is the reason he has 7 rings.

 

[Wozzy]

But the point seemed to be that it wasn't about contract structures, but rather, some "Tommy took it for the team" nonsense.

Brady was the perfect player for so many years, but this urban myth that the poor guy left 100's of millions of dollar on the table for New England and her fans is silly. When he retires, he will have (rightly) been the highest earning player of his generation.

It's mostly garbage, he took less from 2014-2018 and should be commended for that, he also played in four Super Bowls and won three so mission accomplished.

In 2010 Tom Brady was the highest paid player in the entire league, it didn't last long as it never does with inflation. And despite being a 6th round pick who earned a pittance on his first contract and taking a little less at the end, Tom was ranked second on the all-time earners list before he signed his Tampa contract. The team always used his contract and those of other big ticket items (Gronk, Gilmore) as slush funds so they could borrow future cap to win. He made a lot, he won a lot... not sure you can ask for more than that.