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State of the AFC – did the Broncos actually improve through free agency?

The OL lost one player (Beadles) of note, and gains back one of the very best LTs in the NFL (Clady). How does that make it "way worse"?

This misconception holds about as much water as last year's complete overreaction and assumption that BAL wouldn't even be able to field a defense due to choosing to move on from some old guys and overrated players.

DEN's OL will be just fine, and the player they lost is being replaced by a vet going back to his old position. If anything, there's a solid case that they will actually be improved based on the return of LT Clady.
 
This misconception holds about as much water as last year's complete overreaction and assumption that BAL wouldn't even be able to field a defense due to choosing to move on from some old guys and overrated players.

DEN's OL will be just fine, and the player they lost is being replaced by a vet going back to his old position. If anything, there's a solid case that they will actually be improved based on the return of LT Clady.

Reading the threads this offseason, I think it's a matter of posters being more delusional than usual. Maybe the Revis signing did it.
 
Reading the threads this offseason, I think it's a matter of posters being more delusional than usual. Maybe the Revis signing did it.

If only these forums had someone ready to pounce on every single utterance of hopeful rhetoric anyone might dare to utter in as caustically a belittling and patronizing way as possible!

Why.. such a man could, if he existed, be rewarded with the self-righteous privilege of getting to feel oh so superior to this mildly delusional minority.

I mean what would happen if every Patriot fan showed favortism towards their home team and bias towards their rivals?!

Why unobjective cheering and celebratory chaos I tell you. Chaos!
 
Legitimate writer or not, it's extremely difficult for me to use that opinion and listing as a credible point of reference.

The list aside the opinion of Talib is formed partially on a biased even a subconscious biased by most on this board. He was a Patriot so like we do with all players we saw the good in him and tried to ignore the bad, we do it with every player and it is not even intentional. When something is yours you hold it in higher regard, that is what happened with Talib so now he is viewed as this top three CB in here, but realistically a season in a half ago he was being run out of Tampa and not even considered a top 30 CB.
 
The list aside the opinion of Talib is formed partially on a biased even a subconscious biased by most on this board. He was a Patriot so like we do with all players we saw the good in him and tried to ignore the bad, we do it with every player and it is not even intentional. When something is yours you hold it in higher regard, that is what happened with Talib so now he is viewed as this top three CB in here, but realistically a season in a half ago he was being run out of Tampa and not even considered a top 30 CB.
The same can be said for a departing player. The strengths become less so and the weaknesses compounded when they leave for a rival.

The Broncos will be fine. The AFC is going to go through the Patriots and the Broncos. Like it should, it will be Manning versus Brady.
 
Reading the threads this offseason, I think it's a matter of posters being more delusional than usual. Maybe the Revis signing did it.

The belief that Moreno’s 1600 yards/13 touchdowns, Decker’s 1300 receiving yards/11 touchdowns, and all the other production lost this offseason by the Broncos will just be replaced is the most delusional thing I have seen in a long time. If 1600 total yard/13 touchdown RBs is so easily replaced, why have the Patriots not had a RB total that since Corey Dillon?
 
The same can be said for a departing player. The strengths become less so and the weaknesses compounded when they leave for a rival.

The Broncos will be fine. The AFC is going to go through the Patriots and the Broncos. Like it should, it will be Manning versus Brady.

Not until they play right now, the image of Talib is that of a CB in a Patriots uniform.

I never said the Broncos would not be fine, my OP said that I did not feel that they improved themselves during free agency as has been widely suggested. They lost production and replaced it with players who are likely to provide similar production, but they lost more than they added.
 
Not until they play right now, the image of Talib is that of a CB in a Patriots uniform.

I never said the Broncos would not be fine, my OP said that I did not feel that they improved themselves during free agency as has been widely suggested. They lost production and replaced it with players who are likely to provide similar production, but they lost more than they added.
In your opinion. What you appear to have overlooked is the Broncos willingness to promote from within the organisation whilst acquiring outside talent. This is something the Patriots do on a regular basis but few have issue with that.
 
Are we presuming that DEN is skipping the draft?

What if we BOTH have a B+ draft?

IMHO, we both would be expected to win a dozen games again and be fighting in the playoffs.

In theory, I still see them going for a 12-4 / 13-3 season, just like us, although our schedule will be tough.

But I understand that if we got a B+ draft, we will have a better and more balanced team.
 
The belief that Moreno’s 1600 yards/13 touchdowns, Decker’s 1300 receiving yards/11 touchdowns, and all the other production lost this offseason by the Broncos will just be replaced is the most delusional thing I have seen in a long time. If 1600 total yard/13 touchdown RBs is so easily replaced, why have the Patriots not had a RB total that since Corey Dillon?

I just don't look at their moves and think "they lost Decker and Moreno, so they must have taken steps backwards." They added DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward, and Aqib Talib to the defense, Sanders on offense, and are getting back their franchise LT in Clady. This is all before the draft even has happened.

My grandma could probably produce in DEN's offense with Manning, Demarius, Julius Thomas, and Welker as the 4 main guys--and that's before Sanders and the replacement of 2nd round pick Ball at RB. Prior to this last season, Moreno was largely considered a bust. He benefited greatly from their high powered passing attack, and one huge game in Foxborough.

At the end of the day, I think they should be right there again as a major obstacle.
 
The same can be said for a departing player. The strengths become less so and the weaknesses compounded when they leave for a rival.

The Broncos will be fine. The AFC is going to go through the Patriots and the Broncos. Like it should, it will be Manning versus Brady.

I honestly think Indy is going to be right up there with us this year. I wouldn't sleep on them.
 
I honestly think Indy is going to be right up there with us this year. I wouldn't sleep on them.

Yup I agree. I also think the Chargers are on the up and up.
 
I just don't look at their moves and think "they lost Decker and Moreno, so they must have taken steps backwards." They added DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward, and Aqib Talib to the defense, Sanders on offense, and are getting back their franchise LT in Clady. This is all before the draft even has happened.

My grandma could probably produce in DEN's offense with Manning, Demarius, Julius Thomas, and Welker as the 4 main guys--and that's before Sanders and the replacement of 2nd round pick Ball at RB. Prior to this last season, Moreno was largely considered a bust. He benefited greatly from their high powered passing attack, and one huge game in Foxborough.

At the end of the day, I think they should be right there again as a major obstacle.
No question that Denver is going to be the main obstacle for the Pats to get to the superbowl this year, BUT......They're not an "unbeatable juggernaut" like they are being portrayed in the media because of all the FA signings that they made.

I think Ball is an issue for them at RB - He fumbles just as much as Ridley, doesn't pass block well OR catch the ball at all, yet there are some here that would rather Ball on the Pats over Ridley. Plus Vareen is head and shoulders above Ronnie Hillman.

Ward will certainly add to the Bronco's run defense and overall physicality, but he's still a liability in coverage, and this is still an era where passing is king. Plus you might not have questions about the Denver OL, but I would be more cautious until we see it its better.

Finally, I think the biggest question for Denver is going to be the continuing deterioration of Peyton Manning, which IMHO is going to be accelerated by the fact defenses are going to catch up with the Denver offense this year. Teams, especially those with decent pass rushers or good secondaries, are going to make it much more difficult for Manning to throw into the areas that he prefers.

Teams are going to take more liberties by flooding the short to mid range zones, while at the same time design rushes to create more immediate pressure. Manning's success is predicated on him getting rid of the ball quickly and to the right person. If you make him double clutch, he loses effectiveness rapidly. Seattle gave the rest of the league a blueprint that not only slowed Manning, it shut him down.

Lets look at what the Pats have done this off season and compare it to what Seattle has built.

Shut down CB - Check
S with super range - Check
2 other DB's with excellent press zone/man coverage skills - Check
Overall depth in the secondary - Check
LB's with coverage and blitz skills - check, but depth is desperately needed
DL who can rush the QB - I think we have 2 parts of that equation, 3 if Kelly comes back healthy. But we do need that "other guy" in the middle plus more depth. It could be Armstead, and Buchanon, a draft pick, or the further maturation of CJones who (btw) DID have 6 sacks.

Maybe it won't end up being as good as the Seattle D, but its obviously being built to specifically combat what is probably the biggest obstacle the Pats are going to face next season. Peyton Manning and the Denver Broncos. But as of this moment in time, its right on track. Lets see what happens in the draft and the rest of FA. Lets see how many of the 6 first year defenders who saw significant snaps make a big 2nd year leap.

BOTTOM LINE - lots of time and evaluations to make before we declare anyone one better or worse than anyone else. Remember this is the time of year where EVERYONE is going to get better
 
Yup I agree. I also think the Chargers are on the up and up.

No way I would expect anything from Rivers and the Chargers. They are the cowboys from afc. I would put my money on the Jets before put it on the Chargers.

If they give a L to the Broncos I appreciate though.

It is what it is, Patriots, Broncos, and just a few steps back the Colts.
 
The belief that Moreno’s 1600 yards/13 touchdowns, Decker’s 1300 receiving yards/11 touchdowns, and all the other production lost this offseason by the Broncos will just be replaced is the most delusional thing I have seen in a long time. If 1600 total yard/13 touchdown RBs is so easily replaced, why have the Patriots not had a RB total that since Corey Dillon?

Yeah, I don't get why people just automatically assume that the Broncos' offense will just click along with the losses and Manning and Welker at ages that they can hit the age wall fast and hard (and both are clearly on the decline physically). There is always a chance that they don't miss a beat, but they could also take a huge step back too.

I still wonder if Emmanuel Sanders will be nearly as successful as people think. Everyone are already penciling him as a receiver with north of 1,000 yards, but he couldn't come close to that last year when the Steelers made him the clear #2 target for Roethlisberger. And he does not have what made Decker successful last year which was size. I think tall WRs that can go up for balls helped to offset the decline in arm strength of Manning.

Basically this whole perception is about Manning and assuming that as long as they have him they will have a dominant offense. I pointed out examples of guys like Favre and Kurt Warner who went from MVP caliber years in their second to last years in the league to average QBs in their last year in the league. And Manning has shown significant signs of decline in arm strength.
 
No question that Denver is going to be the main obstacle for the Pats to get to the superbowl this year, BUT......They're not an "unbeatable juggernaut" like they are being portrayed in the media because of all the FA signings that they made.

I think Ball is an issue for them at RB - He fumbles just as much as Ridley, doesn't pass block well OR catch the ball at all, yet there are some here that would rather Ball on the Pats over Ridley. Plus Vareen is head and shoulders above Ronnie Hillman.

Ward will certainly add to the Bronco's run defense and overall physicality, but he's still a liability in coverage, and this is still an era where passing is king. Plus you might not have questions about the Denver OL, but I would be more cautious until we see it its better.

Finally, I think the biggest question for Denver is going to be the continuing deterioration of Peyton Manning, which IMHO is going to be accelerated by the fact defenses are going to catch up with the Denver offense this year. Teams, especially those with decent pass rushers or good secondaries, are going to make it much more difficult for Manning to throw into the areas that he prefers.

Teams are going to take more liberties by flooding the short to mid range zones, while at the same time design rushes to create more immediate pressure. Manning's success is predicated on him getting rid of the ball quickly and to the right person. If you make him double clutch, he loses effectiveness rapidly. Seattle gave the rest of the league a blueprint that not only slowed Manning, it shut him down.

Lets look at what the Pats have done this off season and compare it to what Seattle has built.

Shut down CB - Check
S with super range - Check
2 other DB's with excellent press zone/man coverage skills - Check
Overall depth in the secondary - Check
LB's with coverage and blitz skills - check, but depth is desperately needed
DL who can rush the QB - I think we have 2 parts of that equation, 3 if Kelly comes back healthy. But we do need that "other guy" in the middle plus more depth. It could be Armstead, and Buchanon, a draft pick, or the further maturation of CJones who (btw) DID have 6 sacks.

Maybe it won't end up being as good as the Seattle D, but its obviously being built to specifically combat what is probably the biggest obstacle the Pats are going to face next season. Peyton Manning and the Denver Broncos. But as of this moment in time, its right on track. Lets see what happens in the draft and the rest of FA. Lets see how many of the 6 first year defenders who saw significant snaps make a big 2nd year leap.

BOTTOM LINE - lots of time and evaluations to make before we declare anyone one better or worse than anyone else. Remember this is the time of year where EVERYONE is going to get better

I agree. I still don't get why nationally people are talking about Brady hitting the age wall and not Manning. Well, I get it especially after a career year by Manning, but if you look at his play there is definitely a deep drop in Manning's arm strength.

Last year he got away with the short to intermediate passing game and rarely threw deep (he only attempted 17 passes over 30 yards all year and had a 44% completion rate on passes between 21-30 yards). I think teams will force Manning to try to throw it deep more. It is clear that is what the Pats wanted to do with their offseason moves by making Revis and Browner cover his receivers for an extra second or two. You take away Manning's quick options and make him air out the ball and he becomes mediocre at this point in his career.
 
Broncos don't have to improve that much to beat the Pats again. The key from the last game was Knighton vs the weak interior OL. Knighton is still there and the OL is still the same. With the Pats improved D, their offense wont score as many but the achilles hill of the Pats offense is still there.
 
In your opinion. What you appear to have overlooked is the Broncos willingness to promote from within the organisation whilst acquiring outside talent. This is something the Patriots do on a regular basis but few have issue with that.

Who are the players they will be promoting? In addition, who takes those players reserve spots? The Broncos are not like the Patriots, Belichick builds teams deep and focuses on the backend of the roster, and Elway spends money like my wife at Nordstrom.
 
I just don't look at their moves and think "they lost Decker and Moreno, so they must have taken steps backwards." They added DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward, and Aqib Talib to the defense, Sanders on offense, and are getting back their franchise LT in Clady. This is all before the draft even has happened.

My grandma could probably produce in DEN's offense with Manning, Demarius, Julius Thomas, and Welker as the 4 main guys--and that's before Sanders and the replacement of 2nd round pick Ball at RB. Prior to this last season, Moreno was largely considered a bust. He benefited greatly from their high powered passing attack, and one huge game in Foxborough.

At the end of the day, I think they should be right there again as a major obstacle.


I did not say they took a step back, I said they did not improve or at least not as much as the media believes. They added some good players no doubt about it, but they also lost many good players who were very productive for them.
 
Broncos don't have to improve that much to beat the Pats again. The key from the last game was Knighton vs the weak interior OL. Knighton is still there and the OL is still the same. With the Pats improved D, their offense wont score as many but the achilles hill of the Pats offense is still there.

Ware had 6 sacks in a 13 game season where he was clearly hurt the entire time. In his 3 prior years (reverse order), he had

11.5
19.5
15.5
11
20
14
11.5
8

Phillips has reached double digits in sacks in 3 of 10 seasons, and his career best is 11.5.

Yes, DeMarcus Ware is a huge upgrade on paper. And by huge, I mean freakin' enormous.

They should also have Von Miller back, and for more than 9 games, assuming he doesn't try bribing another pee cup guy.
 
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