Some Perspective on Samuel

[captain stone]

I think BB does perceive value in Asante showing up by week 10 at the latest. It's likely that injuries will have whittled away at CB depth. Having Asante healthy and playing for a contract into the playoffs is of serious value. I do NOT expect any team to offer us something substantially better than a single #1 (i.e. no additional Day one pick) and therefore BB won't take the depth gamble. He most likely needs to beat the Colts to go to the SB.

This should have been the resolution of the Meion situation last year. I doubt that it will be the resolution of the Samuel situation this year. There's just too much money to lose. More likely, is that he is traded (for no less than a starting-caliber CB and a 2nd-rounder, I hope) or he signs the tender, then leaves after the NEP win the SB.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The REAL perspective necessary here is this: earning the average of the top 5 players at his position, Samuel will earn 11x the salary of the average U.S. worker at each game. Put another way, Samuel this year will earn as much as nearly 180 average Americans put together.

And he thinks that is an insult.

Oh pahleese...this isn't about us and them. Every player in the league earns what he will based on a skill set and talent that we can't or chose not to compete with, fueled by our propensity for being entertained by a game select few can play at the professional level. It's no different than comparing movie stars and school teachers - as BB woud say it is what it is.



The problem with this assessment is that you are comparing two choices of which one, "likely to get $20M or more" is impossible, because he's been franchised. He plays for the Patriots, or he plays for no one. Regardless of any media speculation or team manipulation (Jets), you can't seriously believe that someone is going to fork over 2 1sts AND overpay.

The decision RIGHT NOW is between 8M for this year and risking getting the tag again, holding out 10 games and making only 3M, or signing a long term offer. So by your logic, 8 vs 3 vs 13 (or whatever) .... 8 ...3 ... 13, should be a no brainer right ?

He probably figures it's as impossible as Deion Branch getting his last year when he was actually holding out while under contract to us for 1 more year. How'd that tactic work out for Deion?

Remember two other factors play into this. First, the longer it goes on, the more cap money gets locked up in trades and teams redoing deals. Second, if he decides to play the holdout card, it can only damage his overall value to other teams. Leaving the reduced stats and being off for a year. For if he thinks getting paid 8M this year is an insult, what's to stop him from holding out a year or two down the road when some other team overpays for another DB ?

Teams don't care about holdouts unless they are theirs. And there is plenty of money still floating around out there thanks to the new CBA and TV deals increasing the cap dramatically since 2005. A long term deal for Asante can easily cost half of the tag salary alone against anyone's cap this season. All they need is cash for bonus structure and the desire to sign him. He is apparently aware of several teams who would be interested if he were not tagged, and I'm sure he believes or perhaps is even sure they would be interested in proceding at something less than the prescribed draft compensation should the Patriots decide to soften their apparent stance. Asante is trying to soften them up the only way he can.



7 out of 10 don't sign their franchise sheets and hold out ? Huh ? The reason most observers agree that he will play or sign is because holdout franchise players are so rare.

R

That's not what I said. I said 7 out of 10 players who were in the same situation as Asante, coming off a career season and scheduled to be UFA who knew there was more than one team willing to pay him ridiculous money, would not happily agree to play under the tag as some here seem to expect Asante to. They would be biatching and maneuvering for a way out just like Asante is.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

That's not necessarily true though. His value to other teams this year is by most assessments here inflated due to his INT's. He may never get 10 again, and the attention that comes with that, and he may never again appear to be an impact playmaker on a team sorely lacking that on defense (god willing...) again. He may also get hurt or get jumped on the depth chart. All this too factors into his thought process.

I think Asante likes us, but he likes the idea of making the score of a lifetime RIGHT NOW because his stock and the market for it may never be higher. That's what this is all about. Does he want to do well and potentially to even better in a year or two, or does he want a max value deal right now because he knows that is an option. Just as his career being over in a heartbeat is an option.

I'd be fine with the former, but then I'm easy... I appreciate the difference between me at 55 (or even a 20 something QB who grew up playing golf with his successful business man dad) and a 26 year old from a hard scrabble background who did what it took to get this far when probably most of the guys he grew up with are dead or in jail or flipping burgers. Money often matters most to people who had less than nothing including hope or prospects before hard work and football presented them something almost beyond their wildest dreams. Often times in those cases, they can never have too much money going forward because when all this is gone it will be what continues to seperate them (and often entire extended families) from their less than heartwarming roots.

Tom did what he did because he aspires to greatness. Tedy did what he did because he aspires to play winning football and achieving comfort level happiness. Many guys in this league did what they did because they aspired not to end up living in an apartment over a crack house. It's fine for fans to sit back and say invest wisely and be grateful you have more than most of us ever will (you greedy jerk). Well, these guys want to have enough that nothing bad or misfortunate can overtake them or theirs ever again once their ability to play this game is history. They've seen what happened to the generation that came before them. And given the fact that more than half of them will leave this game with some form of disability or other potentially dogging them for the rest of their lives, I just can't blame them.

I wish they all felt about playing here they way we do as fans, but then they know all too well how fickle our devotion to any of them is in this day and age. Once they cease to serve our purposes, we're on to the next guy who can. And if something goes wrong or they made some mistakes we're all too quick to launch into diatribes about personal responsibility for their own lives after football. Well folks, that is what Asante believes he is doing right now, being responsible for his life after football as he sees fit.

The only thing that I would add to this is that we all need to gain some perspective on what the 'franchise' thing is all about.

Asante is a FREE AGENT. He don't need us any more, folks. But through an artificial construct of the owners, pulling a fast one over Upshaw, Asante is stuck with this 'franchise' notion.

He don't need to be here. He don't need us. He is ready to make his own way in life, but he does not actually have a choice in the matter. I don't care if we trained him, he served his duty. He is a FREE AGENT. He honored his contract and it ended LAST YEAR.

I am somebody who proudly votes for the laundry. When players leave town here, they turn their back on me, and mentally, I sometimes do the same, unless it is somebody who really wanted to stay or just unfortunate circumstances. Asante is ready to go. It is that simple. I don't care if he succeeds or fails with another team, but I recognize that he should have the right to go elsewhere once his contract expires. The Franchise Tag is something that the Team springs on the Player after the fact, after a player has already fulfilled his contractual obligation. It is bullsh1t, quite frankly.

To talk about him like we own his ass is just wrong. We don't. But Upshaw has rented his ass to us through this 'franchise' manuever, so we can string him along, trade him, try and force him to play for a team he DOES NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR.

And I don't need to hear about his 8 million. He wants to do what he wants to do. That should be his right, and all players should have the right to choose their employment.

Deion Branch was still under contract with this team, and that makes a huge difference in my mind. Deion signed up BEFOREHAND and failed to honor his duty, while Asante is being TAGGED after the fact.

I think we need to question the franchise tag before questioning Asante's motives. The tag is discriminatory, and normally against the better players in the league. Upshaw is a jerk, yet also weak, when it comes to player rights.

As far as Andy's point about changing the pay scale in the draft, I have always said, and will always say, that we simply need to divide the money more evenly. Less up top and more at the middle and bottom. I would not have a problem with a fixed pay range per round in the draft. Kind of a salary cap for each round, but spread somewhat more evenly. All draft picks face the risk of injury, they all need to 'feed their family'.

 

[fgssand]

The only thing that I would add to this is that we all need to gain some perspective on what the 'franchise' thing is all about.

.

Not much to argue about in your response at all....I agree.

I only point out that Asante is doing what he earned the right to do by fulfilling his contract. NE is also doing what is within their rights by franchising him...that is the way i is under the present CBA.

Asante's best option for this years seems to be to play for the 7.9MM - unless another team makes NE an offer to make it advantageous for them to lift the tag.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Not much to argue about in your response at all....I agree.

I only point out that Asante is doing what he earned the right to do by fulfilling his contract. NE is also doing what is within their rights by franchising him...that is the way i is under the present CBA.

Asante's best option for this years seems to be to play for the 7.9MM - unless another team makes NE an offer to make it advantageous for them to lift the tag.

I'm definitely not trying trying to stir anything up, and I am not normally a 'player' guy. I side with management more often than not. The franchise tag, however, is straight up discrimination. It, more than anything else this league does, seems illegal if a player really challenged it in court.

I know everyone will continue to consider this situation from the point of view that Asante is essentially under the FO's thumb, because that's the way it is, whether it turns out happy or crappy.

That's all.....

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

The franchise tag, however, is straight up discrimination. It, more than anything else this league does, seems illegal if a player really challenged it in court.

Discrimination ? I'd love to hear more of that argument that is doomed to failure.

And the Franchise Tag can't be challenged in court. It's part of a collectively bargained contract, some parts benefit the owners, some the players. The players can't take their wins then sue over their losses.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Discrimination ? I'd love to hear more of that argument that is doomed to failure.

And the Franchise Tag can't be challenged in court. It's part of a collectively bargained contract, some parts benefit the owners, some the players. The players can't take their wins then sue over their losses.

you are welcome to your opinion.

Anything can be challenged in court, and the franchise tag is easy to poke holes in.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Anything can be challenged in court, and the franchise tag is easy to poke holes in.

You can sue for anything but you can't win for anything . . . and that's a non starter.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I think it is worth while to consider Asante's point of view as being different than what we fans or the front office wants.

It lends a little perspective.

Not all of us are going to agree on the 'merits' of the franchise tag, but it would be blind to think it won't play into Asante's mindset.

We can talk about what he will/should/could/ought to do all we want, but the only thing Asante is thinking about is what works for him.

I don't really blame him. And I hate Deion for the stunt he pulled.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

We can talk about what he will/should/could/ought to do all we want, but the only thing Asante is thinking about is what works for him.

Yeah, I guess that $30-$40M that he's likely been offered doesn't work for him. Only the $60-70M that he probably wants - after a mediocre nothing of a career followed by one terrific season.

Whatever.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I think it is worth while to consider Asante's point of view as being different than what we fans or the front office wants.

It lends a little perspective.

Not all of us are going to agree on the 'merits' of the franchise tag, but it would be blind to think it won't play into Asante's mindset.

We can talk about what he will/should/could/ought to do all we want, but the only thing Asante is thinking about is what works for him.

I don't really blame him. And I hate Deion for the stunt he pulled.

If you don't like the merits of the franchise tag, then IMO you should be against restricted free agency as well. Until a player has played four seasons, he is the ownership of the team that he's with, even if no longer under contract.

Look no further than Wes Welker. He had no ties to the Miami Dolphins once the 2007 NFL business year began other than the fact that he only had three years in the league. That made him Miami Dolphin property. To get rid of restricted free agency, however, you'd have to get rid of the new regulations on length of rookie contracts.

I have no problem with the franchise tag because the team is financially binded by it, in a sense. Once you put the franchise tag on a player, that money comes off the cap. I could see your point if a team could simply slap the tag on someone with no financial ramifications only as a way to get a draft pick. However, look at what the Colts had to do. Manning had to restructure his contract and several starters were not re-signed so Indy would have the money for Freeney.

Because of that, I don't consider the franchise tag as something that only benefits owners and screws players.

 

[Triumph]

You're mistaken. Agents are limited by the NFLPA who licenses them to a flat fee of 3% of the players contract as it is paid out (they don't get a % of anything until he gets it). Their fee for franchise and transition tag tenders is 2% the first year, 1.5% if the player is tagged a second year and 1% if he is tagged a third time.

Thanks for clearing that up. Did that change in the last few years, because I distinctly recall something about NFL agents not sharing in Franchise fee's?

Obviously, it benefits Asantes agent to hold out as well. If Samuel signed a deal with only a 10 Mil signing bonus (same as Clement), Shavers would almost double his salary vs the Tag.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It was always a lesser % but the new CBA further reduced it on repeat tagging. Owners likely felt this was a good thing as it meant more money in the players pocket. The NFLPA likely agreed to it willingly because they know it decreases the liklihood that agents will advise their clients to just go along. It's easy money in the sense that you don't have to expend hours negotiating, but it's a third less than their minimum take if the player even does a one year non tag deal.

I believe $22M of Clements deal is quantified as guaranteed over the first 3 seasons. $660K of that will therefore be guaranteed to reach his agents pocket. Shavers is only going to get $156K this year guaranteed if his player signs the tag. (He would get $234K if the did a seperate one year deal like Alexander did with the Seahawks that stipulated no more tags. And for that I'm sure the client is only too happy to see the agent's cut jump...)

Next year if his player is re-tagged he would get less though the player gets 20% more - roughly $142K, or if he's injured he could get bupkiss. If he's tagged for a third year, which will never happen as the rate escalates to highest 5 players in the league, he would get less again - maybe $125K on a $12.5M tag. So for the agent it's $660K+ guaranteed in a long term deal vs. $156K to potentially maybe $420K+, or potentially nothing beyond this season, or push for a compromise that gets him a little more now and his player to UFA in 2008.

Fans tend to complain a lot about agents and are quick to blame them when a player doesn't see reason. Maybe if they were actually entitled to a bigger piece of the pie, more than $30K per million which is an unrealistic commission by any standards, they wouldn't be so inclined to push clients to go for the moon. I think the players union gets that, which is why they keep them so restricted. Perhaps if Shavers were sitting on 6% of a 6 year $40M deal with $18M guaranteed he'd be more inclined to advise his client that $18M guaranteed (or his agents cut of $1M+ guaranteed) is nothing to be insulted over.

 

[dhamz]

The franchise tag, however, is straight up discrimination. It, more than anything else this league does, seems illegal if a player really challenged it in court.

The players elect leaders to represent them in collective bargaining. They then ratified the agreement that their representatives collectively bargained. There is nothing to challenge in court.

 

[Ring 6]

The only thing that I would add to this is that we all need to gain some perspective on what the 'franchise' thing is all about.

Asante is a FREE AGENT. He don't need us any more, folks. But through an artificial construct of the owners, pulling a fast one over Upshaw, Asante is stuck with this 'franchise' notion.

He don't need to be here. He don't need us. He is ready to make his own way in life, but he does not actually have a choice in the matter. I don't care if we trained him, he served his duty. He is a FREE AGENT. He honored his contract and it ended LAST YEAR.

I am somebody who proudly votes for the laundry. When players leave town here, they turn their back on me, and mentally, I sometimes do the same, unless it is somebody who really wanted to stay or just unfortunate circumstances. Asante is ready to go. It is that simple. I don't care if he succeeds or fails with another team, but I recognize that he should have the right to go elsewhere once his contract expires. The Franchise Tag is something that the Team springs on the Player after the fact, after a player has already fulfilled his contractual obligation. It is bullsh1t, quite frankly.

To talk about him like we own his ass is just wrong. We don't. But Upshaw has rented his ass to us through this 'franchise' manuever, so we can string him along, trade him, try and force him to play for a team he DOES NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR.

And I don't need to hear about his 8 million. He wants to do what he wants to do. That should be his right, and all players should have the right to choose their employment.

Deion Branch was still under contract with this team, and that makes a huge difference in my mind. Deion signed up BEFOREHAND and failed to honor his duty, while Asante is being TAGGED after the fact.

I think we need to question the franchise tag before questioning Asante's motives. The tag is discriminatory, and normally against the better players in the league. Upshaw is a jerk, yet also weak, when it comes to player rights.

As far as Andy's point about changing the pay scale in the draft, I have always said, and will always say, that we simply need to divide the money more evenly. Less up top and more at the middle and bottom. I would not have a problem with a fixed pay range per round in the draft. Kind of a salary cap for each round, but spread somewhat more evenly. All draft picks face the risk of injury, they all need to 'feed their family'.

There is a big flaw in your theory.
You are saying he fulfilled his contract and is a free agent, and that is not correct.
His contract includes a clause that say it can be extended one year unilateraly by the team placing the franchise tag on him.

You make it sound like this part of the contract does not exist.
In fact every NFL player when they signed their contract did not sign for the length of the deal, but for the length of the deal PLUS the team option to extend it with the franchise tag.

 

[Water Boy]

So, the thing is, for everything we think we know about Asante, I think he knows that about this FO too.

Excellent post.