So, @RapSheet tells us Julian Edelman could be worth $7M/year on the open market

[Brady6]

Brady6 No pun intended bro cuz i read many of your posts and i have mad respect for you! But we do have to get much more talented. Please be honest about that and read and think bout what i said. I know what the official 40 time was. Just saying he ran many high4.3s and the 4.46 while hung over and dehydrated and probably on weed. Just watch his playspeed it is rediculous!! Dez Bryant has run in 4.6 range many many times but watch his gamespeed. And yes BLACKMON is BETTER than ANY wr on Broncos! HANDS DOWN. Thomas was just big highjumping project, nowhere near the passcatcher Dez Bryant or BLACKMON is. Its not even close. Blackmon had 250 yrd game hungover with henne and Gabbert pushing the ball. Then you factor Dobson could develop into decker or better. Gronk is better than J Thomas and Vereens is better than Moreno. Then theres a good chance Tony Gonzalez is there in 2TE sets and teaching BLACKMON Gronk and our other young guys on science of pass catching like how to not waste movement running routes. Then add to the Oline a rg or center who plays with power athleticism and a nasty maulers mentality To set tone against these top defense's and BLACKMON and the offense are unstoppable!!!! Not to mention catching passes from Tom Brady. WE ARE BETTER THAN THAN THE BRONCOS HANDS DOWN!!!!!! BRING ON DENVER SF SEATTLE AND ANY TALENTED TEAM EMERGING AND WE EMBARRASS THEM!!!!

We just need to do this right for a change. Brady6Stop surrounding Tom Brady with journeyman garbage.

Thats y we can pull off BLACKMON trade off. This is wr deep draft. But we have to make REALISTIC offers!! Mallett and #2 Or a #1. Brady6What we offered for Josh Gordon was a ******ed disgrace!!!! What a third or fourth round for a terrell owens talent. Really came back to bite Bellichick!! Gordon or Blackmon isn't worth more than tavon wilson or another Bequette???? Going for an impact game changing talent Bellichick needs to really mean it unless the suspense of how tavon wilson bequettehighto,Dowling od Hightower will turn out is just to great to give up for Josh Gordon or Justin Blackmon. STOP THIS MADNESS AND PUT AN OFFENSE AROUND BRADY FOR A CHANGE

AS FOR EDELMAN HE CATCHES BONES. HE IS NOT AS FEARED AS BROWN OR TY HILTON. Brady6HILTON TORCHED SEATTLE SECONDARY,NOWAY EDELMAN DOES THAT. Brady6BROWN HAD1500 yrds Edelman barely 1000 yrds. Antonio Brown snatched passes intermediate range downfield. Edelman had 105 glorified handoffs. I dont mind Edelman as our #4 option. If he is ANYTHING more than that count on rooting for seattle or sf to beat Denver and Manning for us again

I have no issue my man; you seem like an excited fan who wants to add top tier talent. Personally, I would prefer talent that does not have a drinking problem. The last thing this franchise needs in light of the Hernandez saga is a player that has the potential to drive drunk and pick up a vehicular homicide charge.

I am not high enough on Blackmon to take that risk personally. Would I be mad if the Patriots traded for him? No, I am just not going to advocate for him, there are other players I would prefer over him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

So we went back and forth over two pages to come to the same conclusion we both shared at the beginning of the debate? This sounds like a Seinfeld episode.

It's sheer idiocy. Deus has it right, it is like saying that Rick Robey was a more talented basketball player than Larry Bird because his 3 cone was better. Talent relates to the sport in question, not the underwear olympics, and invoking combine numbers for free agent contracts is nothing short of moronic. Once a player has a couple of seasons in the league their body of work as a football player is what matters, not how many times they benched 225; in truth that should be the standard before they come in the league as well, as combine numbers only serve as a baseline to see how players match up in similar drills, and have nothing to do with actual football talent. By the concept of "talent" being employed by certain people in this forum Micheal Bishop was the more "talented" QB than Tom Brady, and by that logic should have been the choice to replace Bledose, not Brady, and Larry Bird should NEVER have played in the NBA, he simply was not "talented" enough.

 

[50-yard-line]

It's sheer idiocy. Deus has it right, it is like saying that Rick Robey was a more talented basketball player than Larry Bird because his 3 cone was better. Talent relates to the sport in question, not the underwear olympics, and invoking combine numbers for free agent contracts is nothing short of moronic. Once a player has a couple of seasons in the league their body of work as a football player is what matters, not how many times they benched 225; in truth that should be the standard before they come in the league as well, as combine numbers only serve as a baseline to see how players match up in similar drills, and have nothing to do with actual football talent. By the concept of "talent" being employed by certain people in this forum Micheal Bishop was the more "talented" QB than Tom Brady, and by that logic should have been the choice to replace Bledose, not Brady, and Larry Bird should NEVER have played in the NBA, he simply was not "talented" enough.

Simple bottom line to answer all of this: did opposing D's ever game-plan against JE? Top corner moving all over the field with him? Doubled? Bracketed constantly?

Simple answer: no.

When the Pats play Pittsburgh, AB gets Talib all over the field.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Simple bottom line to answer all of this: did opposing D's ever game-plan against JE? Top corner moving all over the field with him? Doubled? Bracketed constantly?

Simple answer: no.

When the Pats play Pittsburgh, AB gets Talib all over the field.

Agree completely, the claim that Edelman is as talented a football player as Brown is stupidity, period.

 

[Brady6]

Simple bottom line to answer all of this: did opposing D's ever game-plan against JE? Top corner moving all over the field with him? Doubled? Bracketed constantly?

Simple answer: no.

When the Pats play Pittsburgh, AB gets Talib all over the field.

Do you realize that there is a difference between “talent” and “skill”?

Just an FYI Talib was out against the Steelers.

 

[BelichicksHoodie]

Simple bottom line to answer all of this: did opposing D's ever game-plan against JE? Top corner moving all over the field with him? Doubled? Bracketed constantly?

Simple answer: no.

When the Pats play Pittsburgh, AB gets Talib all over the field.

Of course opposing defenses game planned for Edelman, he's the best receiver on the roster. A bum doesn't catch 100 balls. Is he as good as Antonio Brown? No. Is he a very good receiver? Yes, I think he is. The stats back that claim up.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Of course opposing defenses game planned for Edelman, he's the best receiver on the roster. A bum doesn't catch 100 balls. Is he as good as Antonio Brown? No. Is he a very good receiver? Yes, I think he is. The stats back that claim up.

Edelman is definitely a good receiver, he proved that this season, but the claim he is as talented as Brown is one only a complete idiot would make

 

[Brady6]

I think it is hilarious that a poster has used the words stupidity and idiot to describe someone calling Edelman more talented than Brown. Apparently, he does not own a thesaurus and cannot understand the difference between “talent” and “ability”.

Edelman has more talent, because talent is a natural aptitude. He is bigger, faster, stronger, and more agile than Antonio Brown, those are natural. Brown has more ability or at least it appears he does, but ability is a skill that can be acquired. If you are going to refer to others as stupid or idiots at least have 6th grade English proficiency. Not that you should be referring to anyone as stupid or idiotic because it is rude and immature.

 

[BelichicksHoodie]

Edelman is definitely a good receiver, he proved that this season, but the claim he is as talented as Brown is one only a complete idiot would make

Who said Edelman is as talented as Brown? I can't find anyone saying such a thing in this thread Ivan......

 

[Brady6]

Who said Edelman is as talented as Brown? I can't find anyone saying such a thing in this thread Ivan......

I said he has more physical talent, which he does. Talent is very different from ability; it does not make him a better player than Brown. RGIII is more talented physically than Tom Brady but Tom Brady is the GOAT. You’re new on here but you will learn there are really great posters but then there is 1%-2% who either cannot understand context or choose to take things out of context and then belittle people in order to achieve something, I am not sure what.

 

[SalemPats]

I would just like to know, if you had a choice (salary/contract doesn't matter) between mini-tron and Amendola who would you choose.

 

[supafly]

I responded to a poster who quoted me and said Brown was a superior “talent” which he is not, he is currently a superior player, but he is not a superior talent.

I'd be curious to see how many here would agree with you that Antonio Brown is not a superior talent to Julian Edelman. I think most of us would think that Antonio Brown is much more talented than Julian Edelman.

I don't think it's too difficult to understand why Edelman was the guy who caught 1.5 passes per quarter in a checkdown role, considering that we had zero other reasonable receiving targets, major injuries to Gronk, Vereen, and Amendola, absolutely no downfield threats whatsoever, and the league's worst TE grouping--by far. Of course Edelman averaged 1.5 catches every quarter.

 

[Brady6]

I'd be curious to see how many here would agree with you that Antonio Brown is not a superior talent to Julian Edelman. I think most of us would think that Antonio Brown is much more talented than Julian Edelman.

I don't think it's too difficult to understand why Edelman was the guy who caught 1.5 passes per quarter in a checkdown role, considering that we had zero other reasonable receiving targets, major injuries to Gronk, Vereen, and
Amendola, absolutely no downfield threats whatsoever, and the league's worst TE grouping--by far. Of course Edelman averaged 1.5 catches every quarter.

Sup it is talent, not ability. Antonio Brown is a better WR and has more ability but Edelman has more natural talent. There is a difference between talent and ability as I have said, but talent does not always translate into success. Take Michael Vick he was likely the most talented QB of the past 15 years but his ability was not nearly as great as Brady, Rodgers, etc.

As far as devaluing Edelman because he stepped up when others were hurt that is just ridiculous. He caught 69% of the footballs thrown his way so it is not as if they threw the football to him 300 times and he ended up with 105 catches. I pointed out in another post that a lower percent of Brady’s passes were targeted at Edelman this past season than any season, Welker played with the Patriots. Welker played with the likes of Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez, and others.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Who said Edelman is as talented as Brown? I can't find anyone saying such a thing in this thread Ivan......

You would have to be a complete moron to think that combine numbers are relevant to a player's contract after they have been in the league for 4 years, and only aa few of the PFF and fantasy football obsessed are actually dumb enough to cite them as relevant, so i am guessing you already have your answer.


Chad Jackson>Jerry Rice.


Don't believe me, look at their forty times...................

 

[kennyb]

Sup it is talent, not ability. Antonio Brown is a better WR and has more ability but Edelman has more natural talent. There is a difference between talent and ability as I have said, but talent does not always translate into success. Take Michael Vick he was likely the most talented QB of the past 15 years but his ability was not nearly as great as Brady, Rodgers, etc.

As far as devaluing Edelman because he stepped up when others were hurt that is just ridiculous. He caught 69% of the footballs thrown his way so it is not as if they threw the football to him 300 times and he ended up with 105 catches. I pointed out in another post that a lower percent of Brady’s passes were targeted at Edelman this past season than any season, Welker played with the Patriots. Welker played with the likes of Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez, and others.

Talent is many things...ability to adjust to the ball, hand to eye coordination. The combine 40, shutltle, vertical jump etc. are pretty crude measures of "talent".

Regardless, saying that Edelman has as much talent as a much more productive and versatile WR because he has slightly better combine numbers is stupid. It's pointless and irrelevent. It'd be like being a 30 year old engineer and being asked what you got on your SAT tests. It's IRRELEVENT. "So why do they give SAT tests then? LOL"...that'll be your next question.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Really?

Antonio Brown
• Height: 5101
• Weight: 186
• 40 Yard Dash: 4.56
• 20 Yard Dash: 2.61
• 10 Yard Dash: 1.56
• 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 13
• Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
• Broad Jump: 08'09"
• 20 Yard Shuttle: 4.18
• 3-Cone Drill: 6
Edelman
• Height: 5103
• Weight: 195
• 40 Yard Dash: 4.52
• 20 Yard Dash: 2.58
• 10 Yard Dash: 1.52
• 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 14
• Vertical Jump: 36 1/2
• Broad Jump: 10'03"
• 20 Yard Shuttle: 3.92
• 3-Cone Drill: 6.62

Edelman is bigger, faster, stronger, more agile, and can jump longer/further.

At this point, I have to assume that you're a troll, because only a troll would claim that talent is measured in combine numbers. Literally nobody in the NFl would claim that. Just look at this: 2011 NFL Combine WR Results - Historical NFL Scouting Combine Data

According to the combine results, Ricardo Lockette is the most talented WR to come out that year. I mean, sure, AJ Green is okay, but Lockette is only slightly smaller and has a better shuttle time and a MUCH better 40 time. I forget which team he's currently dominating the NFL for, care to remind me?

Says who you? Last I heard from Amendola was on 9/25/13 when he told reporters he was close to 100%. Apparently you know more about Danny’s groin than he does…

“I had Randy Moss at one point. He was pretty good at [catching high balls]. Those are really unique players. We have a very good skill set of a receivers in Julian, and the way Austin [Collie] played yesterday, Danny [Amendola] played his heart out. We had plenty there yesterday, we just couldn’t do enough early in the game to put pressure on the team to really play from behind. We got behind and it was just too much to dig ourselves out of a hole.

Says Brady: “I wish we could have done more on the first couple of third downs of the game, just to put some points on the board so that we can make it a little bit tougher on them. But I’m proud of the way we fought. Our guys played with a lot of toughness, with a lot of resiliency. Even all the way up to the end we fought hard. That’s something to be [proud of]. That’s really the mark of coach [Bill] Belichick and what he talks about. For a team where — like I said, the NFL tries to level the playing field every year; we always feel like we’ve got a pretty good shot.”

.98http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2014/01/20/tom-brady-on-dc-its-a-very-abrupt-end-to-season/

:lol: you clearly didn’t major in economic or finance. You think Amendola is so good and one breath and then refer to his contract as a sunk cost in the next breath.

I can pretty much guarantee that I'm significantly more educated in both than you are. For one, I didn't say anything about Amendola being 'so good'. For another, how good he is has no relevance whatsoever to which parts of his contract are a sunk cost and which are not. Clearly you don't know what a sunk cost is. Let me help you:

Guaranteed money = sunk cost. It is pointless to even discuss this money in relation to his value going forward, because it's spent whether he stays or is cut.

Money that can be saved by cutting him = not a sunk cost. A rational person will evaluate his expected performance moving forward against this number, and this number alone, because that's the trade-off that's currently in question. You can either keep him and pay this money or cut him and save this money. Clearly, you are not a rational person.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Sup it is talent, not ability. Antonio Brown is a better WR and has more ability but Edelman has more natural talent. There is a difference between talent and ability as I have said, but talent does not always translate into success. Take Michael Vick he was likely the most talented QB of the past 15 years but his ability was not nearly as great as Brady, Rodgers, etc.

As far as devaluing Edelman because he stepped up when others were hurt that is just ridiculous. He caught 69% of the footballs thrown his way so it is not as if they threw the football to him 300 times and he ended up with 105 catches. I pointed out in another post that a lower percent of Brady’s passes were targeted at Edelman this past season than any season, Welker played with the Patriots. Welker played with the likes of Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez, and others.

So what you're saying is that reading defenses, progressing through your reads quickly, remaining calm under pressure, and throwing the football accurately are not subsets of talent for a QB. Interesting.

In any case, from your argument it seems that even you'll acknowledge that Antonio Brown is a better and more productive receiver than Edelman. Which means that you've now derailed this thread for a solid 2+ pages because rather than admit when you're wrong you'd rather create a semantic argument re: talent vs. skill. With priorities like that, you belong on Capitol Hill.

 

[Brady6]

Talent is many things...ability to adjust to the ball, hand to eye coordination. The combine 40, shutltle, vertical jump etc. are pretty crude measures of "talent".



Regardless, saying that Edelman has as much talent as a much more productive and versatile WR because he has slightly better combine numbers is stupid. It's pointless and irrelevent. It'd be like being a 30 year old engineer and being asked what you got on your SAT tests. It's IRRELEVENT. "So why do they give SAT tests then? LOL"...that'll be your next question.

Well actually it isn't, a talent cannot be acquired it is natural. Adjusting to footballs, hand and eye coordination is as you said an "ability". Ability or skill can be acquired.

The 30 year engineer does not have same natural aptitude and therefore is not as talented as the recent graduate with the higher SAT score. The 30 year engineer has more experience during which he was able to acquire skills that make him a better engineer.

Brown is a more skilled and productive WR currently but he has also been targeted 100+ times in the last 3 NFL season whereas Edelman had been targeted had been targeted a combine 40 times in the 2 NFL seasons prior to this one. Brown has had the opportunity to acquire more skills through repetition. There is a difference and if you don't understand all I can do is tell you and it's up to you to believe or understand it.

 

[Brady6]

So what you're saying is that reading defenses, progressing through your reads quickly, remaining calm under pressure, and throwing the football accurately are not subsets of talent for a QB. Interesting.



In any case, from your argument it seems that even you'll acknowledge that Antonio Brown is a better and more productive receiver than Edelman. Which means that you've now derailed this thread for a solid 2+ pages because rather than admit when you're wrong you'd rather create a semantic argument re: talent vs. skill. With priorities like that, you belong on Capitol Hill.

Generally I like your posts so I don't want to have any animosity here. That aside I did not derail anything I put out facts, definitions, metrics to explain what I was saying as politely as possible. You and a few others still insisted on dispute it so I tried to explain to you all in ways that you would understand. If I am trying to say something and others are unable to comprehend it than obviously I am not being clear so I do my due diligence to better explain it. Brown is not a superior talent, he is actually a lesser talent, but he is a more skilled and productive receiver. He has had more opportunity to acquire those skills he was targeted 230 times in the previous 2 season compared to Edelman who was targeted 40 times in his previous 2 seasons. Antonio Brown should be the better player that he is, he has had the reps and experience to develop.

Also keep in mind that Brown was a 3 year starter at WR at Eastern Michigan, Edelman was a QB in college who had to learn a new position. We will see in the next few years if Edelman's talent can make him a better WR than Brown.

As I said though even if we agree to disagree I have no personal issue with you and overall like and respect much of what you say on here.

 

[Deus Irae]

talent
[tal-uhnt]
noun
1.
a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
2.
a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.

Talent | Define Talent at Dictionary.com

1
a : any of several ancient units of weight
b : a unit of value equal to the value of a talent of gold or silver
2
archaic : a characteristic feature, aptitude, or disposition of a person or animal
3
: the natural endowments of a person
4
a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude
b : general intelligence or mental power : ability
5
: a person of talent or a group of persons of talent in a field or activity

Talent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I can't read all the back and forth, but it may be that people are arguing different definitions of "Talent".