So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[SHOWTIME15]

And that’s fine, we will see how it plays out. But like I said, you keep saying he’s the most important piece, he picks the players, he draws up the schemes etc etc. but the success is glaring with/without. It seemed a lot easier to build teams with Brady didn’t it?

And again, the Tampa thing you are reaching…they were 7-9 and didn’t make the playoffs for 15 years.

Tampa had crap coaching and Jameis as their QB in 2019, but it doesn't take away the fact that they had talented players on both sides of the ball. The Pats in 2019 were a playoff team, but the talent level that Tampa had that year was way better than what NE had. And it's not even close. And on top of that, Brady brought in Brown, Gronk, and Fournette, all of whom were the most important offensive players in the SB. And I'll remind you as I've reminded the other Tommyites on this forum - what Brady did in 2020 was no different than what Matt Stafford did with the Rams in 2021. Both went to new teams and won the super bowl right away in their home stadium. And their stats were very similar.

 

[Wozzy]

And that’s fine, we will see how it plays out. But like I said, you keep saying he’s the most important piece, he picks the players, he draws up the schemes etc etc. but the success is glaring with/without. It seemed a lot easier to build teams with Brady didn’t it?

And again, the Tampa thing you are reaching…they were 7-9 and didn’t make the playoffs for 15 years.

BB drafted Brady.

And the Bucs...

There have been 10 teams since 2015 that averaged over 2 turnovers offensively per game, how many of them have been 500 or better?

Zero is the answer. The average number of wins for all these teams was four.

The 2015 Bucs had the most turnovers of all ten teams (41) and they had the best record at 7-9 of all ten teams.

Jameis Winston's 30 Interceptions in 2019 is tied for 6th worst in NFL history. His 12 fumbles was tied for 5th worst in the NFL that season. That team was dead last in total turnovers in 2019, the majority of which was caused by the one guy most responsible for protecting the ball... the QB.

Jameis Winston also led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2019, he threw 33 TD's. So you saying Tom Brady brought some magical element beyond mainly protecting the ball and bringing a couple friends to play there is ridiculous fan gushing. It's ironic your name is "all3phases" when you clearly think only one matters.

 

[All3Phases]

Tampa had crap coaching and Jameis as their QB in 2019, but it doesn't take away the fact that they had talented players on both sides of the ball. The Pats in 2019 were a playoff team, but the talent level that Tampa had that year was way better than what NE had. And it's not even close. And on top of that, Brady brought in Brown, Gronk, and Fournette, all of whom were the most important offensive players in the SB. And I'll remind you as I've reminded the other Tommyites on this forum - what Brady did in 2020 was no different than what Matt Stafford did with the Rams in 2021. Both went to new teams and won the super bowl right away in their home stadium. And their stats were very similar.

Except what stafford did was go to one of the most successful teams over the last 5 years with the best coach in the league. Brady went to a dysfunctional franchise that hasn’t been to the playoffs in the 15 years prior…the structure was massively different. I guess you block that out as a Brady hater I’m guessing?

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, pretty much... there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into creating those comprehensive pre-draft rankings. I can give you many more if you'd like?... there are a ton of pre-draft rankings available for reference... I haven't found one that had Thornton ranked higher than any of the receivers I mentioned except for in a few instances Shakir.


Again, I referenced multiple sources already.

Greg Bedard said "... my polling of 10 NFL execs put the reach factor at about 95 percent for Strange and 75 percent on the raw, skinny and inconsistent catching Thornton."

Ben Volin spoke with NFL executives and was told "most teams had Strange anywhere from rounds 2-4 on their boards."

Pro Football Focus polled over a dozen league sources about the biggest surprise of the 1st round and the majority said it was Cole Strange to the Patriots. One AFC scout said "I couldn't believe it." An NFC scout said "I was shocked to see him go that early." Another NFL executive laughed at the pick.


Right, but you're missing the point. They most likely could have taken Thornton much later than #50 and they didn't have to flush another draft pick down the toilet trading up to get a player that no one else wanted picks #50-54.


Who was taking Willis in the 1st round? I don't recall that being an actual thing. This QB draft class sucked royally which is another reason why I have no faith in Zappe being worth anything. So Kiper liked Willis?... that makes everything you're saying correct?


But you didn't. The last 30 years there are only 5 quarterbacks to win a Super Bowl who may not get into the HOF. Stafford is the maybe. Flacco isn't a HOFer but he had a HOF postseason in 2012. The 2000 Ravens (Dilfer) and 2002 Bucs (Johnson) had phenomenal defenses... it happens occasionally where a great defense carries a team to a Super Bowl title. The only non-HOF quarterback for sure in the last 30 years who won a Super Bowl without having played exceptionally throughout the postseason or who wasn't carried to a title by their defense was Nick Foles. Ouch.


Eli Manning in 2011... that team was probably below average. Ouch again.

I sort of recall the greatest quarterback of all-time winning multiple Super Bowls with the likes of David Patten, David Givens, Brandon LaFell, Chris Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell, Danny Amendola and Phillip Dorcett. Who were his HOF receivers?... oh that's right, there were none.

I heard Bedard this week. After he watched more film on Thorton, he likes what he sees far more than he initially did. So his opinion on the guy has already changed.

 

[Pats2000]

And that’s fine, we will see how it plays out. But like I said, you keep saying he’s the most important piece, he picks the players, he draws up the schemes etc etc. but the success is glaring with/without. It seemed a lot easier to build teams with Brady didn’t it?

And again, the Tampa thing you are reaching…they were 7-9 and didn’t make the playoffs for 15 years.

Tampa had two 1000 yard receivers and added gronk and AB. With a lot of talent on defense. They were stacked, stop deluding yourself

 

[All3Phases]

Tampa had two 1000 yard receivers and added gronk and AB. With a lot of talent on defense. They were stacked, stop deluding yourself

Not sure about you, but this fanbase never used to brag about receiver yardage when talking about a roster. If that’s what makes you loaded then it’s news to me. The patriots didn’t have loaded teams that often then over 20 years

And again, the talent has been there...The team wasnt successful. The 2021 Patriots were talented, they didnt win. Its hard to win

 

[Rob0729]

I hate doing draft grades. They seem like an exercise in futility.

If Strange becomes an All Pro and Thorton at 1200 yard receiver, no one is going to care if they were overdrafted. If they are busts, people will kill Belichick and the Pats' scouting even if they were considered steals at the time they were drafted. No one is going to remember the draft grades a year from now.

I get people just do it for discussion purposes and more power to you, but some people get too wrapped up in what Mel Kiper or another draft analyst feels about the picks. Who cares? These guys are more wrong than right like most GMs.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Except what stafford did was go to one of the most successful teams over the last 5 years with the best coach in the league. Brady went to a dysfunctional franchise that hasn’t been to the playoffs in the 15 years prior…the structure was massively different. I guess you block that out as a Brady hater I’m guessing?

Yes, but Stafford had little playoff experience prior to 2021. Brady already had 30+ postseason wins. Right after the super bowl, this board had a thread where pretty much everyone agreed that Stafford is not a HOFer. On top of that, Stafford beat Brady 2x enroute to the super bowl. And Stafford did something Brady has never done before - put together a long game winning drive with less than 45 seconds left. yeah brady has never done that before. Edge - stafford

 

[All3Phases]

Yes, but Stafford had little playoff experience prior to 2021. Brady already had 30+ postseason wins. Right after the super bowl, this board had a thread where pretty much everyone agreed that Stafford is not a HOFer. On top of that, Stafford beat Brady 2x enroute to the super bowl. And Stafford did something Brady has never done before - put together a long game winning drive with less than 45 seconds left. yeah brady has never done that before. Edge - stafford

Im not sure what your point is? You said they were the exact same scenarios then just admitted they were different.

 

[Boomer B]

He took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland in 1991. I call that a mess.

And of course Brady went to a loaded team. More loaded than any team he's ever played for. But look at brady's record the past few years vs the Rams and Saints - he's 1-7. He routinely beat those teams with Belichick. He's struggled in Tampa vs good defenses for the most part.

Once again you show you’re a fraud. Anyone on this forum can point to your posts when Brady went to the Bucs. You basically said he’s done, the Bucs aren’t going anywhere, the line sucks, etc…Then throughout the season you were giddy when they started off slow. Now all of a sudden the Bucs were the most loaded team he’s ever played for. You move the goalposts to fit your predetermined narrative once your favourite player left the team. Pathetic.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Once again you show you’re a fraud. Anyone on this forum can point to your posts when Brady went to the Bucs. You basically said he’s done, the Bucs aren’t going anywhere, the line sucks, etc…Then throughout the season you were giddy when they started off slow. Now all of a sudden the Bucs were the most loaded team he’s ever played for. You move the goalposts to fit your predetermined narrative once your favourite player left the team. Pathetic.

Uh, most of it was trolling, which pretty much everyone knew what I was doing. and the trolling worked too lol

 

[Boomer B]

Im not sure what your point is? You said they were the exact same scenarios then just admitted they were different.

Don’t even bother with him. His username used to TommyBrady12. Like a 3 year old he threw a fit when Tom left, spamming this board with anti-Brady B.S. Tom was the best ever when he was here, now that he’s not here he’s average. Changed his username to Mac10. If Mac ever leaves he’ll change his name again and throw another fit.

 

[Boomer B]

Uh, most of it was trolling, which pretty much everyone knew what I was doing. and the trolling worked too lol

So back then it was trolling but you still spout the same BS so how is it not trolling now? Why are you even allowed on here if your trolling and wasting everyone’s time?

 

[All3Phases]

Don’t even bother with him. His username used to TommyBrady12. Like a 3 year old he threw a fit when Tom left, spamming this board with anti-Brady B.S. Tom was the best ever when he was here, now that he’s not here he’s average. Changed his username to Mac10. If Mac ever leaves he’ll change his name again and throw another fit.

Thats ok, Im open to having any discussion as long as the arguments can at least be backed up reasonably. No harm in disagreeing. Im just not sure if his anger is misguided...Seemed like the team no longer wanted Brady on the roster but that could just be me

 

[1960Pats]

BB drafted Brady.

And the Bucs...

There have been 10 teams since 2015 that averaged over 2 turnovers offensively per game, how many of them have been 500 or better?

Zero is the answer. The average number of wins for all these teams was four.

The 2015 Bucs had the most turnovers of all ten teams (41) and they had the best record at 7-9 of all ten teams.

Jameis Winston's 30 Interceptions in 2019 is tied for 6th worst in NFL history. His 12 fumbles was tied for 5th worst in the NFL that season. That team was dead last in total turnovers in 2019, the majority of which was caused by the one guy most responsible for protecting the ball... the QB.

Jameis Winston also led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2019, he threw 33 TD's. So you saying Tom Brady brought some magical element beyond mainly protecting the ball and bringing a couple friends to play there is ridiculous fan gushing. It's ironic your name is "all3phases" when you clearly think only one matters.

It's possible that Winston's turnovers were a result of forcing the ball downfield. And according to many fans here, that was the doing of their clueless head coach.

 

[All3Phases]

It's possible that Winston's turnovers were a result of forcing the ball downfield. And according to many fans here, that was the doing of their clueless head coach.

In NO, Seemed like they didnt have trouble winning with Winston in their short stint.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

So back then it was trolling but you still spout the same BS so how is it not trolling now? Why are you even allowed on here if your trolling and wasting everyone’s time?

I'm not part of the group that switched teams...the 2022 Buccaneers thread is already 55 pages and training camp hasn't started yet. Just calling out the real frauds on this board.

 

[Wozzy]

It's possible that Winston's turnovers were a result of forcing the ball downfield. And according to many fans here, that was the doing of their clueless head coach.

Winston had two head coaches before Bruce Arians, that's who he was. Don't get me wrong, Sean Payton worked really hard to keep a restrictor plate on Winston to make him more efficient, but Winston had no choice at that point... he was unemployable and needed to rehab his image.

Brady stepped in and won a ring with the same head coach, and the both of them had to learn a hard lesson at the hands of those very Saints that no matter how great your QB and weapons are... every team needs to be able to run the ball.

The Bucs got shellacked in week 9 when they set an NFL single game record for fewest rushing attempts in a game against the Saints. I have no doubt that was in part because Arians loves free wheeling downfield offense and because any QB, if left to their own devices will choose to pass the ball rather then run.

That was Arian's fault, it was Leftwich's fault and it was Brady's fault... but no doubt Brady brought some of what he learned in NE to Tampa after that and the team started leaning on the run game, running the offense through the RB's and passing to them more. Along with stopping unnecessary offensive penalties and development of the young CB's, learning that they needed to run the ball and stay balanced is what propelled the Bucs to a championship that year.

 

[TommyD4207]

Yup, I know that. I didn’t say they went off guns blazing and won the SB on their first year. Took them a few years but they were able to turn it around. My point was if other coaches in that era could turn it around within 3 years why would the original poster say we should throw Bills record out during that time.

Belichick did turn it around in her 3rd year. Year 4 Modell announced he was moving the team and everything went to ****. The fact they won any games that year was a miracle.

Context.

 

[Brotherblues]

It's possible that Winston's turnovers were a result of forcing the ball downfield. And according to many fans here, that was the doing of their clueless head coach.

He threw one TD against us last year, the details are fuzzy but it was near the goal line, and he threw a backfooted prayer that was one of the more ill-advised throws I've ever seen a professional make. Sure, it resulted in a fluky TD there, but the main takeaway for me at that moment was that this is the level of decision-making that leads to 30 picks. And a few seconds later the commentators basically walked out of the TV and shook my hand telling me and everyone else how much they agreed.