So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[crawhammer]

Evaluation isn't just based on the player athleticism and play, it's also based on team need. They are going to rank players they don't need lower.

So what's your point with the Rams? They identified their primary need as OG and they took one with their first pick. They were considering Strange because they thought his draft value was around 104 when they would be picking. This isn't hard to figure out.

Every year the Jets win the draft, Every year the Jets suck. The Jets didn't win anything. The Pats got speed on offense to compete with the track meet teams like the Bills and Chiefs.

The fact is that defense is becoming less effective with the new rules. They did get faster on defense with free agency regardless. So let's see, the free agency guys are just as much a question mark as any draft picks. We won't know anything until game 4 or 5 of the season.

We'll see about the Jets but they've had an A+ offseason... Wilson was hideous last season so he needs to make a big step forward for the team to be successful.

The Bills you can forget about. I think the gap has only gotten wider from last season when we weren't even close to the Bills. They also have had an A+ offseason and they should coast to the division title next season. Do you think there's any question about the division?

Have you watched any film on Thornton at all? Dude does everything right, he fights for the ball, has good body control, has elite speed, catches the ball with his hands and not his body, runs routes well even in a system with a reduced route tree and adjusted to the ball well when his QB under threw him. He's looking like a steal in the draft on film

He's fast... I get it. He's rail thin and won't stand up to NFL caliber press coverage. If he gains weight it'll probably slow down his vertical speed. He's not a versatile route runner and he has small hands for his height. Not a YAC receiver. He just wasn't a 2nd round pick, and certainly wasn't worth the trade up, especially when there were better receivers still available. I don't see him as anything more than our 4th or 5th receiver.

 

[upstater1]

After the 2020 season, Howell was widely projected as a top-five pick for the 2022 draft. But he lost many of the weapons that helped him to consecutive 3,500-yard passing, 30-touchdown seasons.

Howell was first off the board in the fifth round, going to the Washington Commanders. Several ACC coaches noted his toughness and how he had less to work with in 2021.

This quote is from this ESPN+ story: 'I can't believe that': College coaches on the NFL draft's best fits, biggest drops and sleepers

I found it interesting because this Howell kid looked like an absolute stud in previous years when he had all his weapons. He ends up a 5th rounder. Reminds me maybe of Stidham having an excellent junior year then dropping when Auburn went backwards. You can also think about how not having a team around you impacts a player like Thornton, who might have looked fantastic in Alabama's offense.

 

[crawhammer]

Projected by whom? Projected by a horde of media personalities whose only professional credentials is a degree in broadcast journalism… that’s it.

“They could have been taken lower” is you peering into an alternate universe and pretending to know where 31 other teams had players on their boards. Newsflash: 32 teams don’t have every player on their board… their boards look nothing like Mel Kipers who has every available player on there good and bad alike.

You obviously love the player, that's great, I hope he's as good as you say. He wasn't a 1st round player... Patriots could have had him at #54. They should have stayed at #21 and taken Elam or McDuffie. Take Strange at #54 if you really want him but I would have stayed with a WR there... targeting Skyy Moore who would have been a great fit in our offense. Instead they reached for a vertical speedster with a puny frame.

Time and production will answer this question. Two years from now if Thornton is one of the best WR’s from this draft class and the Pats just won their 7th ring you won’t be back here telling us how wrong you were… nope, you’ll be here telling us how Bill was lucky Mac fell to him at 15 and carried him and the entire team to a championship because “QB’s are magic.”

I'm pretty confident most of things you said there won't happen.

Correction… JImmy went to a Super Bowl, Cassel won double digit games and went to a pro bowl. If Nick Foles, Joe Flacco and Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl so could those others. Teams win Super Bowls… not magical QB’s. That’s just fanboy nonsense. Joe Gibbs won three different rings with three different average journeyman QB’s… it doesn’t require a unicorn.

Jo Gibbs might be the greatest head coach of all-time... winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 mediocre quarterbacks is probably the greatest accomplishment of any HC in the history of the league.

You single out 3 non-HOF quarterbacks who won Super Bowls. You left out the part about 25 of the last 30 Super Bowl winning teams having a HOF quarterback. You also left out that Joe Flacco had one of the greatest postseason runs of any quarterback in the history of the league... yes he did that. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl because the Ravens defense only gave up 5.75 points per game in the postseason. Foles won a Super Bowl because the opposing head coach benched his starting CB who had played virtually 100% of the snaps for the entire season.

Jimmy G nor Cassel worked out for the Patriots and it's highly debatable what they accomplished elsewhere.

Zappe was knocked down on the draft chart because he’s 6 feet tall and played at a smaller conference. The same conference as Patrick Mahomes and he’s the same height as Drew Brees and taller by almost two inches than Russell Wilson. Stidham is done, Hoyer is a coach… they needed another QB. It was a good value pick.

Get back to me when in 4 years after he's never played a meaningful down.

On your first comment, that's the gist of this discussion, the idea they could have been taken "much lower". You're losing more ground every day with this claim, as more and more team sources say that Strange had a 2nd round grade, and Thornton did too.

The commentary hasn't changed... the same sources who had these players projected lower than where the Patriots took them hasn't changed. If you ask for enough opinions then of course you're going to find counter opinions.

On your second comment:
- first: all we gave up to jump to #50 was a 5th rounder, which was a very good value for a mid-2nd round move, plus at that point we were playing with house money having gotten a 3rd and 4th earlier from KC. I don't know what you mean about "still would have had their other 2nd round pick" - all we had to start with was #54, and we traded away #183 or something to jump up to #50.
- second: Thornton belongs in the discussion with Pickens-Pierce-Moore. If our brain trust preferred him, which I can see why after looking at video and hearing comments from other sources this week, then they did the right thing to make the move and make this pick. It's not controversial, it only proves that the talking heads were wrong.

Um, I don't think anyone has been proven right or wrong about the player at this point. Maybe Thornton will blow up the league and average 20+ yards per reception. Maybe he's behind Parker, Bourne, Meyer and Agholor and doesn't see the field much.

Pre-draft here are some WR rankings (I've included Khalil Shakir who the Bills selected in the 5th round)...

CBS Sports (position rank & overall rank)
Pickens (6 & 32)
Moore (9 & 50)
Shakir (10 & 77)
Pierce (18 & 139)
Thornton (19 & 158)

Walter Football (position rank & projected round)
Pickens (8 & 1-2)
Pierce (10 & 2-3)
Moore (12 & 2-4)
Thornton (21 & 4-6)
Shakir (23 & 4-6)

Draft Wire (position rank)
Pickens (6)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (33)

SI (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (8)
Shakir (13)
Pierce (14)
Thornton (22)

Yahoo Sports (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (30)

Average pre-draft position rank:
Pickens (6.8)
Moore (9.4)
Pierce (10.4)
Shakir (15.2)
Thornton (25)

Thornton last by a wide margin. The trade and the pick made no sense. Major draft blunder. Doesn't mean he won't be good... we'll see.

 

[yukon cornelius]

This quote is from this ESPN+ story: 'I can't believe that': College coaches on the NFL draft's best fits, biggest drops and sleepers

I found it interesting because this Howell kid looked like an absolute stud in previous years when he had all his weapons. He ends up a 5th rounder. Reminds me maybe of Stidham having an excellent junior year then dropping when Auburn went backwards. You can also think about how not having a team around you impacts a player like Thornton, who might have looked fantastic in Alabama's offense.

what's wild is i just finally made the connection that as an ESPN+ subscriber on the TV (so I can watch college softball), I can log in on line and read their premium articles


hahaha

 

[All3Phases]

The crazy thing abut all this analysis is the cap. With the way it's moving and with the premium paid at certain positions, there's always the possibility that Belichick is gaming things to maximize his cap sitaution.

Consider that people look at the Chiefs taking McDuffie or Karlaftis or even Skyy Moore. But then also note that Andy Reid got Mahomes killed in last year's Super Bowl, so he ran out and signed Thuney to a huge $80m contract. If you're paying that much to an interior lineman, what's happening for you in free agency?

Are you trading away Tyreek Hill because you can't pay him?

What if Reid had drafted a Strange / Thuney type player in a previous year? He would've been able to afford to keep Tyreek Hill. I just looked at the Chiefs draft history, and in the 5 years prior to the Bucs v. Chiefs Super Bowl, the Chiefs had taken only two IOL in the draft, 4th rounder Parker Ehringer and 7th rounder, Nick Allegretti.

The Patriots meanwhile since 2014 drafted Jon Halapio, Cameron Fleming, Bryan Stork, Shaq Mason, Tre Jackson, Ted Karras, Joe Thuney, Hjalte Froholdt, Dustin Woodard, Mike Onwenu, William Sherman, Chasen Hines, Cole Strange. 13 in 9 years! This doesn't even count UDFAs like David Andrews and the guys we bring in every year.

This is the unfathomable and unknowable part for fans, but I have high confidence that Belichick has thought all of this through.

I will be wrong if we don't make a huge splash in FA next March.

Well the Patriots have lost a bunch of high profile players as well, and according to reporting the Chiefs offered Tyreek a ton of money.

In your Scenario how has drafting a bunch of IOL helped the Patriots retain Premium positions like CB or QB? They just lost JC Jackson and Lost Brady 2 years ago to what was an incredibly affordable contract.

 

[rochrist]

So what's your point with the Rams? They identified their primary need as OG and they took one with their first pick. They were considering Strange because they thought his draft value was around 104 when they would be picking. This isn't hard to figure out.


We'll see about the Jets but they've had an A+ offseason... Wilson was hideous last season so he needs to make a big step forward for the team to be successful.

The Bills you can forget about. I think the gap has only gotten wider from last season when we weren't even close to the Bills. They also have had an A+ offseason and they should coast to the division title next season. Do you think there's any question about the division?


He's fast... I get it. He's rail thin and won't stand up to NFL caliber press coverage. If he gains weight it'll probably slow down his vertical speed. He's not a versatile route runner and he has small hands for his height. Not a YAC receiver. He just wasn't a 2nd round pick, and certainly wasn't worth the trade up, especially when there were better receivers still available. I don't see him as anything more than our 4th or 5th receiver.

You're terrible at this.

 

[rochrist]

You obviously love the player, that's great, I hope he's as good as you say. He wasn't a 1st round player... Patriots could have had him at #54. They should have stayed at #21 and taken Elam or McDuffie. Take Strange at #54 if you really want him but I would have stayed with a WR there... targeting Skyy Moore who would have been a great fit in our offense. Instead they reached for a vertical speedster with a puny frame.


I'm pretty confident most of things you said there won't happen.


Jo Gibbs might be the greatest head coach of all-time... winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 mediocre quarterbacks is probably the greatest accomplishment of any HC in the history of the league.

You single out 3 non-HOF quarterbacks who won Super Bowls. You left out the part about 25 of the last 30 Super Bowl winning teams having a HOF quarterback. You also left out that Joe Flacco had one of the greatest postseason runs of any quarterback in the history of the league... yes he did that. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl because the Ravens defense only gave up 5.75 points per game in the postseason. Foles won a Super Bowl because the opposing head coach benched his starting CB who had played virtually 100% of the snaps for the entire season.

Jimmy G nor Cassel worked out for the Patriots and it's highly debatable what they accomplished elsewhere.


Get back to me when in 4 years after he's never played a meaningful down.


The commentary hasn't changed... the same sources who had these players projected lower than where the Patriots took them hasn't changed. If you ask for enough opinions then of course you're going to find counter opinions.


Um, I don't think anyone has been proven right or wrong about the player at this point. Maybe Thornton will blow up the league and average 20+ yards per reception. Maybe he's behind Parker, Bourne, Meyer and Agholor and doesn't see the field much.

Pre-draft here are some WR rankings (I've included Khalil Shakir who the Bills selected in the 5th round)...

CBS Sports (position rank & overall rank)
Pickens (6 & 32)
Moore (9 & 50)
Shakir (10 & 77)
Pierce (18 & 139)
Thornton (19 & 158)

Walter Football (position rank & projected round)
Pickens (8 & 1-2)
Pierce (10 & 2-3)
Moore (12 & 2-4)
Thornton (21 & 4-6)
Shakir (23 & 4-6)

Draft Wire (position rank)
Pickens (6)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (33)

SI (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (8)
Shakir (13)
Pierce (14)
Thornton (22)

Yahoo Sports (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (30)

Average pre-draft position rank:
Pickens (6.8)
Moore (9.4)
Pierce (10.4)
Shakir (15.2)
Thornton (25)

Thornton last by a wide margin. The trade and the pick made no sense. Major draft blunder. Doesn't mean he won't be good... we'll see.

Wow, some real NFL experts you cited there.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

LOL Crawdud knows for a fact that Strange would have been there at pick 54. he called 31 NFL GMs and found out. The guy still can't understand that every team has its own draft board. They don't base their drafts off of what CBS or Walter Football sports says. Those morons base their own rankings off of Youtube videos. Real NFL scouts go and see players in person.

 

[Wozzy]

You obviously love the player, that's great, I hope he's as good as you say. He wasn't a 1st round player... Patriots could have had him at #54.

"Because I say so" isn't proof of anything.

I'm pretty confident most of things you said there won't happen.

You always see the most negative outcome as the likely outcome. You were undoubtedly one of the guys telling us we had no talent in the early part of 2014, 2016 and 2018.

Jo Gibbs might be the greatest head coach of all-time... winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 mediocre quarterbacks is probably the greatest accomplishment of any HC in the history of the league.

It can't happen though, QB's make coaches and teams great... odd.

You single out 3 non-HOF quarterbacks who won Super Bowls.

I could have named a dozen or more...

You left out the part about 25 of the last 30 Super Bowl winning teams having a HOF quarterback.

25 of the last 30 Super Bowl winners had great players in every position group. Great teams find great players.

You also left out that Joe Flacco had one of the greatest postseason runs of any quarterback in the history of the league... yes he did that. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl because the Ravens defense only gave up 5.75 points per game in the postseason. Foles won a Super Bowl because the opposing head coach benched his starting CB who had played virtually 100% of the snaps for the entire season.

Either QB's win Super Bowls or they don't, it's odd how I can create a long list of average or just good QB's who won but you can't show us one example of a great QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl ring.

Jimmy G nor Cassel worked out for the Patriots and it's highly debatable what they accomplished elsewhere.

It's not debatable, we have their stats and results... they are what they are. Jimmy played in a Super Bowl and was pressured all game because his stud Center got hurt right before the playoffs. Teams win Super Bowls, not magic QB's. When Tom Brady's O-LIne wasn't up to snuff in the playoffs he got knocked around by Denver's defense and it got the O-Line coach fired.

Get back to me when in 4 years after he's never played a meaningful down.

You'll pretend this conversation never happened and this website's search engine is terrible.

The commentary hasn't changed... the same sources who had these players projected lower than where the Patriots took them hasn't changed. If you ask for enough opinions then of course you're going to find counter opinions.

Malik Willis was supposed to go in the first round, he was on Kiper's "best available players" list scrolling across the screen for three days while the draft was underway... it's a joke. That guy will never be an NFL QB, the "experts" said he was the best QB in the draft. Media experts are like you, when they're wrong there will be zero accountability and they'll move onto the next subject blissfully unaware. Draft experts should get fired if they suck... they won't.

Um, I don't think anyone has been proven right or wrong about the player at this point. Maybe Thornton will blow up the league and average 20+ yards per reception. Maybe he's behind Parker, Bourne, Meyer and Agholor and doesn't see the field much.

Pre-draft here are some WR rankings (I've included Khalil Shakir who the Bills selected in the 5th round)...

CBS Sports (position rank & overall rank)
Pickens (6 & 32)
Moore (9 & 50)
Shakir (10 & 77)
Pierce (18 & 139)
Thornton (19 & 158)

Walter Football (position rank & projected round)
Pickens (8 & 1-2)
Pierce (10 & 2-3)
Moore (12 & 2-4)
Thornton (21 & 4-6)
Shakir (23 & 4-6)

Draft Wire (position rank)
Pickens (6)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (33)

SI (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (8)
Shakir (13)
Pierce (14)
Thornton (22)

Yahoo Sports (position rank)
Pickens (7)
Moore (9)
Pierce (10)
Shakir (15)
Thornton (30)

Average pre-draft position rank:
Pickens (6.8)
Moore (9.4)
Pierce (10.4)
Shakir (15.2)
Thornton (25)

Thornton last by a wide margin. The trade and the pick made no sense. Major draft blunder. Doesn't mean he won't be good... we'll see.

Thornton lost the pre-draft popularity contest, if he becomes a good player it won't matter at all where he was drafted... just like every prospect.

JC Jackson went undrafted, he was just the highest paid free agent CB in the entire 2022 offseason... he got 83 million dollars. Tell us how JC Jackson "lost" because of his draft status. Laughable.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

"Because I say so" isn't proof of anything.

You always see the most negative outcome as the likely outcome. You were undoubtedly one of the guys telling us we had no talent in the early part of 2014, 2016 and 2018.

It can't happen though, QB's make coaches and teams great... odd.

I could have named a dozen or more...

25 of the last 30 Super Bowl winners had great players in every position group. Great teams find great players.

Either QB's win Super Bowls or they don't, it's odd how I can create a long list of average or just good QB's who won but you can't show us one example of a great QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl ring.

It's not debatable, we have their stats and results... they are what they are. Jimmy played in a Super Bowl and was pressured all game because his stud Center got hurt right before the playoffs. Teams win Super Bowls, not magic QB's. When Tom Brady's O-LIne wasn't up to snuff in the playoffs he got knocked around by Denver's defense and it got the O-Line coach fired.

You'll pretend this conversation never happened and this website's search engine is terrible.

Malik Willis was supposed to go in the first round, he was on Kiper's "best available players" list scrolling across the screen for three days while the draft was underway... it's a joke. That guy will never be an NFL QB, the "experts" said he was the best QB in the draft. Media experts are like you, when they're wrong there will be zero accountability and they'll move onto the next subject blissfully unaware. Draft experts should get fired if they suck... they won't.

Thornton lost the pre-draft popularity contest, if he becomes a good player it won't matter at all where he was drafted... just like every prospect.

JC Jackson went undrafted, he was just the highest paid free agent CB in the entire 2022 offseason... he got 83 million dollars. Tell us how JC Jackson "lost" because of his draft status. Laughable.

It's his agenda. He wants everyone to believe Belichick is a bum and Tommy is amazing. He WANTS the patriots to fail so that he can come and point to Belichick and say he was carried to 6 super bowls by Brady.

 

[All3Phases]

It's his agenda. He wants everyone to believe Belichick is a bum and Tommy is amazing. He WANTS the patriots to fail so that he can come and point to Belichick and say he was carried to 6 super bowls by Brady.

Unfortunately the Stats are on his side so far if thats the case

 

[Wozzy]

Unfortunately the Stats are on his side so far if thats the case

Every time Brady won a Super Bowl ring he had a top 5 defense.

Tommy played zero defensive snaps and made zero tackles, sacks, interceptions.

Who assembled 6 of those Super Bowl winning rosters, who drafted Brady?

Stats aren’t on his side at all.

 

[Boomer B]

LOL Crawdud knows for a fact that Strange would have been there at pick 54. he called 31 NFL GMs and found out. The guy still can't understand that every team has its own draft board. They don't base their drafts off of what CBS or Walter Football sports says. Those morons base their own rankings off of Youtube videos. Real NFL scouts go and see players in person.

The majority of the NFL draft writers base their opinion on their talks with scouts and team contacts. They don’t just make it up themselves or YouTube videos. On SportsHub the other day they had an NFL journalist on and said the vast majority base their mocks on conversations with their contacts, and said that Kiper was probably the only big name one who mocked on his own gut projections.

 

[Boomer B]

Every time Brady won a Super Bowl ring he had a top 5 defense.

Tommy played zero defensive snaps and made zero tackles, sacks, interceptions.

Who assembled 6 of those Super Bowl winning rosters, who drafted Brady?

Stats aren’t on his side at all.

The QB has the biggest impact on the game. Bill is the best coach of the modern era but Brady had a bigger impact being the QB.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

...The commentary hasn't changed... the same sources who had these players projected lower than where the Patriots took them hasn't changed. If you ask for enough opinions then of course you're going to find counter opinions.

Pre-draft here are some WR rankings (I've included Khalil Shakir who the Bills selected in the 5th round)...

CBS Sports (position rank & overall rank)
Pickens (6 & 32) ...
Walter Football (position rank & projected round)
Pickens (8 & 1-2)...
Draft Wire (position rank)
Pickens (6)...
SI (position rank)
Pickens (7)...
Yahoo Sports (position rank)
Pickens (7)...
Average pre-draft position rank:
Pickens (6.8)...
...Major draft blunder. Doesn't mean he won't be good... we'll see.

LOL, you are making our point for us. These are couch potatoes who obviously didn't know jack about Thornton, or Strange for that matter.

The commentary HAS changed, and it's all from actual teams. Strange and Thornton had 2nd round grades, by multiple TEAMS who are glad to reveal it after the draft.

 

[Wozzy]

The QB has the biggest impact on the game. Bill is the best coach of the modern era but Brady had a bigger impact being the QB.

BB drafted Brady… he wasn’t delivered to us by a host of angels or aliens.

Brady doesn’t win dck without quality defense. He put up the single greatest performance in Super Bowl history and lost to Nick Foles because our defense was wracked with injury.

If Trent Dilfer can do it then it doesn’t require magic QB… that’s just a bad fanboy take.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The QB has the biggest impact on the game. Bill is the best coach of the modern era but Brady had a bigger impact being the QB.

Then why has Belichick had 3 winning seasons without Brady? And why have teams won with good to great HCs but average QBs - Simms, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien, Foles, Eli, Flacco, etc.? Heck, even Matt Stafford last year essentially replicated what Brady did in 2020 - won the super bowl his first year on a new team in their home stadium with essentially the same stats.

 

[Wozzy]

Then why has Belichick had 3 winning seasons without Brady? And why have teams won with good to great HCs but average QBs - Simms, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien, Foles, Eli, Flacco, etc.? Heck, even Matt Stafford last year essentially replicated what Brady did in 2020 - won the super bowl his first year on a new team in their home stadium with essentially the same stats.

As soon as someone provides an example of a superman QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl and winning it this debate will be worth having… there isn’t one example of it happening.

But we can create a massive list of average QB’s winning a Super Bowl.

Fanboys can’t and won’t even attempt to try to debate this… because it’s where they’re take goes completely off the rails.

 

[Boomer B]

Then why has Belichick had 3 winning seasons without Brady? And why have teams won with good to great HCs but average QBs - Simms, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien, Foles, Eli, Flacco, etc.? Heck, even Matt Stafford last year essentially replicated what Brady did in 2020 - won the super bowl his first year on a new team in their home stadium with essentially the same stats.

Did anyone say Bill sucks? 3 winning seasons isn’t the same as SB wins

 

[Boomer B]

BB drafted Brady… he wasn’t delivered to us by a host of angels or aliens.

Brady doesn’t win dck without quality defense. He put up the single greatest performance in Super Bowl history and lost to Nick Foles because our defense was wracked with injury.

If Trent Dilfer can do it then it doesn’t require magic QB… that’s just a bad fanboy take.

And no where did I say Bill sucks or he deserves no credit for the Pats success or for drafting Brady. Of course he does. But if you weigh the importance of the people involved in the Patriots Dynasty I give more credit to Brady then Bill. Being the QB he has the biggest impact on the game. To even bring Trent Diller into the conversation is ludicrous.