Slot Options without Edelman

[Ring 6]

No, pretty much knew who the more talented back was in 2010.

The more “talented” player is not the better player in many cases, especially when the “talented” player is sucking, pouting and a cancer on his team.

Perhaps you can explain why buffalo got almost nothing more for lynch than the patriots got for maroney

 

[TheRainMaker]

How did a slot option thread get turned into a thread about Maroney?

Every thread goes off topic.

Thanks to this thread, I am now imagining Lynch on the Patriots for their Super Bowl run in 2011, instead of BJGE. That would have been fun.

Man, training camp just can't get here soon enough.

The Bills would’ve never traded him to the Pats. Weren't the Pats rumored to be interested in trading for him? I think he would’ve done really well with the Pats.

No, pretty much knew who the more talented back was in 2010.

I am guilty of being in denial and thinking Maroney was a better back than Lynch. But my opinion of Maroney quickly changed after the 2007 season and then I completely gave up on him after his injury in 2008.

Lynch really wasn’t that effective in Buffalo and I thought he was overrated. This and his troubles in the locker room were why he was only traded for fourth round pick. It turns out that Lynch was just poorly utilized and on a really bad team.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

The more “talented” player is not the better player in many cases, especially when the “talented” player is sucking, pouting and a cancer on his team.

Perhaps you can explain why buffalo got almost nothing more for lynch than the patriots got for maroney

No need to, you explained why Lynch went for pennies on the dollar in a previous post.

I do like how you try to deviate from the actual issue of who the better rb was. Kontra exposed your past argument plain and simple. No amount of trying to move your argument in a different direction is going to change that.

 

[Ring 6]

No need to, you explained why Lynch went for pennies on the dollar in a previous post.

I do like how you try to deviate from the actual issue of who the better rb was. Kontra exposed your past argument plain and simple. No amount of trying to move your argument in a different direction is going to change that.

Nothing was exposed. I compared maroney to lynch and said I wouldn’t trade maroney for lynch AT THAT TIME.
If you want to believe you have a crystal ball and knew which direction the players would go in, feel free, but that’s silly.

Regardless of any of that. Let’s say I was 100% wrong about evaluating a player 8 years ago. Are you telling me every analysis you have made of players for 8 years has been correct.

Finally the actual point was that I said maroney was a top tier RB.
There is simply no way any one can conclude that me saying I wouldn’t trade him for a guy coming off a 450 yards season, losing his job then getting traded for a 4th means I said he was a top tier RB. It means I said I wouldn’t trade him for a guy who is failing miserably in Buffalo.
Nice try by the hyperbole gang, but a fail. Maybe if you go back another 8 years.....

 

[Kontradiction]

Nothing was exposed. I compared maroney to lynch and said I wouldn’t trade maroney for lynch AT THAT TIME.
If you want to believe you have a crystal ball and knew which direction the players would go in, feel free, but that’s silly.

Regardless of any of that. Let’s say I was 100% wrong about evaluating a player 8 years ago. Are you telling me every analysis you have made of players for 8 years has been correct.

Finally the actual point was that I said maroney was a top tier RB.
There is simply no way any one can conclude that me saying I wouldn’t trade him for a guy coming off a 450 yards season, losing his job then getting traded for a 4th means I said he was a top tier RB. It means I said I wouldn’t trade him for a guy who is failing miserably in Buffalo.
Nice try by the hyperbole gang, but a fail. Maybe if you go back another 8 years.....

Lynch was misused in Buffalol behind a bad OL. He also had injuries in his first year and a suspension in his second. That should have been obvious to anyone who watched him back then instead of "he was underperforming." When he got to Seattle, and began running behind a better OL, things turned around for him.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Nothing was exposed. I compared maroney to lynch and said I wouldn’t trade maroney for lynch AT THAT TIME.
If you want to believe you have a crystal ball and knew which direction the players would go in, feel free, but that’s silly.

Regardless of any of that. Let’s say I was 100% wrong about evaluating a player 8 years ago. Are you telling me every analysis you have made of players for 8 years has been correct.

Finally the actual point was that I said maroney was a top tier RB.
There is simply no way any one can conclude that me saying I wouldn’t trade him for a guy coming off a 450 yards season, losing his job then getting traded for a 4th means I said he was a top tier RB. It means I said I wouldn’t trade him for a guy who is failing miserably in Buffalo.
Nice try by the hyperbole gang, but a fail. Maybe if you go back another 8 years.....

You said maroney was equally talented to Lynch. Your words not mine. You can try to turn the argument in a way that favors you but the fact remains you were dead wrong on this issue and instead of admitting it you choose to turn it into “why didn’t buffalo get that much for Lynch in a trade.” Prob the same reason why the raiders didn’t get that much for moss in 07.

And nobody on this board makes perfect evaluations. Some people man up and say “you know what I was wrong on this issue” and some people feel the need to argue it to the death.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Lynch was misused in Buffalol behind a bad OL. He also had injuries in his first year and a suspension in his second. That should have been obvious to anyone who watched him back then instead of "he was underperforming." When he got to Seattle, and began running behind a better OL, things turned around for him.

I believe the only reason why maroney even sniffed similar numbers to Lynch in buffalo was due the difference in the OL and that buffalo had a really good backup rb in Fred Jackson.

 

[Kontradiction]

I believe the only reason why maroney even sniffed similar numbers to Lynch in buffalo was due the difference in the OL and that buffalo had a really good backup rb in Fred Jackson.

I was actually someone that thought that Maroney caught too much crap around here back then. The OL he ran behind was not a great run-blocking unit, especially along the interior. But the difference in the two backs could have been seen early on, especially when you take into account the different issues that Lynch was dealing with while he was in Buffalo. He was a more decisive, more powerful runner than Maroney was.

 

[Ring 6]

You said maroney was equally talented to Lynch. Your words not mine. You can try to turn the argument in a way that favors you but the fact remains you were dead wrong on this issue and instead of admitting it you choose to turn it into “why didn’t buffalo get that much for Lynch in a trade.” Prob the same reason why the raiders didn’t get that much for moss in 07.

And nobody on this board makes perfect evaluations. Some people man up and say “you know what I was wrong on this issue” and some people feel the need to argue it to the death.

Obviously I turned out to be wrong because lynch improved and maroney didn’t but at the time I made the comments they were fine.

 

[primetime]

BTW, this is all great. But its opinions and guesses.

Britt has been a downfield player (more than Hogan) with some pretty average QBs. He is only a year older (30) than Hogan as well and will now be playing with the GOAT. Look what playing with the GOAT did for Hogan.

So while we can guess and speculate what happened and why and what will happen - Saying Britt isnt a "downfield player" is wrong. He is a downfield player whether he comes here and excels or flames out regardless of his attitude as well - none of that changes what type of WR he is. Can he still do it is the question?? So far in camp he was the standout until he pulled his hamstring. He may not be the "downfield player" he used to be but he might be given what TB has done for receivers.

Also, again, I dont think anything Matthews did his first 3 years in the NFL is "unimpressive". Sure he gets a lot of balls but 225 catches, 2673 yards and 19 touchdowns his first 3 years in the league is pretty solid regardless of system.

Doug Baldwins 1st 3 years in the NFL 130 catches, 1932 yards 12 TD

And BTW
Matthews avg catch % those years was 65%
Baldwins was 62.4

Granted Baldwin's yards per reception is a few yards longer but the point stands. Matthews caught 42% more balls, 28% more yards, and 37% more TDs than Baldwin over their first 3 years in the league.

Also, Matthews did it with 4 different QBs and literally a different one each year - Bradford, Sanchez, Foles and Wentz. Baldiwn, had Jackson for a year and Wilson going forward, exclusively.

Also, if someone came in here and started proclaiming that the great Julien Edelman or even WW for that matter, were overrated because they played with the GOAT and in a system that as BB puts it "favors the slot receiver" people would lose their minds.

By the way, here are the catch % rates for 2 slot WRs
65.6 - Matthews first 4 years in the league.
65.8 - Danny Amendola first 6 years in the league which includes 2 years with the GOAT

Amendola is known for having elite hands.

Lets look at Julian Edelmans last 3 years:

His catch rate was 66.5 and that is with him and Brady literally sharing a brain at this point. Matthews is 65.6 his first four years in the NFL with 4 different QBs none of which hold a candle to Brady.

Matthews and JE have about the same Yards Per Reception avg over those time periods also. I am not saying JM is better than JE at all also. But JE is locked in to TB at this point and that is a huge advantage.

So again, I ask you, without tap dancing, are you going to admit Jordan Matthews at least isnt "unimpressive" and that Britt is at least a proven "Downfield player" regardless of what he may or may not do and what potential boost he may get from playing with the GOAT

Oh, by the way, Matthews and Britt are both playing for contracts this year.

You're cherrypicking counting stats in a situation in which Matthews was the only viable receiver on a team that ran an historically large number of plays. His team traded him for peanuts last year and they got better after they did. Agholor's emergence would suggest that not only was Matthew's not the best slot receiver in the league, he wasn't even the best slot receiver i Eagles training camp.

By the way, both Britt and Matthews were playing for contracts last year. Britt the last two years. How'd that work out?

Like I said, maybe they're great, and I'll certainly be happy if they are, but I think both are closer to the bubble than the top of the roster. The number of wide receivers we've seen come into camp with the promise that Brady would make them into superstars only for them to be on the street come week 1 must number in the hundreds at this point.

 

[mgteich]

Isn't that true for everyone but Edelman and Hogan?

Like I said, maybe they're great, and I'll certainly be happy if they are, but I think both are closer to the bubble than the top of the roster.

 

[primetime]

Isn't that true for everyone but Edelman and Hogan?

Yeah, that was exactly my point before we started this whole rigamarole in which Jordan Matthews and Kenny Britt transformed into superstars...

 

[Ring 6]

You're cherrypicking counting stats in a situation in which Matthews was the only viable receiver on a team that ran an historically large number of plays. His team traded him for peanuts last year and they got better after they did. Agholor's emergence would suggest that not only was Matthew's not the best slot receiver in the league, he wasn't even the best slot receiver i Eagles training camp.

By the way, both Britt and Matthews were playing for contracts last year. Britt the last two years. How'd that work out?

Like I said, maybe they're great, and I'll certainly be happy if they are, but I think both are closer to the bubble than the top of the roster. The number of wide receivers we've seen come into camp with the promise that Brady would make them into superstars only for them to be on the street come week 1 must number in the hundreds at this point.

Using overall stats over a number of years is the exact opposite of cherry picking.

Agholor produced less than Matthews so I’m not sure where you are going with that.

 

[primetime]

Using overall stats over a number of years is the exact opposite of cherry picking.

Agholor produced less than Matthews so I’m not sure where you are going with that.

Man you can set your clock to it, suggest a player signed by the Patriots might not be anything special and here comes the white knight to save the day.

When did Agholor produce less? Not last year. In the context of their Eagles careers, once he moved into the slot Agholor's production last year was similar to Matthews' in previous seasons despite having to contend with Alshon Jeffrey for targets, a far better player than any of the guys Matthews played with and in an offense far less inclined to throw - they attempted nearly 60 passes more in 2014 and 2015, and 40 more in 2016.

 

[Bruins29]

You're cherrypicking counting stats in a situation in which Matthews was the only viable receiver on a team that ran an historically large number of plays. His team traded him for peanuts last year and they got better after they did. Agholor's emergence would suggest that not only was Matthew's not the best slot receiver in the league, he wasn't even the best slot receiver i Eagles training camp.

By the way, both Britt and Matthews were playing for contracts last year. Britt the last two years. How'd that work out?

Like I said, maybe they're great, and I'll certainly be happy if they are, but I think both are closer to the bubble than the top of the roster. The number of wide receivers we've seen come into camp with the promise that Brady would make them into superstars only for them to be on the street come week 1 must number in the hundreds at this point.

I think they will do well. And I am not proclaiming either to be be savior of the team but I do think if healthy JM does well here and KB makes the team

My whole point was to provide some perspective on Matthews that he wasnt really unimpressive. His catch percentage isnt as bad as people are making out compared to other WRs who have solid hands.

 

[Bruins29]

Yeah, that was exactly my point before we started this whole rigamarole in which Jordan Matthews and Kenny Britt transformed into superstars...

Point out who said they were superstars. All I saw was you saying Matthews was unimpressive and Britt wasnt a down field player. When I said JM was the best Slot WR I only meant to imply most productive slot WR because a lot of posters had not realized how good he was there.

The facts are there to back it up that the opposite is true. I dug up all the stats. Going all strawman on it dosnt work either i.e trying to imply I was proclaiming them superstars

None of this guarantees any of these WRs will work out here BTW.

I also dont buy the "he was the only WR on the team so his numbers dont count" BS. Matthews made the fuking plays every year his first 3 years in the league with 4 different QBs. And he did it with a different QB each year. And some of them sucked.

And his catch percentage numbers werent as horrible as everyone was proclaiming especially compared to guys like Baldwin and Amendola.....good company there.

That's cherry picking????

So, Edelmans 2013 season shouldnt count because he was "the only WR they had??"

Just admit JM was better than you thought.

 

[Ring 6]

Man you can set your clock to it, suggest a player signed by the Patriots might not be anything special and here comes the white knight to save the day.

When did Agholor produce less? Not last year. In the context of their Eagles careers, once he moved into the slot Agholor's production last year was similar to Matthews' in previous seasons despite having to contend with Alshon Jeffrey for targets, a far better player than any of the guys Matthews played with and in an offense far less inclined to throw - they attempted nearly 60 passes more in 2014 and 2015, and 40 more in 2016.

Agholor produced less last year than Matthews did in any season he was with the eagles.

 

[Ring 6]

Man you can set your clock to it, suggest a player signed by the Patriots might not be anything special and here comes the white knight to save the day.

.

Typical bs comment from someone who made a stupid comment and got challenged.

Where did I defend Matthews?

I pointed out that you evidently either don’t know what cherry picking is, or purposely misused it.
I pointed out that your comment implying the slot position improved is curious when the production went down.

Nothing to do with defending a patriot, everything to do with you being wrong.

 

[supafly]

No dog in this fight, but I do think some could be sleeping on Matthews a bit. He’s got size, versatility, and offers a big RZ target.

His ability to pick up the playbook will be key.

 

[Bruins29]

Matthews 2014 rookie season at 22 years old caught 67 balls with a 13 yard per reception avg. Mostly from the slot.

Malcom Mitchell rookie season (who everyone here said had an amazing rookie season) at 24 years old caught 32 balls with a 12.5 yard per reception avg who is not even a slot receiver.

Mitchell has the GOAT QB

Matthews had:
8 games with - 2014 Nick Foles who was pretty terrible.
8 games with - 2014 Mark Sanchez who was Mark ****ing Sanchez.