Signing Patriots Free Agents Not Named Tom - Thuney, Van Noy, etc.

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goheels22002

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The Patriots have a load of free agents to deal with not including Tom Brady. On the list are a number of stalwarts, and they come in virtually every position group, except RB. Big decisions.

I'd like to see the Patriots lock up McCourty, Van Noy, Collins, Thuney, Karras, Butler, and Roberts. There are a couple of big ticket players there (Thuney, Van Noy). What is your preference?

This is what I have, let me know who I missed:

Matthew Slater - ST
Nate Ebner - ST
Devin McCourty - S
Kyle Van Noy - LB
Jamie Collins - LB
Elandon Roberts - LB
Danny Shelton - DL
Adam Butler - DL
Keontae Davis - DL
Joe Thuney - OL
James Ferentz - OL
Phillip Dorsett - WR
Ben Watson TE
Keontae Davis - DL
Ted Karras - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL
 
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farn

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Even if he costs a few dollars, I would say Slater is a player that both produces AND brings something in the locker (that is underrated).

I’d like them to sign Bethel. Good pickup last season. If Karras does NOT command starter money, I’d like him back as well. My fear is that many of these players will cost too much.

Roberts, Ferentz & Newhouse should be cheap so their return wouldn’t surprise me.
 

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Let these five guys go:
Ben Watson - TE (retiring)
Keontae Davis - DL
James Ferentz - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL

I'm on the fence about Jamie Collins. Let Devin McCourtey go unless he's willing to come back cheap and make safety a draft priority. Try like hell to bring back everyone else prioritizing Thuney, Van Noy, Butler, Sheldon and Bethel.
 

primetime

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Assuming $30m after the QB issue is solved one way or the other, Thuney and Van Noy are probably gone. Guard is the most replaceable position in football; the difference between a good one and an average one just doesn't make that much of a difference. For the latter, there are too many deep-pocketed former Patriots assistants out there that he'll probably get $15m or more annually, and the Patriots just can't afford that. Collins faded late last season and may or may not price himself out.

The special teamers (Slater, Ebner, Bethel), Butler, and Roberts seem almost certain to return. McCourty is the "big ticket" guy I expect to come back. Shelton may or may not return. Karras is probably going to be overpaid. Most of the others are sub-replacement-level so whatever.

Their needs in free agency (beyond QB) are likely LB, WR, IOL, TE, DT.
 
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Triumph

Pro Bowl Player
Let these five guys go:
Ben Watson - TE (retiring)
Keontae Davis - DL
James Ferentz - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL

I'm on the fence about Jamie Collins. Let Devin McCourtey go unless he's willing to come back cheap and make safety a draft priority. Try like hell to bring back everyone else prioritizing Thuney, Van Noy, Butler, Sheldon and Bethel.
# 6 Dorsett

I did not like the trade when it happened.Andy Johnson argued to no end that Dorsett was a good WR and the Pats got a good deal. The Colts spent a 1st round pick on him. Enough of this failed experiment.

Dorsetts total body of work in NE was eclipsed this past season by rookie Tenn WR AJ Brown.
 

Triumph

Pro Bowl Player
Keep Slater and Jamie Collins who were still playing at high levels.

Van Noy is gone for more money, but Im not concerned because BB has shown that he can find LBs.
 

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# 6 Dorsett

I did not like the trade when it happened.Andy Johnson argued to no end that Dorsett was a good WR and the Pats got a good deal. The Colts spent a 1st round pick on him. Enough of this failed experiment.

Dorsetts total body of work in NE was eclipsed this past season by rookie Tenn WR AJ Brown.
I'd give Dorsett one more chance at cheap money. When healthy early last season he was catching everything thrown to him and was on the cusp of a great year when he got hurt and then faded.
 

Taco

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Is Justin Bethel a free agent? I thought he signed a two year contract. If not let’s bring him back to play with Slater on special teams.
 

Taco

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Keep Slater and Jamie Collins who were still playing at high levels.

I’m not opposed to bringing back Collins. He started hot but then faded throughout the season. I’m curious to see what he will get.
 

Sciz

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I don’t see any reason for Thuney not to be the highest paid guard, because that’s what happens when top offensive linemen hit unrestricted free agency.

That would be in excess of $14 million per year, which has zero chance of happening for the Patriots.
 

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I have some strong opinions in response, nothing personal:
Assuming $30m after the QB issue is solved one way or the other,
Maybe, but this is problematic to the crux of what we're talking about here -- entering the free agent process with one hand tied behind your back. I'm already sick of this drama around Brady.

Thuney and Van Noy are probably gone.
Again, maybe. But why does everyone assume this is the way things should be just because the Pats have a history of letting expensive free agents walk? These two should be prioritized short of breaking the bank. Continuity with proven starters is important! If another team throws ridiculous money at them then so be it. I know it's an unpopular opinion around here but if it would take $30 million to keep Brady I say let him go and use that money on free agent starters like these two. With or without Brady, this team is not making a Super Bowl run in 2020.

Guard is the most replaceable position in football; the difference between a good one and an average one just doesn't make that much of a difference.
That's assuming you have an adequate replacement. I fear that shortchanging chemistry with Scar gone brings the team back to musical chairs on the OL, which could be disastrous. You can't keep letting proven starters leave and not expect to stumble. For instance, they could have done more during the 2018 season to extend Trent Brown, whose absence last season was palpable. Thuney is a solid building block on that unit.

The special teamers (Slater, Ebner, Bethel), Butler, and Roberts seem almost certain to return. McCourty is the "big ticket" guy I expect to come back. Shelton may or may not return. Karras is probably going to be overpaid. Most of the others are sub-replacement-level so whatever. Their needs in free agency (beyond QB) are likely LB, WR, IOL, TE, DT.
McCourtey is the one big-ticket guy I think they can let go in favor of cap savings and the need to get younger, hopefully by drafting a safety high. Butler and Sheldon are important to DL continuity; Karras should be kept if possible for the same reason at OL. I don't know if Slater's performance slipped any in 2018 but he's getting older and might not be worth what they're paying him. Bethel needs to be retained.
 
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Elijah

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I have some strong opinions in response, nothing personal:
Maybe, but this is problematic to the crux of what we're talking about here -- entering the free agent process with one hand tied behind your back. I'm already sick of this drama around Brady.

Again, maybe. But why does everyone assume this is the way things should be just because the Pats have a history of letting expensive free agents walk? These two should be prioritized short of breaking the bank. Continuity with proven starters is important! If another team throws ridiculous money at them then so be it. I know it's an unpopular opinion around here but if it would take $30 million to keep Brady I say let him go and use that money on free agent starters like these two. With or without Brady, this team is not making a Super Bowl run in 2020.

That's assuming you have an adequate replacement. I fear that shortchanging chemistry with Scar gone brings the team back to musical chairs on the OL, which could be disastrous. You can't keep letting proven starters leave and not expect to stumble. For instance, they could have done more during the 2018 season to extend Trent Brown, whose absence last season was palpable. Thuney is a solid building block on that unit.

McCourtey is the one big-ticket guy I think they can let go in favor of cap savings and the need to get younger, hopefully by drafting a safety high. Butler and Sheldon are important to DL continuity; Karras should be kept if possible for the same reason at OL. I don't know if Slater's performance slipped any in 2018 but he's getting older and might not be worth what they're paying him. Bethel needs to be retained.
You've hit on an important point here. Whether or not you think we can keep guys like Thuney and Van Noy has a lot to do with whether you think we'll keep Brady.

Unless you're one of those idiots who thinks he'll take $20M or less here (which you aren't), it's pretty obvious that there's some mutual exclusion between keeping Brady and being able to keep the other expensive players. With a hypothetical $30M cap hit for Brady, we can maybe keep one of those big ticket players, and bring none in from other teams.

I agree with you that at $30M it might not be what's best for the team. But I don't think anyone is assuming we let players go this year because of our history. It's because we're cap broke (either that, or we don't have the GOAT anymore).
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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I don’t see any reason for Thuney not to be the highest paid guard, because that’s what happens when top offensive linemen hit unrestricted free agency.

That would be in excess of $14 million per year, which has zero chance of happening for the Patriots.
Yep...I agree. Thuney will set the market. Patriots will get a good comp pick for him.

Last time they paid top money to a guard, it arguably cost them multiple Super Bowls. I don’t think this is a position you should pay that sort of money to. And while Thuney is a heck of a player, he isn’t an other worldly talent. Already paying Mason a lot too, and he isn’t worth it.
 

mgteich

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I would suggest replacing the second Keontae Davis with Shilique Calhoun DE/LB.

The Patriots have a load of free agents to deal with not including Tom Brady. On the list are a number of stalwarts, and they come in virtually every position group, except RB. Big decisions.

I'd like to see the Patriots lock up McCourty, Van Noy, Collins, Thuney, Karras, Butler, and Roberts. There are a couple of big ticket players there (Thuney, Van Noy). What is your preference?

This is what I have, let me know who I missed:

Matthew Slater - ST
Nate Ebner - ST
Devin McCourty - S
Kyle Van Noy - LB
Jamie Collins - LB
Elandon Roberts - LB
Danny Shelton - DL
Adam Butler - DL
Keontae Davis - DL
Joe Thuney - OL
James Ferentz - OL
Phillip Dorsett - WR
Ben Watson TE
Keontae Davis - DL
Ted Karras - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL
 

primetime

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A quarterback is probably going to cost the Patriots $30m against the cap in 2020 if you factor in the accelerated dead money from Brady regardless of whether it's Brady or someone else. The $30m number I quoted above assumes you've already taken care of the QB position - doesn't matter if it's Brady or Cam Newton or Teddy Bridgewater - and then extended, restructured, and cut guys to get to that number. The only way you're getting more is if you decide to roll with Stidham and a backup-level veteran or if the Patriots win Brown or Hernandez grievances, which is unlikely.

That $30m is to retain the guys you want to retain and sign new ones (and it's probably less than that to play with because you need rookie space and some leeway this year). Van Noy or Thuney alone will cut that in half, most likely, before you even talk about the other guys on that list.

Yep...I agree. Thuney will set the market. Patriots will get a good comp pick for him.

Last time they paid top money to a guard, it arguably cost them multiple Super Bowls. I don’t think this is a position you should pay that sort of money to. And while Thuney is a heck of a player, he isn’t an other worldly talent. Already paying Mason a lot too, and he isn’t worth it.
I generally agree with this, though Mason's cap hit is like $8.5m which isn't too bad, he's the 15th highest paid guard in the league pre-free agency. Even its highest, two years from now, is $10.25m. Thuney is likely to get paid $15m or so per year. (Karras may end up getting more than Mason). Given the number of holes on the team, I think you find a free agent to fill the hole and hope Froholdt or a rookie can step in.

Van Noy is the guy you'd probably rather retain of the two, but he's going to get Bobby Wagner money.
 

mgteich

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Yes, we could depend on Froholdt, Andrews and a mid-level free agent. Would we want one who costs a lot less than Karras?

For me, if needed, Karras could start at guard or center. If all is good, he could be the Game Day backup at both positions. I think that this is worth the couple of million of additional cap hit compared to a free agent C/G.

I also suspect that we will re-sign Ferentz for small money, and keep him as a backup if Andrews can't play.

.(Karras may end up getting more than Mason). Given the number of holes on the team, I think you find a free agent to fill the hole and hope Froholdt or a rookie can step in.
 
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Tunescribe

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A quarterback is probably going to cost the Patriots $30m against the cap in 2020 if you factor in the accelerated dead money from Brady regardless of whether it's Brady or someone else. The $30m number I quoted above assumes you've already taken care of the QB position - doesn't matter if it's Brady or Cam Newton or Teddy Bridgewater - and then extended, restructured, and cut guys to get to that number. The only way you're getting more is if you decide to roll with Stidham and a backup-level veteran or if the Patriots win Brown or Hernandez grievances, which is unlikely.
And that's why going with Stidham or a rookie makes sense with a team that is not going to the Super Bowl with Brady or the likes of Newton/Bridgewater regardless. They just need to bite the bullet and start rebuilding vs. mortgating the future for an expensive holding pattern.
 

mgteich

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The Patriots have a load of free agents to deal with not including Tom Brady. On the list are a number of stalwarts, and they come in virtually every position group, except RB. Big decisions.

I'd like to see the Patriots lock up McCourty, Van Noy, Collins, Thuney, Karras, Butler, and Roberts. There are a couple of big ticket players there (Thuney, Van Noy). What is your preference?

This is what I have, let me know who I missed:

Matthew Slater - ST
Nate Ebner - ST
Devin McCourty - S
Kyle Van Noy - LB
Jamie Collins - LB
Elandon Roberts - LB
Danny Shelton - DL
Adam Butler - DL
Keontae Davis - DL
Joe Thuney - OL
James Ferentz - OL
Phillip Dorsett - WR
Ben Watson TE
Keontae Davis - DL
Ted Karras - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL
SPECIAL TEAMS
Slater will be back.
Ebner will be back if he is healthy.
A strong special teams has always been important to Belichick.
 

mgteich

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The Patriots have a load of free agents to deal with not including Tom Brady. On the list are a number of stalwarts, and they come in virtually every position group, except RB. Big decisions.

I'd like to see the Patriots lock up McCourty, Van Noy, Collins, Thuney, Karras, Butler, and Roberts. There are a couple of big ticket players there (Thuney, Van Noy). What is your preference?

This is what I have, let me know who I missed:

Matthew Slater - ST
Nate Ebner - ST
Devin McCourty - S
Kyle Van Noy - LB
Jamie Collins - LB
Elandon Roberts - LB
Danny Shelton - DL
Adam Butler - DL
Keontae Davis - DL
Joe Thuney - OL
James Ferentz - OL
Phillip Dorsett - WR
Ben Watson TE
Keontae Davis - DL
Ted Karras - OL
Marshall Newhouse - OL
Jermaine Eluemunor - OL
DEFENSE
1) On the DL
Shelton should be re-signed. He was very good. IMO, we also need a backup NT (draftee?).
Butler is an RFA and should be extended.
Roberts should be back.
Calhoun should be back for short money.

2) The LB's
Van Noy and Collins are likely gone.
Roberts should be back.
This is a high draft priority, and we will likely bring in some old vets.
A Hightower restructure would free up $5.3M of cap money to cover the DL.

3) The defensive backfield is the issue
Will Jason leave, freeing some cap money to sign Deven?
I think that D McCourty will be re-signed, the top priority (after the QB position)
We do need to acquire another safety. The draft may or may not work.
 
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