Roster Evaluation

[mgteich]

What is your point? Will the patriots be willing to pay as much as offered from other teams. Personally, I doubt it.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Trey Flowers. Most people on here think he's going to be one of the highest paid DE's in the NFL which is mind boggling. I will eat my words if he is.

 

[Jimke]

Most of your evaluations are too generous. The Patriots have a dearth of good players. This
is because they are losing them in free agency faster than they can replace them in the draft and FA.
Consider their recent losses: Cooks, Amendola, Lewis, Butler, Solder, Ryan, Shead, Long,
Ninkovitch, Collins, Blount,and Bennett. Even the loss of Bolden and Richards hurt their special teams. Unfortunately, you may see Brown, Flowers, Gostkowski, and Allen added to the list
next year.
Their additions from the draft the past couple of years: Wise, Rivers, Michel, and Crossen.

 

[everlong]

As I opined in another comment, JJ is no Logan Ryan, but he's actually been pretty soild in the slot role. It would be at least somewhat surprising to me if Dawson ascends to a starting role at any position in the secondary before the end of this season .... and he could ultimately end up in almost any DB role, IMHO. I'm not willing to pigeonhole him as a "slot guy" yet.

I'm not pigeonholing him beyond this year and the only reason I'm doing it in that context is because for the most part Jason and Gilmore have been really solid. However against a guy like Tyreek Hill you could have him follow him wherever he goes. Assuming Gilmore on Watkins and Jason doesn't have the speed to stick with Hill.

 

[ALP]

white, flowers and gillmore should be rated as pro bowlers

 

[TheRainMaker]

What is your point? Will the patriots be willing to pay as much as offered from other teams. Personally, I doubt it.

My point was it will be interesting to see how the Pats really feel about Flowers. I like Flowers, but he's not a guy you pay top DE money for. The Pats will praise and defend his lack of sacks all day but then use it against him during negotiations. Teams pay for sacks, not pressures. If he gets an offer over $11M, I'd let him walk.

 

[maineman209]

I'm not pigeonholing him beyond this year and the only reason I'm doing it in that context is because for the most part Jason and Gilmore have been really solid. However against a guy like Tyreek Hill you could have him follow him wherever he goes. Assuming Gilmore on Watkins and Jason doesn't have the speed to stick with Hill.

JJ has 4.33 speed. He's pretty agile, too.

If the Pats see Tyreek again, it will likely be in the AFCCG. Dawson has a really steep slope to climb if he's going to supplant JJ by then.

I could see Dawson getting snaps as the second slot guy against formations that feature two pass-catchers in the slot on opposite sides (sort of in place of Chung), but I'd be surprised if he takes significant snaps from JJ while a game is still in doubt.

 

[captain stone]

I'd be fine if Dawson contributed at all this season. At best he is our #7 DB after McCourty, Chung, Harmon, Gilmore, Chung and Jones. As a practical matter, Dawson would be competing for reps with Jackson.

You listed Chung twice. May I ass-me that you meant to list "McCourty" twice?

 

[captain stone]

...Fringe players are guys who might be out of the league if not on the Pats.


E-Elite
PB-Pro Bowl
QS-Quality Starter
S-Starter
C-Contributor
QB-Quality Backup
B-Backup
F-Fringe
ST - Special Teams
PS - Practice Squad


LG James Ferentz B

Thanksdad Ferentz is the living, breathing definition of "Fringe." He wouldn't be drawing an NFL paycheck if it weren't for Uncle Bill, who clearly appears to have some perverse fetish for awful Offensive Lineman from the University of Iowa.

 

[mgteich]

You listed Chung twice. May I ass-me that you meant to list "McCourty" twice?

y

 

[RobertWeathers]

You listed Chung twice. May I ass-me that you meant to list "McCourty" twice?

He included Eugene Chung

 

[maineman209]

He included Eugene Chung

At least it wasn't Wang Chung.

 

[RobertWeathers]

At least it wasn't Wang Chung.

It's sad that I would listen to Dance Hall Days over 98% of today's pop music.

 

[FCB02062]

Pretty sure Matthew Slater wouldn't be on any other roster

 

[mcmurtry86]

Pretty sure Matthew Slater wouldn't be on any other roster

Still one of the better special teams guys in the league wouldn’t be on any roster? He’s been banged up and has lost a step but most teams have a few special teams only guys and most aren’t as good as Slater

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Waddle is a solid swing tackle

I agree. He has an attitude which makes up for some of his lack of athleticism. Clearly Cannon (remember when everyone was shocked when the Pats gave Cannon his present contract) is better, but backup swing tackles are only so good. I always chuckle when other teams are starting offensive lineman we let go and we are still upset with the guys we kept.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Still one of the better special teams guys in the league wouldn’t be on any roster? He’s been banged up and has lost a step but most teams have a few special teams only guys and most aren’t as good as Slater

Slater is still serviceable but I'd need someone to disprove my opinion in which Slater's value resting solely on ST justifies a roster spot.

Hes just not making an impact this year. Age, injury, etc.

If he played ST AND another position on a regular basis then that is a different story.

 

[supafly]

My point was it will be interesting to see how the Pats really feel about Flowers. I like Flowers, but he's not a guy you pay top DE money for. The Pats will praise and defend his lack of sacks all day but then use it against him during negotiations. Teams pay for sacks, not pressures. If he gets an offer over $11M, I'd let him walk.

I think he’s pretty certain to get 12-13m dollar a year offers, but in this case I don’t think the Pats can just sit back and let him go like they would with most players. He’s a guy that does everything asked of him, and I don’t think we can allow another position to be stripped bare when we need more playmakers on both sides of the ball.

Had they taken a higher round pick DE in the draft this year, I’d be more inclined to agree, but I think some of the reasoning used in letting Cooks and Lewis go was that they saw guys coming down the pipeline (Mason and Flowers) that they wanted to try and keep.

 

[supafly]

It's sad that I would listen to Dance Hall Days over 98% of today's pop music.

I’d choose tons of new wave 80s music over today’s pop music. I would hope that most would agree with us. The quality was far superior. It’s not even close.

 

[luuked]

First off I threw this together quickly just to open the topic. I'm sure there will be major disagreements.

I've taken a tiered approach when assigning a designation to players. This isn't where they fit into the Patriots but how they compare to peers around the league and if they were an FA how other teams might view them. I left off players such as Wynn or Dawson who we have no frame of reference for. A contributor are guys who cycle in situationally here and would do the same elsewhere.

Somebody like David Andrews obviously wouldn't start everywhere but I think he could start on half the teams so he's a starter. Fringe players are guys who might be out of the league if not on the Pats.

I know with the talk on this board this week people will disagree with Brady still being elite but if he had the weapons and line Drew Brees has his numbers would be off the charts. Between the inconsistencies with the OL and WRs he's having to throw a lot of balls away. I think Gronk is still a Pro Bowl player but injuries have taken him out of Elite. I might have given Gilmore elite before last week. So that leaves Brady, Gronk and Develin as PB or above talent on this roster and Develin is obviously a niche position. Somebody made reference to this being like the 09 roster and the need to turn it over. After breaking it down I agree.

E-Elite
PB-Pro Bowl
QS-Quality Starter
S-Starter
C-Contributor
QB-Quality Backup
B-Backup
F-Fringe
ST - Special Teams
PS - Practice Squad

C David Andrews S
C/RG Ted Karras B
RG Shaq Mason QS
LG Joe Thuney S
LG James Ferentz B
LT Trent Brown QS
LT/RT LaAdrian Waddle QB
RT Marcus Cannon QS
TE Rob Gronkowski PB
RB James White QS
RB Sony Michel QS
RB Rex Burkhead S
RB Kenjon Barner B
FB James Develin PB
WR/RB Cordelle Patterson C
WR JE11 QS
WR Josh Gordon QS
WR Chris Hogan B
WR Phillip Dorsette B
WR Matthew Slater B/ST
QB Tom Brady E
QB Brian Hoyer B
LDE Trey Flowers QS
LDE Deatrich Wise C
DT Lawrence Guy C
DT Danny Shelton C
DT Malcom Brown C
RDE Adian Clayborn C
RDE Derek Rivers F
LB Dont'a Hightower QS
LB Nicholas Grigsby F
LB Elandon Roberts F
LB Kyle Van Noy C
RCB Stephon Gilmore QS
RCB Jonathan Jones C
LCB Jason McCourty S
LCB J.C. Jackson B
S Patrick Chung QS
S Devin McCourty QS
S Duron Harmon C
S Nate Ebner B/ST
K Stephen Gostkowski QS
P Ryan Allen S

I am really not sure what to do with a evaluation that has Gilmore, Ghost, Flowers and Shaq Mason as "quality starters". All three are playing at pro bowl level.

I mean ok maybe you are a harsh critic but then I gotta ask how Chung or Edelman end up in the same category. Also like you realized while typing this.. no way you can seriously evaluate Brady as elite if you are so strict with others.

 

[everlong]

I am really not sure what to do with a evaluation that has Gilmore, Ghost, Flowers and Shaq Mason as "quality starters". All three are playing at pro bowl level.

I mean ok maybe you are a harsh critic but then I gotta ask how Chung or Edelman end up in the same category. Also like you realized while typing this.. no way you can seriously evaluate Brady as elite if you are so strict with others.

I would have said Gilmore was playing at a PB level before this last game. That was Deltha O'Neal-esque. You can definitely make the argument Mason and Flowers are PB level. Mason I downgraded because of injury so maybe that's a bit unfair. Flowers is on the cusp.

Chung has been outstanding. One of the most consistent players on the roster. Edelman is getting better every game and was one of the few players who played well against the Titans.

If it wasn't for Brady this team would be 3-7 not 7-3. With all the issues on the OL he's had zero time to throw. Then you add in all the different pieces at the skill position in and out of the offense and it's amazing they've done this well. 4 of Brady's 7 picks were in and out of player's hands.

Look at what Drew Brees has in comparison. His OL is intact and he has several Pro Bowlers on that line. Thomas is the best receiver in the game right now. He has two backs that would be the number one option on better than two-thirds of the teams out there. And then he has a lot of young quick receivers who he's had for a while to work up chemistry with and a couple solid veteran TEs. If you gave Brady, or Rodgers for that matter, those tools they would be having the year Brees is.

If the Pats play the Saints in the SB and the Saints stay healthy minus a major win the turnover battle the Pats aren't winning that game. You can't take one thing away from the Saints offense. Brees and Payton will just take what you're giving. Even if you call the defenses a wash the Saints have better talent on offense.