Roster Evaluation

[everlong]

First off I threw this together quickly just to open the topic. I'm sure there will be major disagreements.

I've taken a tiered approach when assigning a designation to players. This isn't where they fit into the Patriots but how they compare to peers around the league and if they were an FA how other teams might view them. I left off players such as Wynn or Dawson who we have no frame of reference for. A contributor are guys who cycle in situationally here and would do the same elsewhere.

Somebody like David Andrews obviously wouldn't start everywhere but I think he could start on half the teams so he's a starter. Fringe players are guys who might be out of the league if not on the Pats.

I know with the talk on this board this week people will disagree with Brady still being elite but if he had the weapons and line Drew Brees has his numbers would be off the charts. Between the inconsistencies with the OL and WRs he's having to throw a lot of balls away. I think Gronk is still a Pro Bowl player but injuries have taken him out of Elite. I might have given Gilmore elite before last week. So that leaves Brady, Gronk and Develin as PB or above talent on this roster and Develin is obviously a niche position. Somebody made reference to this being like the 09 roster and the need to turn it over. After breaking it down I agree.

E-Elite
PB-Pro Bowl
QS-Quality Starter
S-Starter
C-Contributor
QB-Quality Backup
B-Backup
F-Fringe
ST - Special Teams
PS - Practice Squad

C David Andrews S
C/RG Ted Karras B
RG Shaq Mason QS
LG Joe Thuney S
LG James Ferentz B
LT Trent Brown QS
LT/RT LaAdrian Waddle QB
RT Marcus Cannon QS
TE Rob Gronkowski PB
RB James White QS
RB Sony Michel QS
RB Rex Burkhead S
RB Kenjon Barner B
FB James Develin PB
WR/RB Cordelle Patterson C
WR JE11 QS
WR Josh Gordon QS
WR Chris Hogan B
WR Phillip Dorsette B
WR Matthew Slater B/ST
QB Tom Brady E
QB Brian Hoyer B
LDE Trey Flowers QS
LDE Deatrich Wise C
DT Lawrence Guy C
DT Danny Shelton C
DT Malcom Brown C
RDE Adian Clayborn C
RDE Derek Rivers F
LB Dont'a Hightower QS
LB Nicholas Grigsby F
LB Elandon Roberts F
LB Kyle Van Noy C
RCB Stephon Gilmore QS
RCB Jonathan Jones C
LCB Jason McCourty S
LCB J.C. Jackson B
S Patrick Chung QS
S Devin McCourty QS
S Duron Harmon C
S Nate Ebner B/ST
K Stephen Gostkowski QS
P Ryan Allen S

 

[PatsFan2]

Waddle is not a quality backup he's horrible.

 

[maineman209]

My guess is that the Pats next roster change will come today or tomorrow (Wed) - waiving Crossen to make a spot for Dawson.

It's unclear to me how much potential the Pats still see in Crossen. He's averaged 10 ST snaps/game over his 7 games active (~2 units, primarily coverage). He's had defensive snaps in only 3 games - 7 total. He has 2 tackles, and was targeted once (gave up a 16-yd completion).

If he clears waivers, I'd say his chances are only about 50-50 of being brought back on the PS (perhaps replacing Wiltz).

 

[everlong]

Waddle is not a quality backup he's horrible.

On the one hand I agree, on the other players who can play both tackle positions at even a backup level are rare. He's certainly not a starter but in pinches he's played OK. Which is why teams would value him as a low price swing tackle.

 

[everlong]

My guess is that the Pats next roster change will come today or tomorrow (Wed) - waiving Crossen to make a spot for Dawson.

It's unclear to me how much potential the Pats still see in Crossen. He's averaged 10 ST snaps/game over his 7 games active (~2 units, primarily coverage). He's had defensive snaps in only 3 games - 7 total. He has 2 tackles, and was targeted once (gave up a 16-yd completion).

If he clears waivers, I'd say his chances are only about 50-50 of being brought back on the PS (perhaps replacing Wiltz).

Ya I have no clue how to rate him. If Dawson can play at a starter level that would be a great bump for the defense especially in the slot.

 

[203Pat]

Waddle is a solid swing tackle

 

[Tony2046]

I'd rank Andrews as a QS. The guy is one of the better Centers in the game.

I'd rank a healthy Oline as QS to PB. Vs Titans they were intermittently or completely without Brown, Allen, Gronk and Mason. Andrews, Thuney and Cannon had their hands full.

 

[mcmurtry86]

The quality of backup tackles league wide is awful. The only quality backup tackles in the NFL are young top prospects who haven’t quite earned a starting spot, or veterans who
were just displaced by a good young player

Waddle is a pretty mediocre (to be kind) player, but he’s about as good as you can hope for absent a high draft pick.

For example, next year, the Pats could draft an OT high, re-sign Brown and then Cannon becomes a high end one year #3 tackle before being sent packing. That’s really the only scenario in which you’re going to find a demonstrable upgrade to Waddle or whomever is your #3.

 

[mcmurtry86]

I'd rank Andrews as a QS. The guy is one of the better Centers in the game.

I'd rank a healthy Oline as QS to PB. Vs Titans they were intermittently or completely without Brown, Allen, Gronk and Mason. Andrews, Thuney and Cannon had their hands full.

Andrews is solid but he needs at least one good pass protecting guard next to him. He can be overmatched against bigger DT and often needs help in those specific matchups. Thuney is the real weak link, assuming we’re accepting Mason’s shortcomings in pass protection.

 

[Tony2046]

I still haven't figured out Dorsett. I wouldn't rank him B because his catch percentage is excellent but I don't understand why he isn't utilized more. So at worst I'd rank him as a QB but personally I'd give him an S.

 

[PatsFan2]

The quality of backup tackles league wide is awful. The only quality backup tackles in the NFL are young top prospects who haven’t quite earned a starting spot, or veterans who
were just displaced by a good young player

Waddle is a pretty mediocre (to be kind) player, but he’s about as good as you can hope for absent a high draft pick.

For example, next year, the Pats could draft an OT high, re-sign Brown and then Cannon becomes a high end one year #3 tackle before being sent packing. That’s really the only scenario in which you’re going to find a demonstrable upgrade to Waddle or whomever is your #3.

The Pats a are too slow on Defense to even think about Drafting Offense. That whole Defense minus Flowers and Gilmour needs a complete Overhaul.

 

[everlong]

I still haven't figured out Dorsett. I wouldn't rank him B because his catch percentage is excellent but I don't understand why he isn't utilized more. So at worst I'd rank him as a QB but personally I'd give him an S.

I think he's a backup on any other team as is Hogan. I think Bill likes Hogan because he's a better blocker and can run slot routes as well as outside routes. I think Dorsett gets better separation and Brady has more confidence in him. In a game like the Titans where they gave up on the run anyway I would have liked to see more Dorsett.

 

[Tony2046]

Andrews is solid but he needs at least one good pass protecting guard next to him. He can be overmatched against bigger DT and often needs help in those specific matchups. Thuney is the real weak link, assuming we’re accepting Mason’s shortcomings in pass protection.

I agree that Andrews needs one good guard next to him but disagree that Thuney is the weak link because when the Oline is healthy it's one of the better lines in the league ranking in the top 5-10 range. Imo.

 

[Tony2046]

I think he's a backup on any other team as is Hogan. I think Bill likes Hogan because he's a better blocker and can run slot routes as well as outside routes. I think Dorsett gets better separation and Brady has more confidence in him. In a game like the Titans where they gave up on the run anyway I would have liked to see more Dorsett.

I'm not sure Hogan is a better blocker than Dorsett but if he is it's not by much imo. The problem for me with judging Dorsett is I'm not sure who I'd take off of the field to get him on.

Anyway I'd like to see more of him somehow. haha

 

[jah]

Here are my disagreements with OP's assessments:

QB - Pains me to say it but Brady isn't playing elite right now...he's a "mere" Pro Bowler.

RB - I would say Michel is currently just a starter given his inconsistency and one dimensional style. White too (not the inconsistency part), despite how good he is at what he does do well. Burkhead is in no universe a starter, just a contributor.

WR - Hogan and Dorsett could be contributing if Brady wasn't so locked in on 10, 11, and 28.

OL - Karras is a quality backup, last game notwithstanding. Ferentz, of course, is a fringe player. I would also argue Brown and Cannon are just plain ol' starters.

DL - Guy is a solid starter, even pushing quality starter territory. Shelton is useless. F

EDGE - You forgot Keionta Davis. Understandable, because he's an F.

LB - Too harsh on Roberts and Grigsby. The former is a contributing quality player while the latter provides ST value (I think our ST woes are on Judge, not the players). Van Noy is a starter.

ST - Gostkowski is elite. Not his fault he's being told not to kick it through the endzone.

Finally, Slater and Ebner provide absolutely no backup value and are only ST players.

 

[tasmlab]

For example, next year, the Pats could draft an OT high, re-sign Brown and then Cannon becomes a high end one year #3 tackle before being sent packing. That’s really the only scenario in which you’re going to find a demonstrable upgrade to Waddle or whomever is your #3.

Or, sadly, the Pats could've had their high 2017 and 2018 high OL draft picks do more than just being injured.

But, I agree with drafting another one high.

 

[203Pat]

Our centers are usually undersized technique guys who get a lot of help from the guards. They’re rarely ever isolated one on one with a D tackle. That said Andrews is a solid starter for what he is and they seem to like him in the locker room as he was made team capatain in year two.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Offensive and defensive tackle needs to be addressed in the next draft.

Clemson has a ton of talented guys that could help us immediately. OT - Hyatt. DT - Wilkins or Lawrence.

Alabama has a ton of players that could help us immediately. OT - Williams. DT - Davis or q Williams.

2 dt’s And 1 OT are really needed.

 

[everlong]

Offensive and defensive tackle needs to be addressed in the next draft.

DT I'm with you. Very weak group. OT is more complicated. If they could stay healthy Brown and Cannon are good starters and very good bang for your buck.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I realy wish Bill were more agressive last year in the draft and traded up for Leighton Van Der Esche. What a difference he would have made.